...life can be translucent

Menu

Withered poplar, new growth or hastening death

twilightshadow

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
62
Reaction score
9
Id like some input on 28.5, a withered poplar puts forth flowers, an older woman takes a husband. Some of the interpretations Ive read see this as a symbol of new growth, but others, such as Wilhelm, appear to see it as exhausting ones energies and causing an already deteriorating situation to deteriorate faster. Id like comments on which interpretation you follow and why you see it that way.
 

mythili

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
246
Reaction score
4
My experience with this line has been generally a brief burst of renewal for an older person through association with a younger person, could be a work situation or a personal one, but then its over after that.

Others may have had different experiences with this line.
 
S

sooo

Guest
I get it more as I get older :p. we need a withering poplars club. lol

But its cool. It's like having lunch with someone and never seeing them again. Ya know, there's no future in it, but no harm done either. In fact, it may be illuminating, or at least fun.

I suppose if a withered poplar got all riled up over it, why it might pop a green vein. But if that old root has enough life in it to be a-sproutin' new shoots, then I 'spose it can handle the occasional gratuitous expenditure. Besides, use it or lose it.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
Id like some input on 28.5, a withered poplar puts forth flowers, an older woman takes a husband. Some of the interpretations Ive read see this as a symbol of new growth, but others, such as Wilhelm, appear to see it as exhausting ones energies and causing an already deteriorating situation to deteriorate faster. Id like comments on which interpretation you follow and why you see it that way.

I think the "old" woman of 28.5 is done with all the "have-to", "ought-to", "should do" 's etc and she is following her heart. I don't see it as hastening death but keep on living. Maybe the young man its just a metaphor for graving something isn't for her "age" But maybe for her is real ( Lise uses real man instead of young man" )

the ridgepole sags, one has to find a new pathway, maybe she has to stand alone, but she stays firm to what she wants(32) . She has to renounce the world and its conditions." No blame , no praise" it is what it is.

i know from my mother's chorus group and from a friend's mother , a member in the theatrical group, many members quit because they found a lots of resistance from their family members. We encouraged them to keep doing it and although we teased them a bit about their new career ( kids I know :rolleyes:) we could see them glowing, enjoying themselves and doing something they always liked but didn't have the chance to do it.

28 is about transgressions, the action of going beyond or overstepping some boundary or limit, and the 28.5 woman is guilty of charges,;) but in my language there is also a positive meaning of this word. ( sorry don't know if there is an English word about it) .hypervasis ,Its about going beyond your limits or at list the one you believe they are. When the ridgepole is about to fall on your head and find your self among the ruins, one finds the strength to seek another place to survive and thrive.
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
"No, one body does not diminish beneath another.
There is no amorous oil to lose.
The woman bathing in her blue pool
Renews not her flesh but her readiness."

John Hawkes

The energy is life. You have to spend it or you don't get nuthin' for it.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
why the double standards between 28.2 and 28.5 ?

if we receive those lines and its not for a relationship , how else we could read old and young. I read it as incompatibility , not correct or proper, but according to whom ? the mores of the era the book was written? ( especially in 28.5) Common sense ?
 
S

sooo

Guest
why the double standards between 28.2 and 28.5 ?

if we receive those lines and its not for a relationship , how else we could read old and young. I read it as incompatibility , not correct or proper, but according to whom ? the mores of the era the book was written? ( especially in 28.5) Common sense ?

It (young/old), can and does work, all the time. And not only in the human domain, but in nature first. Yes, I think mostly the imagery came from what was then common speech, because it was the social standard to use as an example. I don't take the political correctness of it further. I think nature determines the difference between lines 2 and 5, but only as a law of averages.

I'm thinking of what Bamboo said on another thread... see if I can find it...
well, i still think the cougars and the codgers belong together. but the codgers gotta be in good shape!

That's sorta the point as I see 28. 2 or 5. Line 2 is up to it. It makes sense, there can easily be seen compatibility of needs and wants. Line 5 seems mostly to be going through the motions, when perhaps by that stage of life, one might set their sights on other, less earth shattering things.

But hey, I have clear '50's memories of my French Granny getting all dolled up for her weekly night out at the Seniors Club. Frankly, I think it was more like a swingers club, or at least that's what some other people would mumble. Didn't matter to me, I was happy to see her go out and enjoy herself, though she would knock me over with her heavy perfume on her way out. She'd seem none the worse for the wear the next morning. No blame. No praise.

I also like LiSe's line 5 reference to the older woman getting a real man, vs young man (again re Bamboo's comment of overall fitness vs youthful vigor).
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
That's sorta the point as I see 28. 2 or 5. Line 2 is up to it. It makes sense, there can easily be seen compatibility of needs and wants. Line 5 seems mostly to be going through the motions, when perhaps by that stage of life, one might set their sights on other, less earth shattering things.

.

The difference between 28.2 and 28.5 is fertile vs futile then?
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
why the double standards between 28.2 and 28.5 ?

There are a couple of takes on that. The only one with any basis in reality concerns starting and raising a family.
I don't think the Yi is offering a double standard, but rather is pointing out society's double standard, and my translation/commentary reflects that.
 
S

sooo

Guest
The difference between 28.2 and 28.5 is fertile vs futile then?

Fertility originally, but fertility in the human domain goes beyond producing offspring. It may include a fertile mind, creativity, the ability to learn, experience and grow together.

I don't think I'd consider line 5 as futile, so long as one accepts its limitations.
 
S

sooo

Guest
If I play guitar in the desert and no one hears it but me and some critters, is it a line 2 or line 5 experience?

Thus the superior man, when he stands alone,
Is unconcerned,
And if he has to renounce the world,
He's undaunted.

Jam on! is a line 2 attitude.

****, I should be a millionaire star, if only I was younger. I'll make up for it, lease a Bentley and head to Vegas. is a line 5 attitude. or - Oh, what's the use. I'll put it away or sell it. also a line 5 attitude. Doing a good thing for the wrong reason, or unwilling to do it at all. Too much compensation garbage going on to simply play for the joy of playing.

But for someone with experience to work with fresh, even virgin, material, there's lots of potential in that - line 2.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
thank you both for the clarifications


****, I should be a millionaire star, if only I was younger. I'll make up for it, lease a Bentley and head to Vegas. is a line 5 attitude. or - Oh, what's the use. I'll put it away or sell it. also a line 5 attitude. Doing a good thing for the wrong reason, or unwilling to do it at all. Too much compensation garbage going on to simply play for the joy of playing.

.

oh. never thought line 28.5 like that. Now i'm confused...

In your jamming example i could see both lines. :blush:

I was thinking the new drawing lessons I'm taking as 28.5. It requires at list 4 years to learn just the basics. I have no idea if I'll manage to do it but actually I don't bother a lot about how this will played out. But I keep practicing and I have lots of fun. It was something wanted to do it for years but couldn't make the time. Nowdays not only the circumstances allow it but I made the time too. Its a no blame , no praise thing and maybe in the long-run there will be no return of this time/effort investment, but at the end of each day the feeling is good. To some maybe it seems as a waste of time but maybe the 28.5 woman counts time in a different way or values things in a different way than the common sense.

There is something in that line (5) that maybe i get wrong. this is why I asked about the futility , because I don't see futility yet Wilhelm mentioned that.
 
Last edited:
S

sooo

Guest
Well, it could just be part of my interpretation. I think this line has the same type of up and down side of reckoning with being in the autumn of years, as 30.3 has. I think either extreme can also apply to the same aging theme, and either extreme has regret. If one goes too far in trying to be youthful, it's rather pathetic. If one never steps outside their umbrella to taste the rain, it's also rather pathetic. :)
 

elias

visitor
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
323
Reaction score
24
The fertility angle seems most logical. An old man in relative good health can spawn offspring; an old woman cannot. This is not a gender bias, it's a fact of life. On the other hand, like most gender references in the IC, it's important not to take it literally. 28.2 indicates tangible results; 28.5 may be amusing and even blameless, but indicates little of consequence as a result.

The resultant hexes are informative. 28.2 > 31 Sensing, promising marriage and all that entails (with many cautions of falling into sensuality and wanting). 28.5 > 32 Constancy: excruciatingly slow advance with many setbacks.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
I was thinking of 30.3 too, and how people react realizing that they are closer to the home plate. When we see those extremes, imo, is an reaction to handle properly enantiodromia force. Wanting back the unlived life vs adapt and keep on living isn't the same, I think.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
The fertility angle seems most logical. An old man in relative good health can spawn offspring; an old woman cannot. This is not a gender bias, it's a fact of life. On the other hand, like most gender references in the IC, it's important not to take it literally. 28.2 indicates tangible results; 28.5 may be amusing and even blameless, but indicates little of consequence as a result.

The resultant hexes are informative. 28.2 > 31 Sensing, promising marriage and all that entails (with many cautions of falling into sensuality and wanting). 28.5 > 32 Constancy: excruciatingly slow advance with many setbacks.

yes, but a woman doesn't cease to be a woman when she reaches the age that can't bear children anymore. And isn't is worth-noticing that 32 speaks also about endurance, adapting to the times ? I'm sensing that the old woman/young man union its not about a causal mating , but haven't figure out what it is.

its interesting that those hex 28 lines lead to 31 and 32


28 Wilhelm PREPONDERANCE OF THE GREAT.
The ridgepole sags to the breaking point.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.
Success.
The lake rises above the trees:
The image of PREPONDERANCE OF THE GREAT.
Thus the superior man, when he stands alone,
Is unconcerned,
And if he has to renounce the world,
He is undaunted.

31 (Wilhelm) Influence. Success.
Perseverance furthers.
To take a maiden to wife brings good fortune.

A lake on the mountain:
The image of influence.
Thus the superior man encourages people to approach him
By his readiness to receive them.

32( Wilhelm)
DURATION. Success. No blame.
Perseverance furthers.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

Thunder and wind: the image of DURATION.
Thus the superior man stands firm
And does not change has direction.
 
Last edited:

twilightshadow

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
62
Reaction score
9
If its translated as an old woman takes a young husband, I can see both sides. A younger man can certainly help revitalize a womans life as well as make her feel good about herself, but on the other hand she could exhaust herself trying to keep up with him.

I could also see it as being how we approach the situation. Maybe we exhaust our energies if we expect too much out of it? Applying it to other situations besides relationships, maybe the fertility thing is a way of saying the situation is not as fertile as we think, that there is not as much potential in the situation as we had hoped.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
looking at Wilhelm's comments

28.2 From the point of view of politics, the meaning is that in exceptional times
one does well to join with the lowly, for this affords a possibility of renewal.
lowly might be the young girl ?

28.5 Applied to politics, the metaphor means that if in times of insecurity we
give up alliance with those below us and keep up only the relationships we
have with people of higher rank, an unstable situation is created.

might be that the young man is the one Wilhelm talks to and not to the old woman?

32.5 ( fan yao) supports that , i think.

Giving duration to one's character through perseverance.
This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man.
 
S

sooo

Guest
Wilhelm, for all his brilliance, had a habit of making morals out of molehills. Not that his comments were bad or even necessarily wrong, but they certainly were biased toward Christian morality and traditional mores.

twilightshadow:
I could also see it as being how we approach the situation. Maybe we exhaust our energies if we expect too much out of it?

:bows:
 
S

sooo

Guest
that there is not as much potential in the situation as we had hoped.

I really think you are onto an important catalyst here, as in your other quoted statement, in getting to the root of the cause of preponderance of things which shakes us and uses us up: expectations, anticipations, life changing circumstances, self doubt, feeling overcome, something which feels bigger than life, exaggeration, dramatic, exuberant, depressed, oppressed, all can be wrapped up in 28. That's why one must be prepared to stand alone, without all those influences, and all those things we'd hoped for or feared.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
126
I expect nothing. I fear nothing. I am free ~ N . Kazantzakis
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
looking at Wilhelm's comments ...
32.5 ( fan yao) supports that , i think. ...
Giving duration to one's character through perseverance.
This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man.
Hi, María:

I believe that the sexual imagery is clear not only for the elder man, the elder woman but also for the fan yao 32.5. See yourself:

Chinese received text for 32.5:

heng2: constant / regular / persistent // duration / long lasting /
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / ...'s /
de2: virtue / power / character / nature / endowment /
zhen1: omen / divination // perseverance / chaste /

fu4: woman / wife /
ren2: man / person / people /
ji2: fortunate / propitious / lucky /

fu1: husband / man /
zi3: son / child / seed / egg / fruit // Count / Earl /
xiong1: unfortunate // fierce / terrible / ominous /

Reading heng2 as an active verb we can translate it as making constant, persistent one's power, strenghtening one's character, acquiring more reliability. Fixing.


FIXING ONE'S POWER OMEN.
Fixing one's power previsibility.

or, if your prefer

FIXING ONE'S NATURE PERSEVERANCE
Fixing the perseverance or lasting of our nature.

婦人 fu4 ren2 means female people, women, maybe wives.


WOMEN LUCKY.
or wives lucky.
They will succed in acquiring long lasting or endurance.

夫子 fu1 zi3 can be read as son of the man or as master, like in Kong FuZi, Confucius, the Master Kong.


MASTERS UNFORTUNATE.
Masters, maybe intellectuals, like [Con]fucius will not suceed.
Cubs of husband will not succeed.

It is compliant with the chinese folklore by which women are biologically stronger than men, sexually dangerous. Women defeat men like water suffocates fire.

In making endurant her power the woman will succed, because it is in her own nature. While the man, for his own nature, will not last too much, except with meritory discipline.

That's why the succes of an elder woman marrying a tall man provoke less admiration than the success of an elder man marrying a young woman.

In the woman is NATURAL, in the man has actually MERIT.

h.32 ENDURANCE
The Virtue of Long Lasting

The character heng2 can be seen as HEART and SUN traveling from one horizon to another, or travelling between the EARTH and the SKY. His cyclical progression is quite predictable and reliable.

The ancient character for heng2 has two concentric circles, but that's anoter story ...

Yours,


Charly
 
Last edited:

Yasmin

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
279
Reaction score
125
I see 28.5 as not necessarily about age and reproduction, but as a matter of maturity, emotional maturity. An emotionally mature woman with an immature man. A "parent-child" relationship. Where one partner is in "child mode", in some way not able to engage as an equal, as an adult in the relationship, not able to take responsibility for his contribution to a situation. Could be unable to engage in problem solving, to listen respectfully, and express feelings in a non-threatening, constructive way, or to share financial costs etc... Sometimes its not just immaturity, but there can be an underlying condition, eg mood swings, or some kind of disability, alcoholism... It takes a lot of endurance, a lot of giving. And the parenting partner never gets all their needs met... Hence the "infertility". That said, the joy we get out of a relationship is a very personal matter. If other essential needs are met, for a a deep connection, companionship, fondness, sex whatever...,if it fills a void, a need to be needed... Who is to say what is right or wrong? 28.5 says: this is what it would look like, is that what you want? Its a choice, there is no blame,no praise. Anyway, this is another take on it! I
 
Last edited:
S

svenrus

Guest
Id like some input on 28.5, a withered poplar puts forth flowers, an older woman takes a husband. Some of the interpretations Ive read see this as a symbol of new growth, but others, such as Wilhelm, appear to see it as exhausting ones energies and causing an already deteriorating situation to deteriorate faster. Id like comments on which interpretation you follow and why you see it that way.

On the 19 of october 2011 I got 28.3.4.5.6. asking for my old mothers situation and my place in all that. She passed away four month later. The whole of hexagram 28 I think can be seen in the light of what is stated in Ta Chuan about hex 28 as an image of a coffin for burials. [Wilhelm/Baynes book II. Ta Chuan ch. II, History of civilization. v. 12, page 335 in the 1968 ed.]
 

ginnie

visitor
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
4,342
Reaction score
309
Now, don't laugh, but I've gotten this line several times when the situation is my use, as an older woman, of a smartphone or computer technology. When I asked the I Ching if I should buy a Blackberry, it gave me this line. I am the withered willow and the smartphone or the computer is the young yang. Using such technology extends my working life and allows me to accomplish more, but I guess it could also be seen as depleting my energy. It's a question of balance or moderation, I think.
 

ginnie

visitor
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
4,342
Reaction score
309
By the way, I only kept the Blackberry for about a year. I was trying to simplify my life, not get more involved with gadgets.
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
I've read that ejaculation a minimum of twice a week assists in protecting an aging guy's prostate. There's regeneration of cells if the proverbial younger woman motivates him - that younger woman being mostly an attitude, an openness, and a freedom. It works for both.


Old trees weather in interesting ways. A person wears their life on their face, and in their words; their body listens to their mind, or minds. Seeing something sprout from an old tree makes me feel good, but there's not much future potential. So, it's ok to and ok not to use what qi you have to show outwardly, even if at the expense of shortening the duration. There's something to be said about the quality of living over the duration... but it's a personal choice to decide their own balance. Nothing lasts forever.
 

viviank

visitor
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
81
Reaction score
3
I see 28.5 as not necessarily about age and reproduction, but as a matter of maturity, emotional maturity. An emotionally mature woman with an immature man. A "parent-child" relationship. Where one partner is in "child mode", in some way not able to engage as an equal, as an adult in the relationship, not able to take responsibility for his contribution to a situation. Could be unable to engage in problem solving, to listen respectfully, and express feelings in a non-threatening, constructive way, or to share financial costs etc... Sometimes its not just immaturity, but there can be an underlying condition, eg mood swings, or some kind of disability, alcoholism... It takes a lot of endurance, a lot of giving. And the parenting partner never gets all their needs met... Hence the "infertility". That said, the joy we get out of a relationship is a very personal matter. If other essential needs are met, for a a deep connection, companionship, fondness, sex whatever...,if it fills a void, a need to be needed... Who is to say what is right or wrong? 28.5 says: this is what it would look like, is that what you want? Its a choice, there is no blame,no praise. Anyway, this is another take on it! I

I know it's an old thread but for me that's excactly turn out to be. A relationship with underlying condition with mood swings and an non adult behaviour. I wish I would see this on time. But then again maybe I would n't take it so seriously, cause sometimes what you want you want. I haven't regret the experience but I would be more guarded on my expectations. You know, just enjoying things for what they are.
 
B

butterfly spider

Guest
Hex 28.35 to 40
Feeling like a very withered old woman. Reading the threads and thinking that I need to rejuvenate somehow
Xx
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top