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No plain not followed by a slope.
No going not followed by a return.
He who remains persevering in danger
Is without blame.
Do not complain about this truth;
Enjoy the good fortune you still possess.

Everything on earth is subject to change. Prosperity is followed by decline: this is the eternal law on earth. Evil can indeed be held in check but not permanently abolished. It always returns. This conviction might induce melancholy, but it should not; it ought only to keep us from falling into illusion when good fortune comes to us. If we continue mindful of the danger, we remain persevering and make no mistakes. As long as a man’s inner nature remains stronger and richer than anything offered by external fortune, as long as he remains inwardly superior to fate, fortune will not desert him.

So is this the Yijing's way of saying evil has always been and always will be?

It also says not to complain about this truth... is it because doing so brings evil?

Is this also dealing with the idea of eternity and totality? Is there no heavenly paradise free of evil? It seems to me that this line says both yes and no at the same time. Although in the image and commentary there is clear allusion to earthly realms.

It seems the evil penetrates right after yang and yin copulate from the universal archetypes pure yin has the characteristic of total receptivity therefore allowing in evil as well as good. Not only that the origin of evil in 2.6. Thereafter you have those two battling through the rest of the 64 changes.

This is like a hexagram 9 within hexagram 11. Just that little slight bit of imperfection, but enough to bog it down.
 

Trojina

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I don't find 11.3 refers to evil but to the cycles of fortune that go along with inhabiting a human body. For example I notice 11.3 sometimes come up around illness and death seemingly as a kind of comfort. But illness and death aren't evil exactly are they...but they always have been part of our experience as human beings and no doubt always will be. We have to come to terms with that. At quite a young age we understand all living creatures must die and all will suffer some kind loss and pain in their lifetimes....thats how it is. So line 3 seems to offer counsel on how to meet these things, these inevitable downturns (and upturns too of course) in our lives

To me the line isn't about evil but about acceptance of how it is to be incarnate on this earth.

Infact I think getting this line shows there is no evil as such in the situation asked about, its part of the natural flow (hex 11) of life, and rather than dwell on the movement of the ups and down of life one should enjoy what one has right now.
 

pocossin

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So is this the Yijing's way of saying evil has always been and always will be?

Human nature is a mixture of good and evil -- Yang Xiong
The course of true love never did run smooth -- Shakespeare
Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure -- A.E. Housman
 

Trojina

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I'm not sure if the word 'evil' is in the original text of the Yi for 11.3 Scholars will know...but I never saw the word evil there.

The word 'evil' is in Wilhelms commentary whch is not the same thing as the I Ching.

The concept of evil is a different thing than the ups and downs of life, which I always took 11.3 to be about.

I don't know what the chinese word for evil is or where it appears in the Yi...except I think its said there are evil men in 8.3 and in 38.1 and probably lots of other places too but is it in 11.3 ?

If it isn't then why run with the idea of evil for 11.3 when its only in Wilhelms commentary ?
 

pocossin

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Hilary:
There is no level ground without a slope.
No going out without a return.
Constancy in hardship is no mistake.
Do not sorrow about its truth.
In eating and drinking there is blessings.

Bradford:
There is no level without a slope,
No going without a return
It is difficult to persist with no errors
Do not worry: these are certainties
In nourishment find happiness


When is a danger,hardship, or difficulty evil? When it is a consequence of human will, one's own or someone else's. If we inflict trouble, illness, or premature death on ourselves from selfish motives, I'd say the conduct was evil. The chickens come home to roost.
 

Trojina

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Hilary:
There is no level ground without a slope.
No going out without a return.
Constancy in hardship is no mistake.
Do not sorrow about its truth.
In eating and drinking there is blessings.

Bradford:
There is no level without a slope,
No going without a return
It is difficult to persist with no errors
Do not worry: these are certainties
In nourishment find happiness


When is a danger,hardship, or difficulty evil? When it is a consequence of human will, one's own or someone else's. If we inflict trouble, illness, or premature death on ourselves from selfish motives, I'd say the conduct was evil. The chickens come home to roost.

There is nothing about evil in either of those translations...as far as I can see. If it were a significant concept to understanding the line I feel, the word 'evil', which appears elsewhere in Yi, would be there in the text ....wouldn' t it ?

level ground then a slope is the natural contours of the earth...it isn't evil. It is more of a struggle to walk uphill on a rainy day than on level ground on a fine day. No evil there. I take the advice as don't be dwelling on the uphill rise and bad weather to come...just enjoy the moment
 
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rosada

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what's this about 2.6 describing the origin of evil? Hadn't heard that one before..
I am curious if any one has an insight as to why we are told the dragons' blood in black and yellow. Is that significant? Would the black blood represent an unawakened state and the yellow blood and awakened consciousness? Does it have something to do with the 2.5 comment about a "yellow" undergarment?

I too think Wilhelm's reference to evil is unsupported by the text of 11.3, particularly because the Image refers the superior man dividing and completing the course of Heaven. I see this as a reference to Astrology with the message being that by understanding the cycles of the planets and the seasons one will not blame events on good luck or bad luck or "evil" but instead will recognize these "slopes" are a part of the natural cycle and therefore not to be feared. 11.3 gives specific advice for surviving life's slopes. The way to survive is to be persevering. 11.3 advises that rather than giving up and thinking winter is caused by some evil witch casting a spell, one should persevere and maintain their positive attitude and that by so doing they will continue to have good fortune, even during the down cycles.

I guess it comes down to is what do we mean by "evil"? Whether one of Mother nature's nasty storms or a man made consciously created misfortune, either way I think 11.3 reassures us that with a persevering positive attitude we will survive..
-rosada
 
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pocossin

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The ancient Chinese view was that the universe was ethical. Human misconduct disrupted the regular order of nature and caused calamities. The slippery slope within led to the slippery slope without.
 

pocossin

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A substantial thread on the dueling dragons:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=339
2.6 dueling dragons

My take is that text originates in visual features of the hexagram. Sakis Totlis found the dragons. The two columns of lines represent the belly plates of two rampant dragons. They are in a fighting posture.

Code:
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄

Six at the top means:
Dragons fight in the meadow.
Their blood is black and yellow.

The trigram of the sixth line is Li , associated with weapons, boundaries, and brightness. The single covering trigram is Kun , associated with land/earth and darkness. So the trigram expression for this line is ☲ ☷.

☲ ☷ = limit + land = outland. Bradford has 'wild', 'wasteland', 'open country'.

☲ ☷ = yellow (bright) + dark.
 

rodaki

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thank you all for the great thread . . . I'm thinking how 'evil' is just a way to speak about a non-productive attitude which can rear its head even in the midst of 11 . . but then again, according to the IChing, there can be no pure evil as there is no absolute good

Apart from that, I was always fascinated by how even a word can hold within and create really strong reactions. I think 'evil' is a word like that, cause in a few letters it can bring to life our most well-hidden fears and make us fight a fight of un-reason . .

I wonder if dissolving it can be as simple as turning it around . . then it would become 'live' and it would bring about a whole different set of thoughts . . Maybe our lives are like that, a heap of elements waiting for us to put them together in some way and create the corresponding meaning

:rolleyes:
 

Trojina

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thank you all for the great thread . . . I'm thinking how 'evil' is just a way to speak about a non-productive attitude which can rear its head even in the midst of 11 . . but then again, according to the IChing, there can be no pure evil as there is no absolute good

Apart from that, I was always fascinated by how even a word can hold within and create really strong reactions. I think 'evil' is a word like that, cause in a few letters it can bring to life our most well-hidden fears and make us fight a fight of un-reason . .

I wonder if dissolving it can be as simple as turning it around . . then it would become 'live' and it would bring about a whole different set of thoughts . . Maybe our lives are like that, a heap of elements waiting for us to put them together in some way and create the corresponding meaning

:rolleyes:


I think evil is a bit more than a 'non productive attitude'.....shalll we bring in Hitler and murder of x amount of jews (we usually bring in Hitler at this stage ;))

Besides as far as I am concerned 11.3 says nothing about a 'non productive attitude' its a pretty organic kind of line


But as Rosada says it depends on how you define evil. I wouldn't class natural disasters as evil though they cause a huge amount of suffering.

However if the word 'evil' is not in the translation of 11..3 then its putting a fairly strong meaning into a line that just isn't there.


Which is your prerogative of course ;)
 

rodaki

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ah yes, I knew there was a comment on Hitler coming my way! :)p)

but can we really say that Hitler was evil and be done with it? Can you say that? was Hitler the sole cause of the holocaust? How about all of his associates? and how about all the simple, misinformed or uneducated people who played their part in allowing this regime to take route? Weren't they part of what happened? Were they all evil? Or were they just victims of circumstance?


what I'm saying is that we cannot pin a single thing as evil and from then on point the finger saying there, that's evil, because if we look at it a bit closer we'll see that 'evil' as such, in the imperative, is almost inexistent. It's an accumulation of attributes that create what we can call evil effects such as most of the wars that have ever happened . . hmm, I think all such occasions share the 'organic' part with any other disaster (natural or not)

ok, I dunno but I'm having an extreme difficulty calling someone or some thing plain evil -which doesn't stop me from fully recognizing the suffering they might have caused otherwise.
I think evil is more of a category, an aspect of our experience, not a thing that stands on its own, separate from the rest of existence . . in that way it could be thought of as part of the yin-yang image painted in 11.3 . .


but yeah, I am seeing this mainly from my own point of view and then, as you say, not everyone has to agree with it ;)
 

anemos

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So is this the Yijing's way of saying evil has always been and always will be?

It also says not to complain about this truth... is it because doing so brings evil?

.

to your first question I would say Yes.
pain , agony, problems are also parts of this life. Its the nature of life either you are a fish in the sea or a intelligent Homo sapiens. To me it simply says you have to affirm the daily horror of life, to reconcile with that truth. if you want to live you have live that way. Re-cognize it, re-concile .

it fits with the overall theme of hex 11, imo.

to your second question I'ld say yes and no.
from 11.3 also : As long as a man's inner nature remains stronger and richer than anything offered by external fortune, as long as he remains inwardly superior to fate, fortune will not desert him.

the issue of this line 11.3 , is whether or not you participate in the game and how you do that. Complaining or not accepting put you out of the game and what the quote passage could say is not what happens out there rules your life but how you handle it.
 

peter2610

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I wonder if dissolving it can be as simple as turning it around . . then it would become 'live' and it would bring about a whole different set of thoughts . . Maybe our lives are like that, a heap of elements waiting for us to put them together in some way and create the corresponding meaning

Without 'evil', 'good' would be meaningless, there would be no good. Essence is beyond good and evil; the ultimate reality beyond relative values. God is not pure goodness, it is a state of being-in-itself, pure essence, the convergence of all meaning.
 

rodaki

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thanks for the comment Peter, altho I'm not sure if we're on the same wavelength . .

If I think about 'ultimate reality' I understand and find it a useful idea but not something I have known as such, just like I don't know 'evil' as such . . in my everyday life I still experience things mostly in the relative value realm, as a balance of both ends rather than a single point of view
. . but that's just me :rolleyes:
 

anemos

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Without 'evil', 'good' would be meaningless, there would be no good. .

yes ! looking at the trigram , what would be heaven without earth? just a potential power.

we know beauty because there is ugly
we know good because there is evil
being and not being
having and not having
create each other

difficult and easy
long and sort
high and low
define each other,
just as before and after follow each other

.............
TTC.
 

Trojina

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ah yes, I knew there was a comment on Hitler coming my way! :)p)

but can we really say that Hitler was evil and be done with it? Can you say that? was Hitler the sole cause of the holocaust? How about all of his associates? and how about all the simple, misinformed or uneducated people who played their part in allowing this regime to take route? Weren't they part of what happened? Were they all evil? Or were they just victims of circumstance?


what I'm saying is that we cannot pin a single thing as evil and from then on point the finger saying there, that's evil, because if we look at it a bit closer we'll see that 'evil' as such, in the imperative, is almost inexistent. It's an accumulation of attributes that create what we can call evil effects such as most of the wars that have ever happened . . hmm, I think all such occasions share the 'organic' part with any other disaster (natural or not)

ok, I dunno but I'm having an extreme difficulty calling someone or some thing plain evil -which doesn't stop me from fully recognizing the suffering they might have caused otherwise.
I think evil is more of a category, an aspect of our experience, not a thing that stands on its own, separate from the rest of existence . . in that way it could be thought of as part of the yin-yang image painted in 11.3 . .


but yeah, I am seeing this mainly from my own point of view and then, as you say, not everyone has to agree with it ;)

Mmm yes but thats getting onto a discussion about evil.....whereas my point was simply I don't think evil as such is a feature in 11.3. I was asking if the word 'evil' is in the Chinese of the text because it doesn't seem to be...or even carry any particular connotation of it. Ups and downs of life, good times, bad times, easy times, hard times, aren't necessarily the result of evil.,just how it is. The 'evil' connection with 11.3 comes only from Wilhelm....as far as i can see though actually he could be using the word in a very wide sense...as he might say all sufferings are evils i guess. The word evil can be used in that way... like maybe the 'evils' of winter being flu epidemics doesn't mean it was an evil inflicted by another...

Anyway to me 11.3 reminds me very much of a motherly /grandmotherly comfort saying "never mind it will all come out in the wash"....
 
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rodaki

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Anyway to me 11.3 reminds me very much of a motherly /grandmotherly comfort saying "never mind it will all come out in the wash"....


:), always good to remember that one ..
:bows:
 

charly

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... the issue of this line 11.3 , is whether or not you participate in the game and how you do that. Complaining or not accepting put you out of the game and what the quote passage could say is not what happens out there rules your life but how you handle it.
Hi, Maria:

I always wonder why W/B says nothing about FOOD when rendering 11.3. Maybe a look to the chinese text can apport some insight:

wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
ping2: flat / level / equal / calm / peaceful / smooth /
bu4: un... / not / no /
po1: slope / wavy terrain/ with up and downs / rugged / uneaven // dam // enbankment / reservoir /

wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
wang3: to go / towards /
bu4: un... / not / no /
fu4: return / to come back / again / recover / reply to a letter / to repeat /

jian1: difficult / hard / hardship /
zhen1: omen / divination // perseverance / chaste /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake / wrong /

wu4: do not /
xu4: give suppot / sympathy / have pity // worry /
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it (refers to sth preceding it) /
fu2: captive/ prisoner / booty // sincere / reliabile // trust / truth /

yu2: at / to
shi2: to feed / to eat / food / meals //[= 蝕] eclipse / to erode / to eat up slowly (1)
you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist // to be /
fu2: happiness / blessing / good fortune / (2)


Literal rendering:

WITHOUT FLAT NO SLOPE.
Without plain no wavy terrain.
Without smooth no uneaven.


WITHOUT GOING NO RETURNING.
Sometimes understood as no going without return: all returns.


HARD OMEN. NO WRONG.
It promise to be difficult, but no wrong.

DO NOT WORRY THAT TRUTH. (3)
Nothing about "complain"

AT FOOD BE BLESSED.
Nothing about transitory good luck


What did W/B said?

Do not complain about this truth;
Enjoy the good fortune you still possess.
Wilhelm/ Baynes

I like it very much but ...
Maybe a little of humour, but why nothing about FOOD?
Nothing about ECLIPSES?

I BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE WELL KNOWN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN ENJOYING FOOD AND LOVE-MAKING.

[Life is Short...]
[9:7] Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart ...
[9:9] Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity...
Ecclesiastes
King James Version

Make your path, EAT your bread ...
= ENJOY life with the woman you LOVE all the days of your f_cking life ...

Many connections between Changes and the Bible.


This line belongs to the hexagram that begins:

H.11:

tai4
GREATNESS
At Peace [with Life]

LITTLE GOES. GREAT COMES.
Now comes the great!
or ...
When the Little goes the Big comes.
The Little is our unconscious partner,
The Big our conscious self.


FORTUNATE. FEAST.
Lucky celebration.



Best regards,


Charly

__________________________
(1) for both SUN and MOON eclipses.
(2) 有福 you3 fu2: to be blessed
(3) This is the common understanding, but there are more than one problem another version might be BE MERCILESS WITH CAPTIVES! Or even BE MERCILESS WITH THAT CAPTIVE (with whom?).
Some alternative readings:
Explote your captive up to the maximum.
Being merciless with one's own captive.
but that's another story.

Ch.
 
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charly

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...
The course of true love never did run smooth -- Shakespeare
...
Hi, Tom:

A pretty quote, ideed.

True LOVE runs STORMY.
But not all the time, without a peaceful time there is no climax.
Nothing but common sense.

Maybe the true teaching of the olds was:


无平
wu2 ping2
NO TRANQUIIL

不陂
bu4 po1
NO WAVY-TERRAIN
Without being tranquil / self confident,
will not enjoy women. (1)

Don't you believe?

Yours,


Charly


_____________________
(1) Wavy-terrain alludes to the topography of female body.
Ch.
 

charly

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11.3 is a problematic line for many people.

In the Illustrated I Ching, edited by Foreign Languages, Beijing says:

No matter how smooth it is, there are always slopes. And there is no going without coming back. It is not wrong to predict the prospects in hardship. Don't worry about coming back after going out, you will be lucky in having nice food to eat.

Maybe more understandable, but not a true translation.

Why was replaced the CAPTIVE or the TRUTH by COMING BACK AFTER GOING OUT?

Charly
 
D

diamanda

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wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
ping2: flat / level / equal / calm / peaceful / smooth /
bu4: un... / not / no /
po1: slope / wavy terrain/ with up and downs / rugged / uneaven // dam // enbankment / reservoir /

wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
wang3: to go / towards /
bu4: un... / not / no /
fu4: return / to come back / again / recover / reply to a letter / to repeat /

jian1: difficult / hard / hardship /
zhen1: omen / divination // perseverance / chaste /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake / wrong /

wu4: do not /
xu4: give suppot / sympathy / have pity // worry /
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it (refers to sth preceding it) /
fu2: captive/ prisoner / booty // sincere / reliabile // trust / truth /

yu2: at / to
shi2: to feed / to eat / food / meals //[= 蝕] eclipse / to erode / to eat up slowly (1)
you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist // to be /
fu2: happiness / blessing / good fortune / (2)

Hi Charly,

Here's a bit of poetic licence from me, of course just one of very many
possible explanations.

The situation is neither calm, nor rocky,
and there's neither leaving, nor returning.
Difficult omen to explain... but not wrong.
Do not consider what you've got.
Just eat up what you've got.

Sounds to me like this could be describing a very ambiguous situation.
One which is far from clear cut. A situation a bit in limbo.

It's not great and swimmingly good, but it's not that bad either. No-one
is leaving, or nothing is lost, but nothing more is gained either. A bit of
an unsatisfactory situation, and yet there is some food/truth/captive
at hand, well, there is something at least at hand. So don't think about
this omen too much, don't think about the truth too much, and don't
think about the situation too much, as it's all far too ambiguous and
complex to be explained in a few black and white words. Just "eat"
what you can, from what you've got, and try to be as well prepared for
the future as possible, because, far from being totally rosy, this leads
to 19, and as we all know 19 points to work to be done, preparation,
approach, prevention, etc etc. Well, for now there is food, as you said,
and that can only be good fortune! Bon appetit everyone :)
 

Trojina

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Hi Charly,

Here's a bit of poetic licence from me, of course just one of very many
possible explanations.

The situation is neither calm, nor rocky,
and there's neither leaving, nor returning.
Difficult omen to explain... but not wrong.
Do not consider what you've got.
Just eat up what you've got.

Sounds to me like this could be describing a very ambiguous situation.
One which is far from clear cut. A situation a bit in limbo.

It's not great and swimmingly good, but it's not that bad either. No-one
is leaving, or nothing is lost, but nothing more is gained either. A bit of
an unsatisfactory situation, and yet there is some food/truth/captive
at hand, well, there is something at least at hand. So don't think about
this omen too much, don't think about the truth too much, and don't
think about the situation too much, as it's all far too ambiguous and
complex to be explained in a few black and white words. Just "eat"
what you can, from what you've got,
and try to be as well prepared for
the future as possible, because, far from being totally rosy, this leads
to 19, and as we all know 19 points to work to be done, preparation,
approach, prevention, etc etc. Well, for now there is food, as you said,
and that can only be good fortune! Bon appetit everyone :)


I think thats about it.....Yis way of saying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnfKmNRfLYU ?
 
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charly

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... Just "eat" what you can, from what you've got, and try to be as well prepared for the future as possible, because, far from being totally rosy, this leads to 19, and as we all know 19 points to work to be done, preparation, approach, prevention, etc etc. Well, for now there is food, as you said, and that can only be good fortune! Bon appetit everyone :)
Hi, Diamanda:

I like it very much.
And you know that my obessions are shared with many respectable authors:

... and "to eat" has been a pun for sexual activity in Chinese since the Chou dynasty.

Joseph Needham
Science in traditional China
Can try with Google Books.

告子曰:食色,性也。
Mencius 6A:4

The philosopher Gao said, 'To enjoy food and delight in colours is nature.
Legge's translation.

告子 Gào Zǐ​: MASTER GAO
​yuē: to say / SAID
食色 shí​sè​: food and sex / appetite and lust / FOOD [AND] SEX
xìng​: nature / character / sexuality / sex / gender / [THAT'S HUMAN] NATURE
。yě​: also / too / in Classical Chinese final particle implying affirmation / [STOP]

standing alone means COLOUR or also SEX / CARNAL DELIGHT, now you can understand what did Lege, only an euphemism that didn't hide the true meaning.
DELIGHT IN COLOURS sounds SUPERLATIVE.

All the best,



Charly
 
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U

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So to me it seems that while there is not a explicit mention of evil in the image of the line change. Wilhelms translation of the line is correct... Did he write all these interpretations from nothing? I would be surpreised if there is no commentary on the line untill wilhelm came along...If you look at the idea of the yuga cycles in the hindu mythology evil doesnt fully come forth for a long time. But there are the seeds of it growing which are described as small bummers - untill you have Hitler and stalin etc... This is what i think is going on here - the inevidable beginnings of decline.

I do agree though this return of evil is probably more about being in a material body here on earth rather than a cosmic constant in all dimensions and realities.
 

charly

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NO PLAIN WITHOUT SLOPE!

2r7sghd.jpg


From: Nirvana di Roberto Totaro
http://blogcomicstrip.blogspot.com/search/label/Nirvana

Ch.
 

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11:3 I am in it now

I use a system that indicates a 2 month period for a single line. I am now in 11:3. I have enjoyed the discussion.

For me this time indicates a downturn in all the signs of the times. Yet it is necessary to remain faithful and Good fortune does not abandon one. So I am seeing lots of disappointments in my overall situation. Yet, as I maintain my courage and faith in the face of such things, still there is good fortune that comes. This requires endurance, and true faith.

I view each of the lines of 11 as being about peace. In the case of line three, peace is found by accepting that what goes up must come down, and that if we get hung up in the moment, allowing the ephemeral circumstances of the present to affect our being, we cannot find inner peace.
 

lecubiste

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Meher Baba

I use a system that indicates a 2 month period for a single line. I am now in 11:3. I have enjoyed the discussion.

For me this time indicates a downturn in all the signs of the times. Yet it is necessary to remain faithful and Good fortune does not abandon one. So I am seeing lots of disappointments in my overall situation. Yet, as I maintain my courage and faith in the face of such things, still there is good fortune that comes. This requires endurance, and true faith.

I view each of the lines of 11 as being about peace. In the case of line three, peace is found by accepting that what goes up must come down, and that if we get hung up in the moment, allowing the ephemeral circumstances of the present to affect our being, we cannot find inner peace.

...or, as Meher Baba said, " Don't worry. Be happy."
 

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