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Wishful Thinking?

doingnotdoing

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Hello All. I just joined your little group, and wanted to introduce myself. I’ve been working with the Yi for about a dozen years. I’ve forayed into Runes as well, but always seem to be drawn back to the Yi.

I think I have always struggled with wishful thinking in interpreting answers, and thought I’d just toss a couple recent readings out for anyone who’s willing to take the time to consider what the Yi may be trying to tell me.

First, a little background. I’m trying to move on emotionally from the most powerful relationship of my life. We are physically separated by a significant distance, and they want to maintain a platonic friendship. Though I would never turn my back on this person, my attachment to them is so strong that I feel I need to move on completely in order to be open to new possibilities. My most recent contact with them was an email exchange over the past holidays that had me consulting the Changes perhaps twenty times (!).

They commented about missing me and wishing we could get together in these emails, comments I initially ignored. I began to feel very unhappy about ignoring these comments, so I asked the Yi what thoughts it had about my apologizing for ignoring their comments and acknowledging that I felt the same.

I received 61.2 > 42

I sent the apology, and asked several other questions over the next few days, which together seemed to confirm that my decision to move on was fundamentally correct, the last question appeared to be answered quite clearly (56.5 > 33).

I felt a measure of peace about this, thanked the Yi, and then asked if it had any final thoughts.

I again received 61.2 > 42 (!)

I received an acknowledgment of my apology shortly thereafter, and after a few more consultations with the Changes, sent a brief response myself. I then asked:

“I may never be able to release the hope, but I’ve done what I can, said what I needed to, and haven’t betrayed my feelings. The will of heaven will be correct, regardless of the outcome. Is there anything you want to add?”

The response was 25.3 > 13

How might this all be interpreted objectively, by an outsider looking in? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Sorry that this is so lengthy.
 

willowfox

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I think it is suggesting that you should not be naive regarding this person, you should realize that following them will only bring you more pain, that you are in a no win situation here, you need to be very flexible in your approach to them and see all the other possibilities that are open to you out there in the world. Do not tie yourself down to this person because most assuredly they won't stay tied to you anyway, given time they will wander away from you.
 

dobro p

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They commented about missing me and wishing we could get together in these emails, comments I initially ignored. I began to feel very unhappy about ignoring these comments, so I asked the Yi what thoughts it had about my apologizing for ignoring their comments and acknowledging that I felt the same.

I received 61.2 > 42

61.2 is the most intimate line in the Yi, the one that expresses the deepest affinity between two people. Whatever else your relationship with that person is, it's close in a way that can't be ignored or forgotten. That doesn't mean you have to be together; it just means that you're really, really close.

I felt a measure of peace about this, thanked the Yi, and then asked if it had any final thoughts.

I again received 61.2 > 42 (!)

It's drawing your attention back to the closeness between you two.

I then asked:

“I may never be able to release the hope, but I’ve done what I can, said what I needed to, and haven’t betrayed my feelings. The will of heaven will be correct, regardless of the outcome. Is there anything you want to add?”

The response was 25.3 > 13

Stay in that attitude, and you lose; move on from it, and you pick up a cow. Dunno bout you, but I'd take the cow. I have no idea what the cow refers to in this case, and I'm not going to guess. But the cow's yours if you want it; you just have to move on from 'I may never be able to release hope, but I've done what I can, said what I needed to, and haven't betrayed my feelings'. Good luck with it. If you're a person who's concerned not to betray their feelings, it might not be easy. But I've never found the Yi to dish out easy prescriptions particularly; only useful ones.
 

Trojina

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Agree with what Dobro said more or less. I find 61.2 for me always speaks of a close relationship that is close in a spiritual level. It is a deep bond, probably an eternal bond yet it doesn't mean one can be together with that person right now in the physical. I think 25.3 says it feels deeply unfortunate and unfair for you, and in a way it is - thats how life is sometimes. So maybe yes you have to move on but that doesn't lessen the reality of the bond that has been between you and this person . With 25.3 you have to figure out who is the wanderer and who is the farmer here - that which has permanence in the situation loses out to what is temporary.
 

Tohpol

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61.2 for me always speaks of a close relationship that is close in a spiritual level. It is a deep bond, probably an eternal bond yet it doesn't mean one can be together with that person right now in the physical.


I think everyone is spot on here - especially about 61.2. Trojan's rendering is a particularly accurate description, looking back at some of my own experiences and I hadn't thought about it this way before. I had this once with a relationship that was very likely precisely that: a spiritual connection that was very deep but the moving on was part of the lesson. And of course, It can be a very, very hard thing to do. Very difficult to explain to others too as it is something that is operating beyond logic and "normal" assumptions. The tough learning curves that come from the higher nature of our lessons very often have no linear bearing on the physical real time needs, if you know what I mean.

Trusting and having faith in this process is where the Yi can really help. It has given me hope that while in some situations you can never see eye to eye with that person or be with them in the physical sense, their is an assurance that this is very positive in terms of the soul - for both. And in the end - that is all that counts.

Good luck,

Topal
 

doingnotdoing

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Thank you for all of the responses. As I mentioned, it’s very difficult to be objective in interpretation when there’s a strong emotional component involved. You’ve all helped, and in a way, I might be better at objectivity that I give myself credit for.

I had felt that 61.2 repeating had real significance, and confirmed the transcendent nature of the bond between us. I’ve never been able to accurately describe the dynamic between the two of us to anyone else. My closest friends don’t understand it, and compounding things is that she is over twenty years younger than I am, so there’s an assumption that she’s part of a mid-life crisis or something. And I think the age difference also creates some significant obstacles for her, too, which I fully understand.

What I didn’t mention in the original post was that Hex 38 appeared three different times over a series of nineteen questions (38.3 > 14, 54.6 > 38 and 38 Fixed). The problem with the Opposition Hexagram is that it’s tailor-made for wishful thinking; Wilhelm spends quite a bit of time emphasizing that it often represents polarity and a condition that may be overcome, and Confucius’ comments in Book III regard it as a natural prerequisite for union. (Sigh).

Regardless, I love her unconditionally, which is why it’s so difficult to move on. I’m certain that we’re connected in a deep, spiritual manner, and that’s what I meant about not betraying my feelings – to do so would be betraying the divine somehow.

I guess I interpreted the last reading as a reminder to be true to my spirit and be careful about the ego – don’t manipulate things, don’t be reactive, just be. The third line may just be saying that sometimes misfortune happens even though someone is true to their spirit. Hex 13 resulting gives me some hope, though it may not relate to her at all.

As Topal said,

Trusting and having faith in this process is where the Yi can really help. It has given me hope that while in some situations you can never see eye to eye with that person or be with them in the physical sense, their is an assurance that this is very positive in terms of the soul - for both. And in the end - that is all that counts.

Thanks again to everyone – any other thoughts are always appreciated.
 

dobro p

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Regardless, I love her unconditionally, which is why it’s so difficult to move on.

You don't move on from unconditional love, you abide in it. But you DO move on from any kind of attachment, which is not love at all, right?
 

doingnotdoing

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You don't move on from unconditional love, you abide in it. But you DO move on from any kind of attachment, which is not love at all, right?

Ah, the essence of the problem. The feelings may be based in the spirit, but the ego likes how that feels, and is afraid it may never feel that again. So the ego dreads moving on, though the spirit knows it’s for the best, and also knows there’s really no such thing.

Life’s simple, eh?
 

dobro p

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When you start to see the stuff the ego gets up to, and when you start to see it in action, then you've already attained a touch of the detachment which is known as 'moving on'. As soon as you see yourself clinging, you're slightly free of it. When you start hating that clinging, you're more free of it.

I'm not one to talk, though.
 

doingnotdoing

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When you start to see the stuff the ego gets up to, and when you start to see it in action, then you've already attained a touch of the detachment which is known as 'moving on'. As soon as you see yourself clinging, you're slightly free of it. When you start hating that clinging, you're more free of it.

The ego's very tricky, too. Something occurred to me last night, so this morning I asked the following:

“Interesting. I shared the gist of the situation with the Clarity group, and it occurred to me last night that my angst about moving on was ego-based as well. Hex 25 is telling me to live and act from my “Self” (spirit), not from my “self” (ego). Dobro’s earlier comment about moving on from the attitude to pick up the cow may be accurate – though God knows exactly what the cow is. Acting from innocence makes sense to me; she has to deal with her own issues here too, and attempting to influence her in any way can’t help either of us. Is there anything else I Ching might add?”

30.2.4.6 > 11

Clinging moving to Peace.

Rather eerie, especially given dobro's last comment and choice of terminology. Line six appears to be directly confirming the last sentence as well. (Killing the leader being read as killing the ego).
 

dobro p

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"Is there anything else I Ching might add?”

30.2.4.6 > 11

Clinging moving to Peace.

Rather eerie, especially given dobro's last comment and choice of terminology. Line six appears to be directly confirming the last sentence as well. (Killing the leader being read as killing the ego).

A couple of notes. I call 30 Radiance rather than Clinging (the clinging comes in, if I understand it right, the way fire clings to its source of fuel, but a more important aspect of its being is its radiance). So 30 means something like docilely clinging to the source that makes you radiant; the clinging isn't a negative thing, in other words - it's more like the way a saint clings to God. And since, for me, Hex 11 is about heaven influence pervading the situation, 30>11 means something like 'radiance pervades the situation', which is pretty positive.

Finally, the ego. The ego isn't the bad guy unless it's trying to run the show. When the ego is doing its proper work under the direction of the Self, it's the sweetest most useful thing around. Associated with the ego though, is the shadow, and THAT might be the bad guy in 30.6. But the problem in dealing with the shadow is how do you actually SPOT the bugger? So, there's a possibility that the negative leading force imaged in 30.6 is something more out in the open, more perceptible - a negative trait in you that you know about, for instance. But it's just one active line of three; when you get that many changing lines, it decreases the importance of each individual line and increases the significance of the overall relation between primary and relating hex. IMHO.
 

mudpie

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I must say that this here is a rather beautiful example of a reading in action, a reading "in flow." Everybody's words are so ...lovely and heartfelt. and particularly touching is doingnotdoing's willingness to see/hear/reflect and truly make the reading(s) his own.
On Clarity, this is a 61.2 moment in time.
 

doingnotdoing

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I call 30 Radiance rather than Clinging (the clinging comes in, if I understand it right, the way fire clings to its source of fuel, but a more important aspect of its being is its radiance). So 30 means something like docilely clinging to the source that makes you radiant; the clinging isn't a negative thing, in other words - it's more like the way a saint clings to God. And since, for me, Hex 11 is about heaven influence pervading the situation, 30>11 means something like 'radiance pervades the situation', which is pretty positive.

I agree that Hex 30 images a positive idea, dobro, though Wilhelm does open the chapter by pointing out that Li embodies “to cling to something”, “to be conditioned” and “to depend or rest on something”, as well as brightness. I agree with you though, that the primary counsel of Hex 30 is a suggestion to ‘embody the light’, or to paraphrase Wilhelm, to recognize the limited condition of human life on earth and make oneself quietly dependent upon the limitless nature of the cosmos to achieve true clarity.

As far as the ego, I suspect we are working from different personal definitions of what the ego is. I define the ego as who we are conditioned to think we are, and I see wisdom as arising from who we truly are. I see ego as incompatible with wisdom, and I see the I Ching as a great tool for finding wisdom at those times it feels especially elusive.

I think this reading is interesting as it pertains to my last inquiry though. I’m seeing this as the Yi confirming my suggested path; to remain available for her in friendship if she wants to reach me, but not to focus on her as a source of happiness, to recognize the ephemeral nature of all human interactions and to cling to my higher nature. I’d read line two as a reminder to embody the light, line four as a warning about consuming myself with excitability (this is a real possibility if she expresses a change of heart), and line six to work on eliminating negative aspects of my personality while remembering to being kind to myself.

None of this is easy, but if I can do so, Hex 11 resulting promises a harmonious outcome. This outcome may not be directly related to her at all, but it does suggest a state of restful contentment, which is hopeful. I’m okay with restful contentment, but I’d still rather be restfully content with her than without her.

I’m quite sure that our higher selves (that would be hers and mine) are quite amused watching our two little human aspects come to terms with all of this. :rolleyes:

Wish me luck. As listener suggested, this is indeed a 61.2 moment, and if anyone sees something that I might have missed, or could be misreading, please feel free to point it out. If not, thanks to all for their contributions; sharing this has helped me to begin to work through it much better than I would have on my own.
 

dobro p

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As far as the ego, I suspect we are working from different personal definitions of what the ego is.

Reconsider.

I define the ego as who we are conditioned to think we are

That's pretty much exactly how I define it too.

, and I see wisdom as arising from who we truly are.

Yup.

I see ego as incompatible with wisdom

Incompatible when you identify with ego (cuz ego tries to run the show). But completely compatible and helpful when ego knows its place and serves higher self (which it is designed to do). When the chauffeur's taking orders from the boss in the back seat, everything's great, cuz the chauffeur actually knows best how to drive the car. But when the chauffeur's not only driving, but deciding where to go and what to do on the basis of a very limited education and a set of rather low-level values, you predictably get erratic driving and arrive at undesirable destinations.

and I see the I Ching as a great tool for finding wisdom at those times it feels especially elusive.

The Yi continually appeals to the part of us that tends toward higher mind; the reflectiveness required of good consultation tends to put us in or nearer higher mind; and finally, the more I use the oracle, the more I think that every hexagram text and line in it is not only an expression of the situation you're enquiring about, but is also a spiritual lesson, or aspect of the spiritual path, in and of itself. However, it's also true that whatever the Yi offers can also be completely ignored, twisted, hijacked, or otherwise obliterated by a really stubborn ego. Just take a look at a random selection of posts in the Shared Readings forum. Lots of evidence.
 

doingnotdoing

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The Yi continually appeals to the part of us that tends toward higher mind; the reflectiveness required of good consultation tends to put us in or nearer higher mind; and finally, the more I use the oracle, the more I think that every hexagram text and line in it is not only an expression of the situation you're enquiring about, but is also a spiritual lesson, or aspect of the spiritual path, in and of itself. However, it's also true that whatever the Yi offers can also be completely ignored, twisted, hijacked, or otherwise obliterated by a really stubborn ego. Just take a look at a random selection of posts in the Shared Readings forum. Lots of evidence.

So, so true. All of it. The wisdom's there, but not at all easy to spot, especially when one is emotionally invested. And chances are we're always emotionally invested to one degree or another. I know I've often looked for what I want to find, rather than what really is. It might be the most difficult aspect of understanding the oracle and really finding the wisdom it's trying to lead us to.
 

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