Yuan2 - not sublime

[simple_complexities]

Bruce quote:-

"Then after, when we leave, we take the waterfall with us in us. Someone asks us, what is a waterfall? We?re left with words to try and explain it. Or, we could say, go and sit quietly for an hour at the waterfall and you will understand. Or perhaps they will recognize the waterfall in you?"

Excellently said.

 

[cal val]

Hmmmm...

I find it interesting that no one in this conversation has connected sublime to subliminal and sublimate and from there gone back to the source and come back out again. Or that no one has considered the definition of the prefix sub- (under, below) in context with the definition of the word.

I've always viewed the sublime in the Yi in connection with subliminal. It's the 'spirit' emanating from below the 'conscious' level... raised up from below the surface. It's very much about the 'spirit' revealed or the 'spirit' 'visible' in the man or the message. I put spiritual in quotes here because I mean it in the broadest sense of the word.

I went searching for more understanding, input sublime sublimate subliminal in the google search window and found these page (as well as many others):

http://www.wdog.com/brian/Scriptorium/sublime_etym.htm

http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-sub2.htm

Love,

Val

 

[bruce]

Val, I agree. However, what seems to be in question here is not the word sublime but the word Yuan2. Ewald's original assertion (I believe) is that they are not necessarily one and the same. So the problem becomes one of a meaning that may not be literally translatable through the use of our English (or German, Dutch, etc.) language. So how can it then be understood?

As far as subliminal and your articles, they do speak to original, underlying, or as your say, spirit of something or someone.

Personally, I think sublime does nail the meaning of Yuan2 as well or better than any other word I've heard for it, just from the associations and context in which it's used in the the Yi. But not everyone may agree.

 

[hmesker]

On oracle bone and bronze inscriptions 'yuan' is mainly used for meanings like 'first, primary'. It also can mean 'large'; not in size, but more in importance. This meaning of 'primary' and 'important' can also be seen in another less known meaning of 'yuan', namely that of 'primary wife' (as opposed to concubine).
On bronzes we find regular mention of the phrase 'yuan nian', 'first/primary year', and it was probably related to some kind of sacrifice. The 'yuan heng' we find in the Yi could (stressing 'could') be related to such a sacrifice. Speculation.

Nevertheless, it is a bit useless to look at a Chinese character without a context. It is mainly the context which decides the meaning of a character.

 

[bruce]

"Nevertheless, it is a bit useless to look at a Chinese character without a context. It is mainly the context which decides the meaning of a character."

Thank you, Harmen!

 

[cal val]

Hi Bruce...

Thanks. Well I opened up my own can of worms here. 'Original' isn't really part of what I see sublime meaning in the context of the Yi, unless one wanted to consider the spirit as a person's origin. I don't. Original is just too limiting for what I'm trying to say here. Yet 'original' is one of the meanings of the character that Ewald used for yuan2.

One of my co-workers sometimes translates for me, and he passed my office just as I was contemplating this, so I chased after him. I asked him for a definition, and he said, of course, it would depend on the character, and then he rattled off a few possibilities starting with dollar, and then he said or it could be like the Yuan in Yuanfen which means 'good karma together' or 'serendipitious'.

So I went googling, of course, and I found Yuanfen... http://www.encyclopedian.com/yu/Yuan-fen.html So... the character for yuan2 http://asl2.dyndns.org:8002/pinyin/yuan2 in this context is not the same as Ewald's character. But it's funny... the definition of yuan2 with this character reflects my definition of sublime... the spirit manifest, the spirit revealed. So...


Ewald, Brad, anyone else who translates Chinese fluently:

Is it possible that 3,000 years ago the character Ewald illustrated for Yuan2 meant all or at least many of the other definitions, and the other characters for Yuan2 were developed over time for purposes of differentiation? Or is this all just serendipitous? *grin*

Thanks.

Love,

Val

 

[ewald]

I have settled on "source" for Yuan2 for the time being. For instance:

1.0
Heaven.
A source of fulfillment,
it is beneficial to persist.


6.5
Conflict as a source of good fortune.


41.0
Reduction.
Have confidence,
it is a source of good fortune.
Without fault to allow for persistence.
It is beneficial to have a goal to move to.
How to do this?
Two bamboo bowls are suitable to be used for the sacrifice.


48.6
The well is being drawn from.
Do not cover it, it is dependable,
and a source of good fortune.


Ewald

 

[ewald]

Val - I wouldn't say I'm translating Chinese fluently, I'm mostly proficient at creating databases and webpages to help me translate ;-)

I don't have the answer to your question. The characters seem quite different to me, but then, there is a combination with the other yuan2 character, yuan2 qi3, that also means origin.

Ewald