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Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings-Hexagram 44

S

sooo

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Will read; thank you.

You know, I just looked at my saved and online versions of Wilhelm's 37 and I don't see what I was referring to, re trigrams as family members. I'll have to look through my hard copy series six, though I know I read it in an earlier version than this. If someone else knows where it's located, please join in meanwhile.

Do you have a Wilhelm book edition, Lisa?
 
S

sooo

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Located on page 274, Discussion of trigrams, the Family of the Primary Trigrams. I could type the first section of this here, but it can also be found in the Bagua charts, here. It can be found in several other places, including or as the King Wen sequence, but lest this degenerate into chicken and egg arguments (yin/yang etc), I'll leave it at that for you to explore for yourselves. My point being, I didn't just make this family of trigrams up.
 

Liselle

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Do you have a Wilhelm book edition, Lisa?

I have a single-web-page version of Wilhelm which I "borrowed" (ahem) from online somewhere. It contains an introduction to each hexagram, and the Judgement, Image, and line translations/commentaries. The intro to hex 37 says this - is it what you're talking about? (It seems to be about lines, though, not trigrams.)

"The hexagram represents the laws obtaining within the family. The strong
line at the top represents the father, the lowest the son. The strong line in the
fifth place represents the husband, the yielding second line the wife. On the
other hand, the two strong lines in the fifth and the third place represent two
brothers, and the two weak lines correlated with them in the fourth and the
second place stand for their respective wives."

From what you're saying in your other comment, about "page 274" etc. - I don't think this is that. (Since mine is a single webpage, and doesn't have page numbers, it's hard to tell.)

I didn't think you made it up :). I've vaguely heard of the "family" thing; I just don't know anything about it - nor do I have a reference (that I know of, though as you're saying it's probably findable somewhere. When it's not so late at night :zzz:.)

(Thread: derailed. Sorry - we're probably mostly done. It is surprisingly difficult to yank a tangent up and take it elsewhere. This doesn't really seem to fit the 37uc thread either - probably needed an entirely new "home" (har har).)
 
S

sooo

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The "here" link to wiki provides the bagua family trigram associations and several other associations with each trigram.

I'm sure the 44 thread can withstand the discussion extension without being derailed. Really, Lisa, a tangent? Gosh, how rewarding to have shared it.

If someone wants the information, assuming they're not already familiar with it (I think most are), it's readily available, online and elsewhere. Yes, we're done.
 

Liselle

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The "here" link to wiki provides the bagua family trigram associations and several other associations with each trigram.

OH. Thank you! (My laptop doesn't have good color - links look a lot like the text around them. Although when someone types "here" at the end of a sentence, it might be, you know, a clue...)
 

GoldenN

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I want to add something to 44 as I've noticed a trend with the times I receive it.

I'll just give a couple of examples: About 12 years ago a friend of mine, female - bold that night but probably not ordinarily - saw a man enter the club she was in. He emanated a kind of power and the people he came with sort of bowed down to him reverentially. So she approached him and seductively proposed they go somewhere to be together. They whisked off in his limo and for weeks, were engaged in one of those dreamy affairs.

But things turned very dark. He wasn't a good person at all and for the next couple of years, he cheated in front of her, drugged her and generally abused her good graces so completely. She never really dated again and now lives in a small village, being kind to gentler people.

She was 44 that night.

A friend of mine wanted to come over for the holidays. I was cooking fish in the oven and received 44 with that line about a fish for one but not for a guest and laughed. She looks like the image that appears alongside the text for 44. She is bold and seductive. But also like the Cicada as has been referenced throughout this site. However, it, like it does the cicada no favours, does her none either. No one sticks around because she can't be trusted. The boldness of the approach means the males are always uncertain as to who or what she is and they inevitably leave because they never do figure it out.

In both these cases, these are 44 scenarios that are not at all good for the 44 female, with respect to how it can play out. A lot of the missed romantic connection stories I read here are stories that sound like they began with 44. Maybe some began with maligned 1. Maybe 16. But mostly they read like the aftermath of a 44.

There's also something about the seduction element about 44, mentioned quite a lot - that something immense will happen and however good it feels for a little while, it ultimately consumes you - if that consumption can somehow be made good, then great. But I think there's something annihilating about it - and it's probably led me to a slightly more puritanical view of 44 - or Dangerous Liaisons.
 
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Trojina

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I want to add something to 44 as I've noticed a trend with the times I receive it.

I'll just give a couple of examples: About 12 years ago a friend of mine, female - bold that night but probably not ordinarily - saw a man enter the club she was in. He emanated a kind of power and the people he came with sort of bowed down to him reverentially. So she approached him and seductively proposed they go somewhere to be together. They whisked off in his limo and for weeks, were engaged in one of those dreamy affairs.

But things turned very dark. He wasn't a good person at all and for the next couple of years, he cheated in front of her, drugged her and generally abused her good graces so completely. She never really dated again and now lives in a small village, being kind to gentler people.

She was 44 that night.

Er do you mean she reached her 44th birthday that night ? Or are you saying in your opinion of her she was 44 because you have the idea 44 is always literally about a bold seductive woman. Did you actually cast 44 about the situation ? It's just you haven't said what the question was ?


A friend of mine wanted to come over for the holidays. I was cooking fish in the oven and received 44 with that line about a fish for one but not for a guest and laughed. She looks like the image that appears alongside the text for 44. She is bold and seductive. But also like the Cicada as has been referenced throughout this site. However, it, like it does the cicada no favours, does her none either. No one sticks around because she can't be trusted. The boldness of the approach means the males are always uncertain as to who or what she is and they inevitably leave because they never do figure it out.

In both these cases, these are 44 scenarios that are not at all good for the 44 female, with respect to how it can play out for the female. A lot of the missed romantic connection stories I read here are stories that sound like they began with 44. Maybe some began with maligned 1. Maybe 16. But mostly they read like the aftermath of a 44.

There's also something about the seduction element - that something immense will happen and however good it feels for a little while, it ultimately consumes you - if that consumption can somehow be made good, then great. But I think there's something annihilating about it - and it's probably led me to a slightly more puritanical view of dangerous liaisons - called dangerous for just this reason!


You haven't said what your question was ? Whether something immense will happen or not depends on the question....
 

GoldenN

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What I'm trying to say - obviously badly ---

is that this situation described is an illustration of what I can see 44 being. I say this due to the many women on this site who seem to describe what reads like a 44 in the aftermath.

This could be plainly a socialization thing - that women are socialized to come onto forums to ask about liaisons gone wrong where men have other methods. But then this is no different to our being culturally conditioned to expect to play particular roles ie: the bold female seizing initiative, that when thrown off tradition and without a clearly defined way of keeping communication channels open, leads to a sort of chaos/destruction/consumptive power that I associate with the gender version of 44. Ie: what was observed in the time of the Zhou dynasty is still relevant today.

And what I'm saying is that there's a sort of lesson in 44, to take note of. That actually these cultural conditionings do still exist - bold young woman is still a 'type'.

So though 44 represents any form of dangerously tempting and seductive situation - or at least, this is how I see it - it's also relevant to actually relate it directly to the seductive female because we're so conditioned, still, to associate her with the femme fatale - in that she might not get what she bargained for and the femme fatale is, as tradition, always discarded. And hence, on the end of a long running narrative, 'she' ends up on a forum, unsure why she receives no communication from her lover/ex-lover.

This is merely a thought, in addition to what's already here about 44.
 

Trojina

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So though 44 represents any form of dangerously tempting and seductive situation - or at least, this is how I see it - it's also relevant to actually relate it directly to the seductive female because we're so conditioned, still, to associate her with the femme fatale - in that she might not get what she bargained for and the femme fatale is, as tradition, always discarded. And hence, on the end of a long running narrative, 'she' ends up on a forum, unsure why she receives no communication from her lover/ex-lover

Ah I see where you're coming from ! Yes exactly ! I'd thought you were referring to women on this thread, but you mean women on the forum in general. Yes I mean I would always have imagined most women get the message if they don't hear from a guy....But women who post in Shared readings don't seem able to get or process that message....and there are a lot of them. And indeed it seems quite 44ish that they would hang on so, I guess for the reasons you refer to.

OTOH in that book 'He's just not that into you' it seems more like women have got quite bad at picking up signals of disinterest or they fail to understand that if a man is interested he will be in touch. Well it's not just a man /woman thing if anyone is interested in you they will be in touch. Being dropped suddenly by someone who has 'picked you up' is indeed a kind of 44 experience ....in terms of being discarded/short lived. I see now what you mean by many of the threads on the forum seeming like 44 'in the aftermath'.
 
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GoldenN

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Yes, I'm glad the clarification was successful. Writing with a headache isn't always a useful idea.

But it shouldn't even be that these men don't reply. It seems to be a dynamic. A 44 situation that has no steady growth, no roots, really and yet a tremendous intensity. The result is these bizarre attempts at balancing something (I theorize that however radical an act it's often an attempt at balancing what is an opposite extreme), usually the communication. The woman seeks communication absolutely, the man withdraws, nothing is said in the right way, it's all a little desperate and overzealous.

I'm not even sure it's about men not being interested and women being interested. More like totally overwhelming confusion where each involved defaults to a culturally learned position. Men = strong and silent, without always the right tools to share emotion. Women = overly conditioned to teach and share feelings, emotional connectivity. Supposedly too, women are 'better' at communicating their feelings and so, use this license to deconstruct a male's life if he's not forthcoming with the requisite emotional information (that, yes, again, he's not very well conditioned to know how to share). There's also some degree of women refusing to believe that a male isn't totally in love - again, conditioning. Women are conditioned to be pursued, desired, not ever rejected.I think a lot of it, in the case of the rejection 'He's just not that into you' is cognitive dissonance.

Haha, yes, much of the forum feels 44 in the Aftermath. Perhaps there should be a section dedicated to 44 Aftermath resolution and support :blush:

:bows:
 
B

blue_angel

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I don't think it can be narrowed down that simply. In either case. For men or women. Its individual. One has to walk a mile in another's shoes to really understand what the individual is feeling or thinking, in order to understand why they might take certain actions that don't appear healthy or socially correct. It takes a lot to put ourselves in another's position and really try to understand. Even then its just guess work. And that guess work is based off of your own experiences and research. And that research, although may be done with good intention to help the "average" if there is truly an average, get over certain social barriers. Still is guess work. Based on their experience and perhaps certain individuals.


I feel its more complex than that. Its wider, more open field. I don't feel it can be narrowed down to man is one way and woman is another. Its individual. That's the issue I have with books like "he's just not that into you" or "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus"? There's good information. Its a good study. But its not all answers fits all. Its not like this is the answer. I found it! It works for me, it'll work for everyone. No, it works for some. That's why they keep writing more books.


That's why I feel its a good thing to try to not judge another based on perceptions. You never know who you're dealing with, what they've been through, or why. Or how they are coping with it. And one of the greatest things that humbles me, is just as soon as I decide to judge another, I will surely find myself in their position. And when it happens, I hardly ever react or cope the way I thought I would. There's just so many angles... I think that's why I enjoy Tao. To me it says there's no "right" or "wrong". There's cause and effect. Its an experience of life. Its a path. Your path. Take it. Live it. Experience it. And much more...


I don't think I have ever received 44 unchanging though, to go back to the theme. I will have to look back. But I have received plenty of 44 answers with lines changing. The most I can say about it, is it seems 44 comes with a lot of energy. Sometimes its so much, I feel sort of powerless. Either way it seems with 44 I learn a lot. Sometimes the outcome is nothing like I would have thought. There has been plenty of good that stemmed from a 44 type reading. I think when I come to 44, I now sort of step back, and give respect to that power. Its like when I go swimming in the ocean. Knowing there's sharks in there and this is their space, they are only sharing. I have to have a certain respect for that powerfulness.


I really like your "might inspire you or might enslave you" on 44 Trojina. And for me it fits with the sharks and Bethany Hamilton's story. She could have stopped surfing and allowed this misfortune to enslave her, but instead she stays inspired, and in doing so, inspires many. Definitely a power to 44 that calls for recognition and respect.
 
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Trojina

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What GoldenN said here was very synchronistic for me since I happened to have cast 43uc, pair of 44, on the very topic he was writing on. The hordes of women on forums who appear to be dealing with '44 in the aftermath'.

I wrote of how my cast of 43uc linked in with what he said here http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...ging-Castings-Hexagram-43&p=201497#post201497



Re what you said Blue Angel about not being able to categorise men and women so clearly....well I do agree with you BUT it is an indisputable fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority of people, on the forum, dealing with being discarded, and refusing the unpalatable reality of that, '44 in the aftermath' as GoldenN described it, are women. It does seem to be a particular behaviour of women that when 'discarded' and not accepting that...refusing it.....will insist their readings mean what they want them to mean and so on and use other people to prop up that crumbling reality. That's what makes me cross and that's why I asked the question I did on the 43uc thread. It isn't the fact that such women find it hard to accept the truth that bugs me, it's more the fact they try to drag everyone else into it and make the readings mean what they want. My 43uc answer confirms quite clearly I need to stay out of that kind of thread.
 
S

sooo

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on the lighter side

[video=youtube;QGHjjrWIiyM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGHjjrWIiyM[/video]
 
S

sooo

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I think this is not an either/or scenario, but that Golden and Blue Angel make equally valid points.

It's like asking, is destiny fixed or is there free choice? Or, are we mechanical beings or do we have a soul?

A man is part woman as a woman is part man. We are the same but different, both as a subspecies and as individuals. As a subspecies, a woman is usually more given to an emotional predominant disposition, but as individuals quite the opposite is not that uncommon. Men generally express emotions differently, but quite the opposite is not uncommon. Both experience 44 in a completely personal way, yet the fundamental tone and frequency is the same for each. It is not the subject but the effect upon the subject which constitutes each hexagram.
 
B

blue_angel

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I love that Bruce. That's awesome. I agree with your post. It makes good sense for me. Oddly, has anyone else noticed we have quite a bit of men's threads lately, that even the men admit the 'roles' are reversed in their situation? Sometimes they sound so much like the woman 'role' you describe that I am not convinced they are men lol. Not that it matters much. Just something I noticed, and was wondering if anyone else had. I find this at work as well. I agree with your post Bruce. Thanks
 

Trojina

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Copied a post I liked from Ragini from here http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...og-post-Hexagram-44-insect-bites-and-nuclears



My experience of 44 has been something sneaking up on me, so I can relate to the insect bite. It's as if the itch is sneaking up and if I scratch it, it's going to get worse.

But I think another parable comes to mind which has been closer to the truth for me. It's the story of the camel and the tent owner - do you guys remember it? - here it is. http://camelphotos.com/tales_nose.html

This has been my experience of 44 (I have been on both sides of the table) and not just for people, but for habits and tendencies as well.

There was a time when even though I was surrounded by a lot of people, I was feeling very lonely. I was in desperate need for human conversation, but - in hindsight - I was a bit like the Marrying Maiden who would throw herself at any situation that provided the potential for conversation.

It was a strange situation, the more I tried to talk to people, the more I felt I was repelling them. Every time it happened I would ask the Yi, and I remember getting 3 hexagrams consistently: 44, 4, and 54. I often got 44 when my desperation to interact with people was being interpreted as sneaking up to them. I have also received 44 when I felt someone was sneaking up on me. In both cases the 'sneaking up' was not sexual, just something unwanted.


Great camel story
 

Liselle

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"[Name of cat] vomited all over her mat. What should I know about this?" 44 unchanging.

My cat is elderly, so of course anything that goes wrong scares me. She's pretty scampery, despite a couple health problems, and I wouldn't describe her as frail or sickly. Still, I worry.

At first glance this reading just made me worry more, until I remembered from this thread that 44 can be a powerful influence, but one which is over quickly. I'm hoping it was just something which didn't agree with her, or a small amount of hair which she had to get rid of the only way she can, and nothing worse than that. (Thank you, thread :).)
 

themulberrytree

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In one dream, a demon (of sorts; I've never been able to pin it down) tried to make me submit to it by squeezing my head. It told me that I would be its friend, I would submit to it. It told me that one boy who stood for justice and rules but was completely inflexible had submitted to her. The other boy, who had had more compassion, hadn't. She hadn't mentioned that. And then morning came, and I was reading an old newspaper clipping, trying to find out more about this demon.

The headline said that she had just wanted a friend.

In another dream, my childhood doll was trying to kill me. I tried to kill it back, because while it had left at the beginning of the dream, I was sure it would come back for me. I wanted to end it once and for all. And lots of stuff happened, but point is, I found out at the end of the dream that she had been abused. That was the reason for all of her behaviour. I spoke with her mother and her mother was a poor woman who hadn't known what to do with her daughter. And then I went to speak with the doll, who had become human, although dressed in black. She was laying in my bed and crying. I asked if she had been abused. That's where the dream ended.

I remember when I first had the first dream, my therapist asked me how I felt about the demon, and I was like, 'Well, it wants to be friends, but we can't be friends because it's obviously dangerous' and she was kind of like, 'Yes, but...' I guess because she was aiming for the idea of integration.

But I've been feeling like a more functional human being, I've wanted to review my dreams, and I've just gotten a wonderful dream book from my friend. I also read the sentence that 'empathy can hurt', and I thought that was a really nice statement, because that's what understanding the doll was like. I didn't want to understand her because it would hurt. I couldn't be mad at her anymore. But now I feel like even if it hurts, it's worth it, as demonstrated by the dream.

So I asked how I could understand the woman (demon) and the doll. I received Hexagram 44, and at first I was very confused.

"Temptation? Oh, no. Does that mean I've got the message all wrong and I should avoid these figures?"

But now I've read through this thread and I understand, or at least I think I understand. I think that the dreams and the readings should work together, so I think it's about understanding the figures, but not letting them control me. Exercising precaution. Letting them inspire me, but not 'marrying' them, so to speak.
 
T

taoscopy

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Wilhelm explains that the yin line at the bottom represents a young woman seducing five men. That's really a sexist view of this hexagram since you can also view five men abusing the young woman by putting a lot of pressure on her.
 

Trojina

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Just to clarify, without the wish to sound bossy....but we are in 44 ;) this is part of a whole series of threads on people's own experiences with hexagrams in their unchanging forms. Hence they aren't asking for help here, they are sharing.


Wilhelm explains that the yin line at the bottom represents a young woman seducing five men. That's really a sexist view of this hexagram since you can also view five men abusing the young woman by putting a lot of pressure on her.

It isn't sexist if you view it as a metaphor. The young woman symbolises something that may lead a man astray. However since this is a symbol, a metaphor it might as easily apply to anything that can lead us astray. Obviously a woman might cast 44 about a man, or a friend, or a mother in law, or anyone, anything, that is intrusive or derails her agenda for good or for ill. We can mate with her , we can't marry her. It may be great to have your highly dramatic mother in law to visit....a lot of fun to mate and exchange new ways to think. However one would be advised not to marry her. Marrying in this situation might be having her come to stay permanently ! Not advised !
 
T

taoscopy

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Yes, I was commenting on this post:

She was laying in my bed and crying. I asked if she had been abused. That's where the dream ended.

It's clearly about the abusive relationships side of 44, sorry I should have made it clear from the start.
 
B

butterfly spider

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got hex 44uc today (also hex 4uc yesterday) - all the fours, forty four...

I asked a question that if I posted it here, you would possibly (?) send for the men in the white coats, so wont say exactly (pm me if you want to know).

I asked about my relationship with someone (that I have known for an awfully long time). I am very hestitant, almost worried about reconnecting here. Best left alone, do not bring this into my life, too abstract, too much right now.

Hex 44 was very apt in the answer here.
x
 

moss elk

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A phrase that comes to my mind about 44 is: More than you bargained for

A woman wanted to hire myself and another man to move all of her belongings from her one bedroom condominium into a storage unit. We agreed to the work. On the day of, we began to realize that it was much bigger than we initially thought: a tardis condo. She had many large closets (filled with large furniture!)
We could not believe the amount of stuff she had. It was like a clown car, it just kept coming. We had to rent a second moving truck and both were filled to capacity. What we thought was a one day job turned into two long days. AND Things just kept going wrong, the other man and I kept looking at each other saying, 'this can't be happening' small calamity followed small calamity, again and again over the two days until the very end of it. (concluding with, "Oh, I packed my checkbook in one of the boxes, I'll have to mail checks to you. :rolleyes:) Gremlins were working overtime. At the end of day two when I got home I asked 'what the bleep was that?!" Answer 44 unchanging.

(P.S. a week later the checks did arrive,
but honestly we were just glad it was over)
 

Lavalamp

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The Prince issuing commands is telling the world what he wants. Temptation - if YOU are the 44 - is also being persuasive, about expressing what it is you want and trying to get the other to follow. And in 44, you are actually very skilled at doing that. It is not a situation where you can get what you want by just grabbing it. You have to convince, sweet talk, - tempt - the other party.
If there are no ulterior motives, and everything is firmly correct, this could be a good thing and work out. But you cannot tell just from sweet talk alone what the substance of someone trying to convince you to do as they please is, so you shouldn't decide on this basis alone. It may be all to their benefit and not to your at all, they could be just trying to use you. You don't know really. Hence the advice not to marry. So I think this describes the action of convincing it of self, which is such a powerful, heady state of change it deserves a hexagram all it's own...
 

susieq777

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I asked today "What do I need to change in my attitude towards money?" and received 44UC.

I intensely dislike receiving 44 :) But I *think* what it may be saying is that I need to separate my abhorrence of the money *system* which keeps us enslaved so, from money itself, which is really just a tool and which I believe is meant to flow, be a method of transaction, not something to hoard.

I am quite conscious of those things though but maybe the Yi is suggesting that I hold unconscious beliefs that money itself is evil, because I understand how evil the system is within which it operates.

But I'm not entirely sure I'm reading it right.
 

Trojina

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I asked today "What do I need to change in my attitude towards money?" and received 44UC.

I intensely dislike receiving 44 :) But I *think* what it may be saying is that I need to separate my abhorrence of the money *system* which keeps us enslaved so, from money itself, which is really just a tool and which I believe is meant to flow, be a method of transaction, not something to hoard.

I am quite conscious of those things though but maybe the Yi is suggesting that I hold unconscious beliefs that money itself is evil, because I understand how evil the system is within which it operates.

But I'm not entirely sure I'm reading it right.


I'm not sure either but money is a channel for change, some say a vibrant living channel for change, carrying energy like arteries and rivers do so I think this

which I believe is meant to flow, be a method of transaction, not something to hoard.

...sort of connects to the woman one cannot grasp at.

This post made me retrieve a book I found by William Bloom called 'Money, Heart and Mind' in which he writes


'This idea of money and economics is limited. It ignores deeper and more interesting perspectives. The relationship between human beings and money is far more juicy than formal economics would allow.


I also have this sense of the true spirit of money. it is far more than a unit of account and a store of value. As an agent, a medium and a language that passes between human beings, it is a creative facilitator of human relationship and human community, a facilitator of ingenuity, productivity and wealth. it is a creative medium that serves human relationships..


(could any of this be said about 44 ?)


And I have this sense of the goodness of money. I experience a great thrill at being part of our complex civilisation - and this is a civilisation whose material life-blood is money. I know full well about the ecological and humane disasters which have been created by the modern world, and I recognize that we need to reverse immediately the idiocies and greeds which destroy life. Nevertheless I am excited by the technology, by civilization and by money.'



Interesting I bought this book for just 10 pence in a bucket in a charity shop :D


Hah I was about to write my opinion which is that it seem to me the need for money is something that deflects people from their goals and creativity rather than facilitates it then I realized my opinion could also tally with 44 as an intrusive thing, a demanding thing that interrupts and throws one off track.


I've seen healers for example become so distracted by need to advertise and make money they become depleted which kind of defeats the object.


However I don't think my view is more true than William Bloom's view since afterall it isn't a truth we can really know about. Money is an intangible in a sense, you can't grasp it and often it seems of meaningless value, so capricious the way it comes and goes and it doesn't come and go according to merit. People making youtube videos on makeup are jetting off all over the world, nurses can't afford a holiday...what's that all about really. Sounds 44ish doesn't it ?


It's also clear that what costs more isn't always better, that's a myth, probably a 44ish one too.


All this reminds me irresistibly of 22 yet the only connection I can see between 44 and 22 is that 22 is exactly half of 44.
 

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