...life can be translucent

Menu

Divination illegal in China?

andreas

visitor
Joined
Apr 3, 1972
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I'm reading "The Tao of the West", a very interesting volume by J. J. Clarke on how Daoist thought has been interpreted in the West over the years. In passing he says (p62):

"The perception of the Yijing as full of dangerous superstitions still prevails in China, though, where its use (though not its academic study) is banned by law."

I was astounded! Is this really the case? Does anyone here have first hand information on this?

Thanks

Andreas
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Well, I don't have first hand information on that but I wouldn't be surprised. It is one of the same arguments they used to suppress Falun Gong in China in the recent years. Actually, the Chinese government does not tolerate anything that deviates from the established religions, i.e. Taoism, Confucionism, Budhism, etc., and even those they barely tolerate. Basically, they do not tolerate anything that empowers the individual in a spiritual way. Capitalism is one thing, spirituality is another. The latter is considered much more dangerous that the former.

Luis
 
C

candid

Guest
Interesting. While western governments don't prohibit the use of I Ching outright, the population at large would agree with the idea of Yi being a dangerous (and foolish) superstition. It is also prohibited in most Christian organizations, where it is seen as a tool of the devil.
 

jte

visitor
Joined
May 31, 1972
Messages
724
Reaction score
12
On the Christian Org's statement, it's hard to say, though, if that's just "many" or really most. I mean, no one's done a survey, right? I know that some Christian groups are quite insular, but not all of them are. So there might be less concern and/or more tolerance than one supposes, no?

- Jeff
 
C

candid

Guest
Maybe, though that's not what I've witnessed in the Catholic, Lutheran, Four Square, Baptist denominations I've been a part of. (Don?t asked how my original dog-eared Wilhelm wound up in a church book burning.) There are the more liberal branches of most denominations, that's true, but at best it's a "don't ask / don't tell" philosophy. Of course there are exceptions, such as the more philosophical branches of the Christian church. And for a light-hearted look, and by way of making the point, here is how many Unitarians it takes to screw in a light bulb:

We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, you are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your light bulb for the next Sunday service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, 3-way, long-life and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.

Oh, and Unitarians are also of the devil, according to many Christian church teachings.

It's a weird world we live in.
 
C

candid

Guest
My memory must be failing. The Wilhelm was not burned at that time, it was my Jung collection that went into the fiery pit. He was of the devil too, of course.
 
C

candid

Guest
The manner in which it was decided which books were "strongly advised" to be burned, was not much less intrusive than the communist method. The difference was that the deciding elders received permission of adherents to undergo a search of all reading material, wall art and recorded music, and to have purged from our homes anything which "was not of God". While they couldn't threaten us with our lives, they threatened us with something much worse: eternal damnation.

So in my eyes, there?s not that much difference between the modern east and west, where it comes to seeing Yi as dangerous and foolish dabbling; government freedom protection notwithstanding.
 

jte

visitor
Joined
May 31, 1972
Messages
724
Reaction score
12
Sounds bad. Glad you are past it!

- Jeff
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
I think Alfred Huang in the introduction to his Complete I Ching says he was imprisoned either for his I Ching work, or for his interest in the West, or both. I'll have a look...
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
... ah yes:

"After the Communists took over China in 1949, the I Ching was denounced as a book of feudalism and superstition. It was banished from the market, and reading it was not allowed."

He was part of an underground group that studied the I Ching with an elderly master, and was given manual labour in 57, and imprisoned in 66. Though he does also say he'd 'graduated from a missionary school and had been the principal of a Christian high school' - so they had him down as an American spy.

Huang doesn't say anything about the present situation in China, though.
 

pedro

visitor
Joined
Jul 10, 1971
Messages
311
Reaction score
0
Not only in China:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deuteronomy 18:10<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Geeze, I thought Candid was describing some barbaric customs from a place where the "Children of the Corn" were raised when I saw this bit of news on CNN:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Fire department bars book-burning

Monday, July 12, 2004 Posted: 9:30 AM EDT (1330 GMT)

CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (AP) -- A church's plan for an old-fashioned book-burning has been thwarted by city and county fire codes.

Preachers and congregations throughout American history have built bonfires and tossed in books and other materials they believed offended God.

The Rev. Scott Breedlove, pastor of The Jesus Church, wanted to rekindle that tradition in a July 28 ceremony where books, CDs, videos and clothing would have been thrown into the flames.

Not so fast, city officials said.

"We don't want a situation where people are burning rubbish as a recreational fire," said Brad Brenneman, the fire department's district chief.

Linn County won't go for a fire outside city limits, either.

Officials said the county's air quality division prohibits the transporting of materials from the city to the county for burning.

Breedlove said a city fire inspector suggested shredding the offending material, but Breedlove said that wouldn't seem biblical.

"I joked with the guy that St. Paul never had to worry about fire codes," Breedlove said.

The new plan calls for members of the church to throw materials into garbage cans and then light candles to symbolically "burn" the material.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazing and sad that this practice is still going on...

Luis
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
Don't you think that the fanatics and the bureaucrats just deserve each other beautifully?
 
C

candid

Guest
These activities are not uncommon among Pentecostal churches, especially the more extreme sects. My eldest son has been a member of just such an extremist group, calling themselves Potter?s House. He and a ?church woman? were married in secret in the Pastor?s living room, and family members were neither invited nor informed. He hasn?t spoken to me in over 6 year, beginning a year after he joined the church, and a year before I left the faith. I confronted the Pastor face to face, but he brushed me off as lost.

Extremism in religion or any ideology is of all things most dangerous. That seems particularly obvious during these times. But this is not limited to the extremist Muslim faith. Anytime a group loses touch with the rest of humanity, deeming them unworthy of life, whether temporal or eternal, there - is a time bomb just waiting to be set off.
 

megabbobby

visitor
Joined
Jul 6, 1972
Messages
104
Reaction score
0
pentecostals are nuts or whatever..

but i read that the heads of the mormons, southern baptists, and many of the mainstream protestant churches in america are masons or manipulated by them.

the pentecostals are the anarchy-thorn in their side--in controlling the religious americans.

also the '700 club' on tv is really a republican front.
 

freemanc

visitor
Joined
May 9, 1970
Messages
92
Reaction score
0
What a bunch of heathens! ;)

I'm sort of interested in that biblical passages damning divination.

I'm not a fluent biblical scholar, but there appears to be a lot of prophecy -- prophents who *personally* channel of the diety (how is that not divination?)-- and a lot of things that I would also call "divination," such as Daniel interpreting the king's dream.

So channelling the holy spirit and interpreting dreams are either "non-divination" or are acceptable because they're done in-house, so to speak, and blessed by the establishment.

(The Zhou, by the way, didn't care much for freelance diviners either. You talk to the state deities and ancestors, you do it through the state.)

Could someone who is a better bible student briefly explain your denomination's take on these matters, without waxing polemical on the matter?

Also, does anyone know with authority if I Ching students still get locked up in China?
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
I think the idea that what's done in-house is valid is still very much alive. I remember arguing with Christian Union people at school. (They were very sweet, and genuinely worried about me.) Dream interpretation, they said, was the work of the devil. What about Joseph? I asked. Well, his dreams were sent by God. Also this was in the Bible, hence different.
 
C

candid

Guest
Yes, Joseph and Daniel rocked as diviners.

Freemanc, there are many Bible passages condeming divination. Most were from the old testament. But as Hilary points out, this contradicts other passages where divination is used. Casting lots, for example, was common practice even among the disciples of Jesus.

For:

Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Jos 18:6 Ye shall therefore describe the land [into] seven parts, and bring [the description] hither to me, that I may cast lots for you here before the LORD our God.
Jos 18:8 And the men arose, and went away: and Joshua charged them that went to describe the land, saying, Go and walk through the land, and describe it, and come again to me, that I may here cast lots for you before the LORD in Shiloh.
Jos 18:10 And Joshua cast lots for them in Shiloh before the LORD: and there Joshua divided the land unto the children of Israel according to their divisions.
1Ch 24:31 These likewise cast lots over against their brethren the sons of Aaron in the presence of David the king, and Zadok, and Ahimelech, and the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites, even the principal fathers over against their younger brethren.
1Ch 25:8 And they cast lots, ward against [ward], as well the small as the great, the teacher as the scholar.
1Ch 26:13 And they cast lots, as well the small as the great, according to the house of their fathers, for every gate.
1Ch 26:14 And the lot eastward fell to Shelemiah. Then for Zechariah his son, a wise counsellor, they cast lots; and his lot came out northward.
Neh 11:1 And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts [to dwell] in [other] cities.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Oba 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou [wast] as one of them.
Jon 1:7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil [is] upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Nah 3:10 Yet [was] she carried away, she went into captivity: her young children also were dashed in pieces at the top of all the streets: and they cast lots for her honourable men, and all her great men were bound in chains.
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
Num 22:7 And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed with the rewards of divination in their hand; and they came unto Balaam, and spake unto him the words of Balak.
Num 23:23 Surely [there is] no enchantment against Jacob, neither [is there] any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!
Eze 21:22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint [battering] rams against the gates, to cast a mount, [and] to build a fort.

Against:

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
2Ki 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Eze 12:24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Eze 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made [others] to hope that they would confirm the word.
Eze 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith [it]; albeit I have not spoken?
Eze 21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.

This one?s a gem:

Acts 16:14-18
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Take your pick, for or against. Paul played perhaps the largest role in condemning the practice from the Christian church, however he also introduced the "gifts of the spirit", which included prophesying one for another.

Go figure.
 

yly2pg1

visitor
Joined
Dec 29, 1972
Messages
830
Reaction score
11
Divination in China?
It is a rising business now.
As long as it do not post any threat to its government and social stability.

Click here, for one of its service in China.

BTW Feng Shui is being discussed and debated in the People Assembly Hall recently.
 

jonaswizard

visitor
Joined
Apr 27, 1970
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Hi,

I have lived and worked in China for almost two years now. I even got married here last year a lovely Chinese lady!

Let me assure you all, divination is most definately NOT illeagal in China! Everyday I walk past fortune teller's stalls on my way to the school where I teach. There are palm readers, card readers, and coin diviners everywhere. The practise openly and without impediment.

My wife has lived in Anhui all her life. She is a Buddhist and has her own copy of Yijing in Chinese. Yijing is widely available in all bookstores, as are tarot cards, even in a small provincial town like this.

Before I came out here, I might have entertained the same misconceptions about Chinese "surpression" of their own culture, but frankly, it is utter twaddle. The Chinese are among the most benign and tolerant people it has ever been my privillage to work with.

So NO, you are'nt going to get thrown in prison for using and practising the Yijing! This is just a typically uninformed western myth, designed to perpetuate the notion of China as a closed and intolerant!
 

bradford_h

(deceased)
Joined
Nov 16, 1971
Messages
1,115
Reaction score
63
Mr Wizard-
Thank you for clarifying this. I was wondering too.
Hope scholarly pursuits are faring as well as the marketplace stalls.
Congratulations on your wedding.
brad
 

yly2pg1

visitor
Joined
Dec 29, 1972
Messages
830
Reaction score
11
Yi is a way of life in Chinese, though lot of Chinese do not realize that. When a Chinese scholar talks about Yi, it always means more than the Book of Change.

In the late 70s, the effort to merge both the western medicine with the Chinese medicine has started to gain momentum, and still a subject of big discussion among the medical doctors in China until today ... Yi_medicine
 

andreas

visitor
Joined
Apr 3, 1972
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I am glad to have this (mis)information refuted - I wonder where Clarke got the idea from?
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top