Withered poplar, new growth or hastening death

[susieq777]

Yoga 28.2.3.5

I got this when asking if taking up a yoga practice would help me as much as when I was practising six years ago. I thought it was interesting that the ridgepole was sinking in the middle bookended by the withered men sprouting a shoot at one end and the old woman sprouting flowers at the other. Gives me a visual of doing a yoga pose with the top chakra and the bottom one represented, with great results (but don't overdo it).

Also made me chuckle that the Yi is so very discourteous sometimes No damm respect

 

[ginnie]

I regard it as bad luck when the ridgepole bends in line 28.3.

 

[charly]

I regard it as bad luck when the ridgepole bends in line 28.3.

Hi, Ginnie:

I remember that some translators say that when the ridgepole bends upwards it´s auspicious and when it bends downward it´s ominous. Which has little to do with mechanics but something to do with emperor´s hand thumb up or down.

Here a quote from the point of view of mechanics:

A History of Chinese Science and Technology, edited by Yongxiang Lu
page 297-298
(available in Google Books)

​

Maybe better seen here:

https://books.google.com.ar/books?i...e&q="Height and width ratio of beams"&f=false

(to be continued)

all the best,


Charly

 

[ginnie]

Thanks Charly! I have always thought that the meaning in 28.3 is that the ridgepole bends in the middle from the weight of its burden. The ridgepole is bent to the breaking point. In terms of the question, I think it means over-straining the body, which would be painful.

 

[bradford]

No blame, no praise.
Good for our lovely, plucky old lady! With wrinkle goop and war paint, and some
would say not enough else, she goes on the hunt and brings home a healthy, young
buck. How discreet can you be when you kick up your heels like that? There will be
no children of course, and no praise from the horrified gossips, and one day he will
move on somewhat wiser. In great times life knows its allies, sometimes by warmth.
The value of such an arrangement is not so commonly known, but its worth is clear
to those so arranged. Why even care what a gossip will think? How could this last?
Can it be more than one final fling if the flower saps the tree’s strength and renewal
is not from the roots? A last hurrah or maybe hooray! Why not ask this one instead:
Who dares to measure the time? And is the eternal really all that it’s rumored to be?

 

[Olga Super Star]

I just got this line asking: How to get respect?

The first thing that came to mind was that I will meet a younger respected man and will gain respect through this connection. After all, People in a couple are way more respected than singles. And most people ask whether you’re with someone or not before ill treating you.

Only, will this match last?

The second idea was that my effort of gaining respect wouldn’t last, and after all who cares since I’m about to die.

Third, if I want to become respected I have to use some energy and do things!

 

[charly]

I just got this line asking: How to get respect?
The first thing that came to mind was that I will meet a younger respected man and will gain respect through this connection. After all, People in a couple are way more respected than singles. And most people ask whether you’re with someone or not before ill treating you.
Only, will this match last?
The second idea was that my effort of gaining respect wouldn’t last, and after all who cares since I’m about to die.
Third, if I want to become respected I have to use some energy and do things!

Hi Olga:

I don't know if the Changes is answering to your literal question or to an hidden aspect related with it.
But see what the Changes actually says. 28.5 traditional chinese received text, and a pretty literal translation, not of course the better one:

枯楊生華。
ku1 yang2 sheng1 hua2
DRIED POPLAR GROWS FLOWERS (1) (2)
If the dried poplar is giving birth to flowers...
(The flowering wood shows that it's not totally dried, that it's still alive.)

老婦得其士夫。
lao3 fu4 de2 qi2 shi4 fu1
OLD WOMAN GETS HER SENIOR HUSBAND. (3)
... the elder woman will get her senior man.
(It can speak of formal marriage or of another type of arrangement.)

无咎无譽。
wu2 jiu4 wu2 yu4
NO BLAME NO PRAISE. (4)
No wrong, disreputable.
(Not a fault but doesn't fit well with some social expectations.)
​

As you can see the Changes has nothing against uneaven couples, only that social standards were more demanding with women in morality and appearance. Nothing allows to foresee if the end will be happy or if the story goes to last more or less. For the Changes the story is open ended.

The Changes is not saying that NO PRAISE / DISREPUTABLE is because the relation cannot last long or because can lack of fertility. They are only justifications of prejudices active in the social context, the Changes only points to their existence. We can try to manage them, if we know how. Some people prefer to ignore them. Do you remember «The Mauvais Reputation»?

The moral might be: «Don't be too dependent of social expectations but, if reputation matters, try not to challenge other people with your attitudes. Give respect, ask for respect, dont't accept abussive attitudes or conducts and enjoy while it lasts. For life is f_cking uncertain and nothing lasts forever. If the almost dried poplar can be sprouting, budding, flowering, even maybe bringing fruit... Why worry?

All the best,

Charly
___________________
(1) The supposedly DRIED POPLAR, I believe that as any thing in the Changes, is a living being and actually an omen of VITALITY, maybe of rejuvenation. If SPROUTING (28.2) is an omen for a MAN. If FLOWERING (28.5), an omen for a WOMAN. It has its logic, images of male and female genitals, but that's another story ...

(2) Given the ROOFING imagery almost all along H.28, I believe that the DRIED POPLAR in 28.2 and 28.5 is the same RIDGEPOLE in 28.0, 28.3 and 28.4. All omens associated with the behavior of the roof carpentry. Adding 28.1 and 28.6 the imagery of CARPENTRY turns on the imagery of LOVEMKING: Lovers' encounter outdoors, in the sacred forest. The bed, a straw mat on the floor. The roof, the tree branches like a canopy. At the end the sad experience of extinguishing passion. But that's another story, requiring maybe a translation of the six lines and a deep reading between lines and contexts.

(3) The woman is not necessarily old but ELDER than the man. The character woman (woman radical + broom) is different from the used in 28.2 that means wife (the radical woman + hand grabbing her by the neck, meaning possession). Don't worry, maye it's only an affectionate expression of the strength of the bond that unites them. Or, must be said, for some men every woman can be a dangerous criminal, not only in ancient China...

Foreign Office minister Mark Field has been suspended by Downing Street after video footage showed him manhandling a female climate change protester who had interrupted a City of London event...
... Widely shared footage taken at Thursday night’s Mansion House dinner showed Mr Field removing one of several dozen Greenpeace activists who had interrupted the event by pushing her against a column before taking hold of the back of her neck and marching her out of the room...
Source: Financial Times London June 21 2019
Link: https://www.ft.com/content/97033412-93f0-11e9-b7ea-60e35ef678d2

(4) 譽 yu4 means praise, reputation, say, the concept or opinion of the main agents of social control, not always prejudice-free, often using different standars judging the behavior of women and men. Of course men are weaker we have to be more lenient with them.

Ch.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Of course men are weaker we have to be more lenient with them.

Ch.

I hadn’t read that last line properly.
So I must assume you are a woman? I have always thought Charlie was a guy

you say, ‘ask for respect’ and ‘don’t accept abuse’. But how? that’s exactly what I was asking Yi. A suggestion on how to get that.

it is striking that years ago, when working in a shop, the guy in charge (not the boss but his second) would order food for him and the other shop assistant when it was the three of us. but not for me. And he did that with the shop s cash I suppose! Which is perfectly fine since he didn’t have to buy me dinner. The lack of respect was that he made ME go and get their food.

he would phone the restaurant, discuss with the other girl what they would have: chicken? Rice? Spicy?, order it and then give me the money and send me outside to get their food.

I would bring it back and they would eat warm food in front of me. No actually they were half hidden while I kept being at the counter in case customers came in.

Could I have refuse to go and get their food? Possibly. But that would have put me in a worse position perhaps.

the fact is I was the only one he made to do this. I found it humiliating.

People who get respect are not even asked to do such a thing. It’s sort of bullying. So my question was how to avoid that people act like this towards me in the first place.

In school there are always specific people who get bullied and I don’t think they get respect if they reject the abuse. The person who is really respected is the person who never finds himself in such a position.

I was the only person in that same shop who didn’t get paid. How do you justify that?So it was him but it was also the boss who didn’t respect me - nor my job.

luckyly enough, I managed to get the moneythrough a lawyer but it took me 5 years and three different lawyers -and I even had to meet the judge in court. What a waste of time and money!!!! the other shop assistants didn’thave to go through.

that was my first job after graduation. Now I have stopped looking for a job. As my Mom once said, if you have to work for free youare better home with a cup of tea.

But how frustrating not being able to have a place in society because You are not seen as a person worth of respect! Like when people are talking in a room and they leave as soon as you get in.

 

[charly]

... I hadn’t read that last line properly.
So I must assume you are a woman? I have always thought Charlie was a guy

Hi, Olga:

I'm a boy! Should I have said «...men are weaker, people must be more lenient with them» ?
«Charly» (from the english «Charlie») in my country is a popular diminutive for Charles, it's a male nickname.

... you say, ‘ask for respect’ and ‘don’t accept abuse’. But how? that’s exactly what I was asking Yi. A suggestion on how to get that.

The Changes says that there is no fault in establishing uneaven couples but there are prejudces afecting elder or widowed women. For traditional chinese thought women chastity is the safeguard of family morality, women are responsible for the morality of all family members. Men enjoy more tolerance. Then: be careful with people who claim the prerogative to grant good or bad reputation, dont challenge them but behave your own way.

... it is striking that years ago, when working in a shop, the guy in charge (not the boss but his second) would order food for him and the other shop assistant when it was the three of us. but not for me. ... Could I have refuse to go and get their food? Possibly. But that would have put me in a worse position perhaps ... I found it humiliating.

You could have taken it naturally, without feeling offended, with less suffering. Or what if you had asked, «do I also bring something for me with this money? why not?» Or maybe «I'm hungry too!»

People who get respect are not even asked to do such a thing. It’s sort of bullying. So my question was how to avoid that people act like this towards me in the first place... But how frustrating not being able to have a place in society because You are not seen as a person worth of respect! Like when people are talking in a room and they leave as soon as you get in.

Bullying goes against shy children who seem harmless to their comrades and their teachers. Children who also seem to suffer a lot with what people do to them... But you're right, the Changes says nothing about how to behave... that's another story.

Surely the Changes want to emphasize that there is no fault from yourself. There is no blame for which you have to pay with so much suffering. There is no reason to flee from the world. That all that would be counterproductive and doesn't worth.

There are many sources available in the net to get ideas on how to deal with bullying in different contexts.

All the best,

Charly