Yi, the Circle of Hexagrams and Map Triangulation: An Experiment in Method (Part 2 of 2)

[peters]

Continued from “Yi, the Circle of Hexagrams and Map Triangulation: An Experiment in Method (Part 1 of 2)”

[NB: Due to character count posting limits, I’ve broken the present post into two parts. This is the second and concluding part.]

So, I queried: “In reference to my immediately prior query, do you also advise that I first experiment with a box similar to that described in the second portion of ch.4 of Diana ffarington Hook’s The I Ching and Its Associations before proceeding to employ the method to determine the place of my best next livelihood?” 51.1.6>35. The changing lines in particular are (tr. Hilary):

Line 1
‘Shake comes, fear and terror.
Then afterwards, laughing words, shrieking and yelling.
Good fortune.’
Line 6
‘Shock twists and turns,
Watching in fear and terror,
Setting out to bring order: pitfall.
The shock does not reach your self,
It reaches your neighbour –
No mistake.
There are words of marital alliance.’

I interpret the casting as follows: Keeping in mind that the box method described requires sliding around or ‘shaking’ the button in the box in order to randomize its position for ‘dowsing’, here, Hx.51 is quite apt. Now, 51.1 is well enough, but 51.6 suggests getting tied up in knots and that this ‘setting out to bring order’ by rigorously testing the method will lead to pitfall, the closing of the way. The fourth and fifth text lines of 51.6 suggest that the point is not to test for oneself but to reach one’s neighbor – the larger aim of locating my best next livelihood. The final text line points to this directly, ‘marital alliance’. I think the way that this might be understood is that the position of line 1, signifying beginnings and that of line 6, signifying endings, are important. A small amount of ‘box testing’ is alright, but it’s easy to carry it too far and miss the point, getting caught up in twisting and turning and second-guessing.

Just to be doubly sure, I then queried: “In reference to my two immediately prior queries, do you advise that I proceed directly to the map determination method and skip ‘box testing’ altogether?” 19.4>54. The changing line in particular is (tr. Hilary):

Line 4
‘An end nearing,
No mistake.’

I interpret the casting as follows: Notice the repetition of “To set out to bring order: pitfall” from 51.6 immediately prior and again here in relating Hx.54. As for the primary Hx.19 and changing line, 19.4, I think this has to be taken as positive affirmation to proceed with the map determination method. The phrase ‘an end nearing’ or as Karcher puts it, ‘the culmination is nearing’, is highly suggestive and promising as to the anticipated outcome of the method. It is interesting to see the parallel between the relating Hx.54 ‘Marrying Maiden’ and Hx.44 ‘Coupling’ in the originating query. I think here that Hx.54 ‘Marrying Maiden’ relates to ‘box testing’, particularly given the repetition of the key phrase from 51.6.

All well and good. The next question is to determine what map to begin with. Given my situation, the obvious choice would be a map of the continental United States. So, I queried: “Please advise as to whether, in employing the method of location determination detailed in the second portion of ch.4 of Diana ffarington Hook’s The I Ching and Its Associations to determine the place of my best next livelihood, it is suitable to begin with a map of the continental United States.” 62.2.5>28. The changing lines in particular are (tr. Hilary):

Line 2
‘Going past your ancestral father, meeting your ancestral mother.
Not reaching your ruler, meeting his minister.
No mistake.’
Line 5
‘Dense clouds without rain
Come from our Western altars.
The prince hunts with tethered arrows,
And gets the one living in a cave.’

I interpret the casting as follows: Here, I think I that 62.2 is suggestive of starting modestly, in conjunction with the overall meaning of the primary Hx.62, “Small Exceeding”. This is a step-by-step approach, in which the end goal cannot be achieved in a single step. First, I meet the minister, then eventually the king. This is the first map I will need to consult, not the last. 62.5 is highly pertinent. I am literally like the ‘prince’, hunting with tethered arrows. That I am successful, ‘gets the one living in a cave’, strongly suggests that my proposal is correct. It is interesting to note here that the primary hexagram is “Small Exceeding” and the relating hexagram is “Great Exceeding”. As the relating hexagram, this is highly pertinent to my current situation: “Fruitful to have a direction to go. Creating success.” To have a direction to go is exactly and quite literally the pint of the query. So, I will proceed with a map of the continental United States.

Alright, so the next step is to select my two points from which to divine directions for map triangulation. In general, it makes sense to a) have them on the perimeter of the area of interest, and b) be on approximately opposite sides. Consulting my map, I picked San Francisco, California and Savannah, Georgia. Nothing special about either city, but they make suitable triangulation points (and, no, I don’t live in either). I entered the Shao Yung sequence into a spreadsheet, carried out the determination of angular direction for each hexagram – both its center angle and two bounding angles on either side – and double-checked everything for correctness. The standard way of measuring angles on the unit circle is counterclockwise (going ‘north’) from ‘east’ (the right side of the x-axis).

Here’s where it starts to go sideways. I determined, although Hook does not clarify this, that I would only consider the primary hexagram for purposes of the method to be applied and ignore the changing lines and relating hexagram. I made two queries, the first relating to San Francisco, the second to Savannah, as follows: “Employing the method of location determination detailed in the second portion of ch.4 of Diana ffarington Hook’s The I Ching and Its Associations with a map of the continental United States to determine the location of my best next livelihood, please advise on the direction of this location, as measured from _____________. I will consider only the primary hexagram and ignore changing lines for this calculation.”

For the first query, from San Francisco, I received: 29(.2)
For the second query, from Savannah, I received: 30(.2)

It is fascinating that these two triangulation hexagrams are both doubled hexagrams, are the precise inverses for one another (in terms of yang and yin lines), and even have the same changing line (although we are not counting that for present purposes). Consulting my spreadsheet, the center angle for Hx.29 is 191.25° and for Hx.30 is 11.25°. The first is a bit south of due west, going out over the Pacific, while the second is a bit north of due east, going out over the Atlantic. Inspection of the angles reveals that they are 180° apart and therefore the directional lines are parallel and will never intersect. But it is rather worse than this. The projected vectors from San Francisco and Savannah both point away from one another, neither go over the continental US and the two lines, plotted on a flat map projection, are actually parallel. So, no relevant triangulation point three times over – in principle, it couldn’t get any worse.

This is too odd, both in the connection between the hexagrams of the original casting and in the manner in which the vectors don’t work. This doesn’t just not work, but fails to work in a rather uncanny way. And yet, the preliminary readings regarding the method and initial map appeared to be highly positive. So I queried: “Would you please explain to me why the location determination castings just completed were unsuccessful?” 4.6>7. The changing line in particular is (tr. Hilary):

Line 6
‘Striking the ignoramus.
Fruitless to act like an enemy,
Fruitful to resist enmity.’

It’s interesting that I should get Hx.4 here. Changing line 4.6 seems to be pointing back at me, my frustration with my ignorance, of not knowing what happened or why it didn’t work, and encouraging an even keel in response. More than that, I cannot say. The sense I have from the relationship between the two directional hexagrams and the oddness of the directional plotting is that Yi wasn’t wrong but rather simply not going along with the inquiry. But if so, why the multiple positive indications with regard to the method?

Puzzled, I queried again: “Please advise further as to why the location determination castings did not result in a triangulation.” 25.3>13. The changing line in particular is (tr. Hilary):

Line 3
‘The disaster of disentangling
Maybe someone tethered a cow –
Travelling people’s gain,
Townspeople’s disaster.’

Well, Hx.25 is certainly apropos of the situation in hand. Indeed, the two vectors failed to ‘entangle’. However, taken in conjunction with Hx.13, ‘People in Harmony’, this suggests that ‘disentangling’ may have an entirely different intention here.

So, I queried again: “Was there something wrong in my phrasing of my query in the location determination castings that did not result in a triangulation?” 44.4>57. The changing line in particular is (tr. Hilary):

Line 4
‘In this basket, no fish.
Rising up, pitfall.’

This suggests a timing issue. ‘In this basket, no fish’ suggests that the opportunity I seek is not presently available. Querying once more: “Please counsel further as to whether I may successfully employ at a later date the location triangulation method previously tried.” 13.3>25. The changing line in particular is (tr. Hilary):

Line 3
‘Hiding away arms in the thickets,
Climbing your high mound.
For three years, not starting anything.’

The first, outstanding point to note here is that the casting 13.3>25 is the exact reverse of the casting slightly prior to it, 25.3>13. Further 13.3 speaks specifically as to the time not being right: ‘For three years, not starting anything.’ This can be read in conjunction with 25.3: ‘The disaster of disentangling’, possibly an ill-omen with regard to the location determination castings done previously.

What all this, taken in totum, suggests is that the method may well be sound, but the timing, for the intention stated, was premature. To identify a given opportunity, there has to be a pinpointing not only in space but in time as well. Compare that to a lost object location determination, where typically the issue of pinpointing time is not critical (although in some cases, it might well be).

Let me know what you think.

All the best,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Very good!

I have had little joy using Yijing to find lost things. But, I did not persevere.

It would seem to be saying no.

I'm not a lot of help on this.

Be well

Warmly

Kevin

 

[Gmulii]

I'm not sure this is the way to go with this.
Seems like trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail. It may work, but its unlikely and even if it does will take so much effort its unsustainable.

We tested some years ago hiding items around the house then using the 24 mountain rings from the Lo Pan to figure out where they were based on the branches with the lines. Seem to be working well. I haven't tested since then and I'm sure there was a lot more that needs to be known to do it professionally with accuracy, but it was accurate enough to know its something along that lines.
Yet as this would require to relate the branches to the degrees and that can be somewhat time consuming(1-2 minutes, but in todays world people usually want even faster results), can do it in more general way. Instead of 24 directions, can just use the basic 8 with the trigrams(Li-south etc.)

All that in different form has been used in Feng Shui for thousands of years, and while the precise way to use it may need some experience, its a lot more likely to bring good results with time then using the text.

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

I have had little joy using Yijing to find lost things. But, I did not persevere.

Yes, Hilary has remarked in the past elsewhere in the forum to similar effect regarding the general futility of employing Yi for lost objects, while Harmen has cryptically noted that finding lost items with Yi is a ‘specialized subject’. I have employed Yi twice to find lost objects and I would have to rate it successful on both occasions, but much more evident in hindsight as to its intent. My most recent attempt involved looking for a replacement electric doorbell button purchased over a year prior and not found in any of the places I would normally have stored such. I inquired of Yi regarding its whereabouts and received 1.4>9, with changing line:

‘Someone dancing in the abyss.
No mistake.’

I had no idea what this meant but sat on it, hoping that clarity would eventually dawn. Two weeks later, I suddenly recalled that what I thought was the replacement button had actually been used in installation shortly after its receipt, but a plastic tab had snapped off and I had thrown it away. In other words, while I had ordered two and thought there was one remaining to be found, in fact it had been thrown away long ago. “Someone dancing in the abyss” then appeared to be a rather brilliant reply by Yi, but one that was completely baffling on the first pass.

All the best,

Peter

 

[peters]

Dear Gmulii,

I’m not sure this is the way to go with this.
Seems like trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail. It may work, but it’s unlikely and even if it does will take so much effort its unsustainable.

Thank you for your very interesting reply. I’m not bothered by the effort, which is actually not that bad and well worth it for large questions of real import if the results are reliably forthcoming.

We tested some years ago hiding items around the house then using the 24 mountain rings from the Lo Pan to figure out where they were based on the branches with the lines. Seem to be working well. I haven’t tested since then and I’m sure there was a lot more that needs to be known to do it professionally with accuracy, but it was accurate enough to know it’s something along that lines.

This is quite fascinating and would seem to cut against your earlier statement about the approach I outlined being unlikely to work, as the approach is a fairly straightforward extension of lou pan usage, which Hook discusses extensively in the referenced section of her book. As I understand it, the lou pan typically will include the circle of all 64 hexagrams mapped onto the cardinal directions, so they are already there in Feng Shui application, it would seem. But I claim no knowledge of that particular discipline.

Yet as this would require to relate the branches to the degrees and that can be somewhat time consuming (1-2 minutes, but in today’s world people usually want even faster results), can do it in more general way. Instead of 24 directions, can just use the basic 8 with the trigrams (Li-south etc.)

Again, the time doesn’t worry me at all. That is really the least of my concerns here. The question is, “does it work?” Your above description of informal experiments with a lou pan would anecdotally suggest that it well may. As for substituting the 64 hexagrams with the directions based on the 24 mountains or 8 trigrams, this is a rather huge lost of precision for a minimal gain of speed. A bad trade, it would seem.

All that in different form has been used in Feng Shui for thousands of years, and while the precise way to use it may need some experience, it’s a lot more likely to bring good results with time then using the text.

I’m not sure what text you are referring to here. I am explicitly not using the Yijing Zhouyi oracular text for this method, but simply casting to determine a primary hexagram and then associating that hexagram with a degree of direction in space via the Shao Yung ‘pre-heaven’ arrangement as typically found on traditional lou pans.

 

[kevin]

Hi
We had a 'Clarity group try' some months back.... The book was eventually found... It had been lent to a neighbour I think. None of us got it, HB included.

I speant a year fiddling about with Dear D F Hook, on and off. It was not a fruitful time.

Be well

Kevin

 

[peters]

We had a 'Clarity group try' some months back.... The book was eventually found... It had been lent to a neighbour I think. None of us got it, HB included.

Dear Kevin,

You may be amused by my first experience of consulting Yi for a lost object, in this case, my wife’s iPod Nano, which is small, about 5cm square and thin. We were fairly certain it hadn’t left the bedroom, but had looked everywhere for it. Upon querying Yi for its location, I received 59.2>20. As for the primary and relating hexagrams, the iPod Nano has been dispersed and from my vantage I was looking for it – ‘seeing’. As for the changing line: ‘flee to your support, regrets vanish’, this read like a clue. A ‘support’ could be the floor, the chair, the bed.

I queried once more for additional details and received 13.3>25, whose changing line begins ‘Hiding away arms in the thickets’. My wife independently found the item shortly after this second casting. It was on the floor of the closet opposite the bed, amongst some clothing that she had earlier taken from the bed and put in the closet. So, on the floor or ‘support’? Check. ‘Hiding away in the thickets’ of clothing? Check. Curiously, I found it tangled in a shirt – ‘hiding away arms’? A bit of Yi wordplay, perhaps?! And of course, ‘people in harmony’ suggests my wife, relative to me, thus that it is still in the bedroom, albeit in the ‘wilds’ of the closet.

As W.A. Sherrill and Wen-Kuang Chu observe in their An Anthology of I Ching:

“…it is only with hindsight that one truly knows what the I Ching meant.”
“…the answer given by the I Ching is frequently not fully understood until after the event has occurred or the action has taken place.”

All the best,

Peter

 

[Gmulii]

Dear Gmulii,



Thank you for your very interesting reply. I’m not bothered by the effort, which is actually not that bad and well worth it for large questions of real import if the results are reliably forthcoming.



This is quite fascinating and would seem to cut against your earlier statement about the approach I outlined being unlikely to work, as the approach is a fairly straightforward extension of lou pan usage, which Hook discusses extensively in the referenced section of her book. As I understand it, the lou pan typically will include the circle of all 64 hexagrams mapped onto the cardinal directions, so they are already there in Feng Shui application, it would seem. But I claim no knowledge of that particular discipline.



Again, the time doesn’t worry me at all. That is really the least of my concerns here. The question is, “does it work?” Your above description of informal experiments with a lou pan would anecdotally suggest that it well may. As for substituting the 64 hexagrams with the directions based on the 24 mountains or 8 trigrams, this is a rather huge lost of precision for a minimal gain of speed. A bad trade, it would seem.



I’m not sure what text you are referring to here. I am explicitly not using the Yijing Zhouyi oracular text for this method, but simply casting to determine a primary hexagram and then associating that hexagram with a degree of direction in space via the Shao Yung ‘pre-heaven’ arrangement and as typically found on traditional lou pans.

Ops... My bad, I thought you were trying to use the text to get what direction would be best then triangulate the best from each site. : )
If you are using the Hexagrams to directions as its in XKDG Lo Pans, that works yea. : )

 

[peters]

Oops... My bad, I thought you were trying to use the text to get what direction would be best then triangulate the best from each site. : )
If you are using the Hexagrams to directions as its in XKDG Lo Pans, that works yea. : )

Dear Gmulii,

The confusion is perfectly understandable. There was a lot of oracular text-based consultation in my posting, but this was all either setting up the method or querying afterword as to why the method apparently hadn’t worked. The method itself is just: a) pick two reference points, b) cast for a hexagram specifying directionality from each reference point, c) convert the hexagrams to angular directions, d) map triangulate to determine an intersection point (or small bounded area). That’s it. Once you get a bit of practice with it, it is straightforward and fairly efficient to apply. Does it work, though? Your reply gives me some reason to think that it may. Further testing is required . . .

P.S. I had to look up “XKDG Lo Pans”, which led me to the charmingly titled book: Xuan Kong Da Gua Not Exactly for Dummies (!) You clearly know more about the topic of lou pans than I do. Are there any good references in English that you might recommend? One I’ve seen that looks well-recommended is Stephen Skinner, Guide to the Feng Shui Compass: A Compendium of Classical Feng Shui.

 

[Gmulii]

Dear Gmulii,

The confusion is perfectly understandable. There was a lot of oracular text-based consultation in my posting, but this was all either setting up the method or querying afterword as to why the method apparently hadn’t worked. The method itself is just: a) pick two reference points, b) cast for a hexagram specifying directionality from each reference point, c) convert the hexagrams to angular directions, d) map triangulate to determine an intersection point (or small bounded area). That’s it. Once you get a bit of practice with it, it is straightforward and fairly efficient to apply. Does it work, though? Your reply gives me some reason to think that it may. Further testing is required . . .

P.S. I had to look up “XKDG Lo Pans”, which led me to the charmingly titled book: Xuan Kong Da Gua Not Exactly for Dummies (!) You clearly know more about the topic of lou pans than I do. Are there any good references in English that you might recommend? One I’ve seen that looks well-recommended is Stephen Skinner, Guide to the Feng Shui Compass: A Compendium of Classical Feng Shui.

Indeed, this is the book, in my humble opinion = Xuan Kong Da Gua Not Exactly for Dummies.

Can be complex, though, but with enough enthusiasm its not difficult to apply it once we get the initial idea if we have Lo Pan or download one from the net.
If we go into the complexity of that part of the Feng Shui systems(they are called San Yuan, meaning they work with time) I would go like this:
Easy >to Complex
8 Aspirations > 8 Mansions/Houses > Flying Star > Xuan Kong Da Gua > Flying Star Purple White Script

Depending how deep we go into Flying Star, if we go into the Forms as stars and all the other stuff that is actually important part of it, XKDG may be before or after Flying Star. : )
Some people will set QMDJ in there also, but lets skip that for now.

Skinner is very good source for the basic ideas. How the forms affect stuff, the water dragon ideas.
Its interesting to mention, that the full water dragon classic is in the net as well here:

水龍經 - WATER DRAGON CLASSICS 1

As translated by Micheal John Paton

www.davidyek.com

It has introduction by Dahong, one of the rare situations when we can read info from him that he actually intended the reader to understand. : )

In XKDG the idea is we have 2 points. One is facing(everything has a facing, that is what is in front of us and we can see basically, also can be seen as Crimson Bird or whatever we associate with South and Li/Fire Trigram). The other is Qi Mouth, the nearest source of Qi.

We make Hexagrams for both, then we study their relation. Depending on time sometimes hexagram that may seem beneficial, may not be and the other way around, as there is a lot more then the hexagram itself going on(there are element/phases and stars and other stuff).

The text with the hexagrams is also slightly different when used in that context. Its basically the same idea, but when used for this specific purpose they can have some other meanings involved to.
Much of that can be seen here:

Feng Shui

store.joeyyap.com

(flying yao means changing line)

However, keep in mind this is just reference. It won't contain any explanation how its suppose to be used, other then some very general ideas, but it iwll give the meaning of each changing line(while the 64 Hexagrams cover the ring, each of them also has each of its lines, and positioning something on it is suppose to bring different outcomes as well, although we don't use it in practice as its very small degree that we need to fit into).
In the book its explained where the changing lineas are. Basically if you look at the rings there is a ring with circle and dots. From what I remember the circles were beneficial direction for changing line, while the dots were not so beneficial.

Anyway, I understand all this can be overwhelming, so lets simplify it. : )
Skinner has very good books for fundamental Feng Shui principles. I can recommend his "KISS" guide to Feng Shui. Sounds silly, but its very good book for the fundamental ideas.
He has 2 books for Flying Star, but doesn't have anything for XKDG that I'm aware of.

Then for XKDG there are 2 books I'm aware of. However, I haven't read the other one, yet and I don't plan to, as in my view in:
"Xuan Kong Da Gua Not Exactly for Dummies" there is all we need to apply the system if we already have XKDG Lo Pan(and they are easy to be found in the net).

References for different parts of XKDG there are more then what I linked above, all from Joey Yap. There is good stuff, but the info in there won't be enough to do in practice. It will just be a lot of reference materials
XKDG book Hung Hin Cheong covers all needed in my humble opinion, although may seem small for its price.
All his books may seem small for the price, but there is so much vital info compressed in there, it really shouldn't be judged by that in my humble opinion and I keep recommending them in Five Arts forums as well.

I'm big fan of his books, he also has translated the fundamental Flying Star classics in English, and also added very good commentaries on how that is understood and applied in the schools in Asia. They are expensive, but the info is amazing for people interested to go deeper into the systems.For people that are just starting is probably not the best thing to read yet.
Anyway, so this book for XKDG is good.


Other sources... There is a wiki page, but it wasn't very accurate in my humble opinion.
And w talk about it as well, in the five arts forums, lately in this topic:

XKDG for apartment blocks

XKDG for apartment blocks

fivearts.info

There have been others through the years but finding them will be challenging. Can see some practical ideas there where we share what has worked and what hasn't from what we tried and stuff like that.

XKDG comes with date selection. There is only one book for that, but I don't think it can be bought anymore, also on that specific topic its the only thing that will come up, so no point going into that. ze ri is the pinyin for date selection. So XKDG date selection is one way of saying it, another would be XKZR(xuan kong ze ri).

I made an app some time ago based on Hung Hin Cheongs book. I don't want it to stay online, as I can't ask him for permision to use the material, but if someone gets a lot into the system and needs it I usually upload it for a day or two, so they can use the system without having to cover all the calculation. Its just a Lo Pan with some explanation, we add 2 hexagrams or 2 directions and it will show how and if they connect.
But anyway, overall,in my view, the best book on it is the one by Hung Hin Cheong from what I'm familiar with. And while the hexagram meaning can be used with the directions directly, its not exactly how the system is applied, as the foundamental idea is that we look at relation between 2 directions, the nearest source of Qi and the facing of the object/house/place/door.

 

[peters]

Dear Gmulii,

This is a wealth of information you’ve shared here. Thank you very much for your thoroughness in presenting the topic! I can already see, perusing the chapter highlights of Xuan Kong Da Gua Not Exactly for Dummies, that this is a world unto itself. Strange that I should have stumbled across the very book so readily.

 

[Gmulii]

We included XKDG Lo Pan in our site some months ago, I think its good idea to post in the topic here as well, even if it was with some delay...

It can help a lot with the system in my view, although, of course, images of similar Lo Pans or more detailed once can be found all over the net. I plan to update it someday if we find some practitioner to work with, as I avoid doing stuff without link to someone that does it professionally.

Here is link:

Xuan Kong Da Gua XKDG 玄空大卦 Calculator

Five Arts Calculators,Liu Yao(Wen Wang Gua), Bazi and XKDG, currently.

www.bright-hall.net