Caught in interpretative crossfire! Help!

arabella · Mar 6, 2011

All week long I've been trying out this new idea of Hex 44 that was introduced in Margaret Pearson's webinar and sprinkling that liberally on la gente where 44 arises in shared readings, etc. I love her ideas and they solved a big problem for me of hating to cast Hex 44 and feeling that it was a put down of any woman who knew her own mind and strength by somebody [sometimes a man or authority figure but who knows who else] who just couldn't handle it.

Meanwhile, this woman was regarded only as a potential bearer of an "heir" in the old version, which could mean a lot of things but, to me anyway, meant that she was less than a full human being and not allowed to be either intelligent OR seductive. Oh please.

So via Margaret Pearson we have this new idea of Hex 44 which speaks to me much more of the power women must have had in ancient China. They surely weren't all just sexual vessels or vassals and I can imagine had some very powerful influence that rulers may well have relied upon.

Having given all that background I just cast Hex 44 in enquiring about an atittude someone apparently holds toward me, someone who voices a huge appreciation of assistance with various projects and ideas but, almost on the sly, is kind of mean. I don't mean cruel, but everyone once in a while comes out with some put down that is more than a friendly dig. So I'm wondering -- is this the guy's sense of humour?

It could be in any variety of ways that happens, but it's undeniably there and sometimes veiled as a joke. But it doesn't feel funny. So I asked: what is the reason for his unkind attitude toward me? The Yi Ching says it is Hexagram 44 Unchanging. SO, no chance for a reprieve on this? And in view of the varied interpretation of Hex 44 that have been discussed on here lately -- any suggestions on the meaning and direction to take from the casting?

Trojina · Mar 6, 2011

arabella said:
All week long I've been trying out this new idea of Hex 44 that was introduced in Margaret Pearson's webinar and sprinkling that liberally on la gente where 44 arises in shared readings, etc. I love her ideas and they solved a big problem for me of hating to cast Hex 44 and feeling that it was a put down of any woman who knew her own mind and strength by somebody [sometimes a man or authority figure but who knows who else] who just couldn't handle it.

Meanwhile, this woman was regarded only as a potential bearer of an "heir" in the old version, which could mean a lot of things but, to me anyway, meant that she was less than a full human being and not allowed to be either intelligent OR seductive. Oh please.

This is where the misunderstanding comes in. The woman is only symbolic....of something that may tempt, impose itself with great power like sexual desire does to a man. It is not meant as comment on the position of female in scociety though obviously it was written at a time of pretty full on patriarchy. Now instead of seeing it symbollically people see it literally and make out this is all about women. It isn't and you miss the point if you think it is. I think Bradford says it can be anything that has the potential to derail you from your path.

I can concede sometimes this derailment/ connection may ignite/inspire something...always recall Knots example of getting 44 re jump starting a car...but you can''t continually jump start cars as a way of using them ...

So via Margaret Pearson we have this new idea of Hex 44 which speaks to me much more of the power women must have had in ancient China. They surely weren't all just sexual vessels or vassals and I can imagine had some very powerful influence that rulers may well have relied upon.

Its not new...its old. If you look up some old threads on 44 here under 'search' and 'hexagram index' you'll see ones that go on for miles on this very topic.

Having given all that background I just cast Hex 44 in enquiring about an atittude someone apparently hold toward me, someone who voices a huge appreciation of assistance with various projects and ideas but, almost on the sly, is kind of mean. I don't mean cruel, but everyone once in a while comes out with some put down that is more than a friendly dig. So I'm wondering -- is this the guy's sense of humour?

It could be in any variety of ways that happens, but it's undeniably there and sometimes veiled as a joke. But it doesn't feel funny. So I asked: what is the reason for his unkind attitude toward me? The Yi Ching says it is Hexagram 44 Unchanging. SO, no chance for a reprieve on this? And in view of the varied interpretation os Hex 44 that have been discussed on here lately -- any suggestions on the meaning and direction to take from the casting?

Oh i thought you were discussing 44 generally but its back to a reading .....? Thats a complex way to ask a question so I pass on that

I do suggest you search the archives for the 'lively' threads on 44 to date though.

arabella · Mar 6, 2011

Thanks for your insight Trojan, I'll read through a few times more, as it's very lengthy and glean more from it.

This post on Exploring is the result of a casting I did that just set me into gales of laughter because it's hit dead-on the very Hex I've been trying to better understand -- and I cast Judgement no less. Kind of "you can run - but you can't hide." Really hit my funny bone. Anyway, I don't want to talk about the casting in the usual light, the generic 44 aura. I wanted to open that to further views on what Hex 44 means in the first place -- to ask some of the gurus for ideas that are different. Maybe then I can make more definitive sense of the casting itself.

I did feel resonance in what Margaret Pearson had to say, an appreciation more for the times when the Yi developed too. I realise the implications aren't about women in particular, although I often cast Hex 44 in an enquiry that is definitely about a woman -- including myself. As in this case. And I've seen a lot of what I could call, maybe, cut and dried, interpretations into 44 -- mere seductiveness that should be squelched. Within the webinar, Hilary acknowledges that any number of experts on here disagree with a nouveau approach to Hex 44 and what they view as railing against the inevitable and the difference in cultures. I have to think maybe the balance in the cultures is different in relation to the role of women and seduction and power said all in one breath -- but the same elements were always there.

Although you don't agree with Margaret, I appreciate the reference from Bradford. That's a new one for me and I'll think on that in relation to the casting too. That kind of information is exactly what I'm hoping for in posting the casting here rather than in the shredded section.

rosada · Mar 6, 2011

When ever the I Ching refers to woman I find it helpful to think of it as talking about the unconscious, the powerful drives one may not be aware of and which have no clear means of expression. 44 it seems to me is particularly referencing the unconscious drives that can undermine one's conscious intentions.

It sounds to me as if your friend has some resentment towards woman. He probably was raised by a very strong single mother who didn't have much money or time for little boys.
His inner brat is looking for recognition. Next time he acts out ask him if he would like to come to your office for a spanking.

rosada

arabella · Mar 6, 2011

rosada said:
When ever the I Ching refers to woman I find it helpful to think of it as talking about the unconscious, the powerful drives one may not be aware of and which have no clear means of expression. 44 it seems to me is particularly referencing the unconscious drives that can undermine one's conscious intentions.

It sounds to me as if your friend has some resentment towards woman. He probably was raised by a very strong single mother who didn't have much money or time for little boys.
His inner brat is looking for recognition. Next time he acts out ask him if he would like to come to your office for a spanking.

rosada

OMG -- That's the BEST Rosada. This has been the most hilarious casting i've ever done.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! Great idea. I think, actually, he was raised in a very wealthy family by an extremely strong woman and a father who was about fifty years old when he was born, so a certain kind of male influence. He's a really successful, rich, man himself. We've generally gotten along very well. It's just lately this is happening, when my life is at a quite low ebb and I could really do without it. And I just think -- why would he turn on me NOW? There is a certain sense of competition suddenly, but that's extremely weird timing as I'm less able than ever to rise to a competitive stance. I'm lucky to make it through the day.

Yes, I can see 44 as the unconscious acting without your realising or necessarily being in control. As, in this case, the person in question is generally very mannerly, anything intruding on that must be cutting right through social controls and politeness.

pocossin · Mar 7, 2011

44 Image

Under heaven, wind:
The image of Coming to Meet.
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.

Resolve the situation by maintaining a professional bearing in his presence. Avoid discussing personal issues when he is around.

Trojina · Mar 7, 2011

rosada said:
His inner brat is looking for recognition. Next time he acts out ask him if he would like to come to your office for a spanking.

rosada

pocossin said:
Resolve the situation by maintaining a professional bearing in his presence. Avoid discussing personal issues when he is around.

okay is it possible for Arabella to maintain a professional bearing in his prescence whilst she is spanking him ? Dressing up as a headmistress maybe ?

wonder which way Arabella will go :rofl:

arabella · Mar 7, 2011

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I promised myself I'd spend today laughing Trojan -- you must have your intuition radar on full alert! AND, if you could see this guy in his public school boy get-up, you'd be splitting your sides........Now I'm imagining him in short pants .........OMG I am DYING of this................ :rofl:

pocossin · Mar 7, 2011

trojan said:
okay is it possible for Arabella to maintain a professional bearing in his prescence whilst she is spanking him ? Dressing up as a headmistress maybe ?

wonder which way Arabella will go

Some men (T. E. Lawrence, Swinburne) enjoy a good spanking

arabella · Mar 7, 2011

pocossin said:
Some men (T. E. Lawrence, Swinburne) enjoy a good spanking

OOOOOOOoooooh. So, finally we're getting to the subtext of Hex 44 unchanging! This could be the answer!

Still on the carpet kicking both feet. HAHAHAHAHAHA....... :rofl:

themis · Mar 7, 2011

Sounds like this person sees you as a threat. Perhaps he's sensed you're not feeling 'Tip Top' these
days, hence the subtle yet derogatory comments. Often, when one person says something unpleasant to another, claiming it's only a joke, there is in fact an element of truth .. in that the person does
feel it's true/pertinent to a certain extent.

IMO the Sage responded by giving you an image of how he perceives you ... a strong lady !

Hex. 44 'Coupling
The situation described this hexagram is characterized by the magnetic attraction of primal
Yin and Yang, a meeting driven by powerful instinctual forces, beyond the control of social
or personal considerations.
Coupling
Woman's vigor (.. .. .. here's the emphasis)
No availing of grasping womanhood

Hex. 44 hardly appears within the context of male<>female attraction, for me it usually
confirms a woman's power and her stance vis à vis a particular situation. May I suggest
he could possibly be attracted to you Arabella ... it's not unusual for men to be unpleasant
and or difficult when they're attracted and realise it's inappropriate, given the circumstances ...

arabella · Mar 7, 2011

themis said:
Sounds like this person sees you as a threat. Perhaps he's sensed you're not feeling 'Tip Top' these
days, hence the subtle yet derogatory comments. Often, when one person says something unpleasant to another, claiming it's only a joke, there is in fact an element of truth .. in that the person does
feel it's true/pertinent to a certain extent.

IMO the Sage responded by giving you an image of how he perceives you ... a strong lady !

Hex. 44 'Coupling
The situation described this hexagram is characterized by the magnetic attraction of primal
Yin and Yang, a meeting driven by powerful instinctual forces, beyond the control of social
or personal considerations.
Coupling
Woman's vigor (.. .. .. here's the emphasis)
No availing of grasping womanhood

Hex. 44 hardly appears within the context of male<>female attraction, for me it usually
confirms a woman's power and her stance vis à vis a particular situation. May I suggest
he could possibly be attracted to you Arabella ... it's not unusual for men to be unpleasant
and or difficult when they're attracted and realise it's inappropriate, given the circumstances ...

Hmmm. I've thought about this attraction business which sometimes seems believable and other times -- highly improbable. But, it doesn't sound like that meaning is in Hex 44, so maybe not the indication here. I have had the feeling of him fearing me or competing at times too. Frankly, I haven't met a guy who acts like this since we were all about eight years old. I remember my Dad saying, "Oh he just likes you" or "he's just getting one up on you" when I got my pigtails pulled. But that was several eons ago. Funny to see it in a middle-aged man -- if that's what it is.

heylise · Mar 8, 2011

This is the most interesting thread about 44 I ever read! And we got quite a number.
Been laughing a lot, love it!!

bradford · Mar 9, 2011

I would stay clear of this Margaret Pearson's interpretation. It is a seductive influence that will only distract you from learning the Yijing. The woman is powerfully wrong. Do not learn from this woman.

RindaR · Mar 9, 2011

arabella · Mar 9, 2011

bradford said:
I would stay clear of this Margaret Pearson's interpretation. It is a seductive influence that will only distract you from learning the Yijing. The woman is powerfully wrong. Do not learn from this woman.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!! She will no doubt become my closest friend and confidant. :rofl:

:bows:

AAAAAAAAAAAAH was Hex 44 ever SO good before?? I love it.

Trojina · Mar 9, 2011

arabella said:
Having given all that background I just cast Hex 44 in enquiring about an atittude someone apparently holds toward me, someone who voices a huge appreciation of assistance with various projects and ideas but, almost on the sly, is kind of mean. I don't mean cruel, but everyone once in a while comes out with some put down that is more than a friendly dig. So I'm wondering -- is this the guy's sense of humour?

?

There is a big humour divide between US and UK and I think English people probably use the put down sometimes almost as a indication of endearment and intimacy. Many friends show how much they like each other by continual insults in the form of banter and so on but of course general demeanour, facial expression, smiling, body language all those clues indicates it means liking not disliking..Well thats probably true all round the world but i think perhaps british people may do it in such a deadpan way you may not know they are joking

As you lived here a long time I doubt that its just that you didn't get his humour...but nevertheless it may be a small contributing factor to bear in mind

arabella · Mar 9, 2011

trojan said:
There is a big humour divide between US and UK and I think English people probably use the put down sometimes almost as a indication of endearment and intimacy. Many friends show how much they like each other by continual insults in the form of banter and so on but of course general demeanour, facial expression, smiling, body language all those clues indicates it means liking not disliking..Well thats probably true all round the world but i think perhaps british people may do it in such a deadpan way you may not know they are joking

As you lived here a long time I doubt that its just that you didn't get his humour...but nevertheless it may be a small contributing factor to bear in mind

Yes Trojan, I know just what you are saying here. The guy in question though is Canadian, so my expectations are more in keeping with North America. His comments may be a bit "deadpan" and as said maybe it's a sense of humour -- but if so it still stings and it is a fairly recent development.

heylise · Mar 9, 2011

I grew up with "jokes" which were a way of telling someone the 'truth' without being honest about it. Usually not daring to say it honestly. You had to accept it, it was the truth after all - but it was also nasty. Now, looking back, I can recognize it, but back then I had no idea this was not right. Only when others got angry when I did it myself, I learned to see what it actually was.

My father did it fairly often. He was a very nice man but not a brave one.

mythili · Mar 9, 2011

44's a fishy woman. A mermaid. You can chase her but you cant catch her.

rodaki · Mar 9, 2011

naaah, you can catch it alright . . it's quite contagious!!

putting her in the kitchen is most troublesome though

arabella · Mar 9, 2011

heylise said:
I grew up with "jokes" which were a way of telling someone the 'truth' without being honest about it. Usually not daring to say it honestly. You had to accept it, it was the truth after all - but it was also nasty. Now, looking back, I can recognize it, but back then I had no idea this was not right. Only when others got angry when I did it myself, I learned to see what it actually was.

My father did it fairly often. He was a very nice man but not a brave one.

That's interesting, I never thought of it as not being very brave. We had a similar tradition in our family that I'd characterise as "sarcasm" which like satire is such a double-edged sword. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it backfires and can make you look really small of heart. But then I have to think, what does hex 44 explain about why he is doing it if this is just his brand of humour? Wouldn't a love for sarcastic humour turn up as some other hexagram?

Trojina · Mar 9, 2011

But I doubt you are going to get to the truth of the matter with this question....

People can make suggestions but you won't be much further forward, its all supposition..if X or Y says he did it because of this you still won't know so was this the most useful question for you ? Without an in depth conversation with him you'll never actually know why he makes these comments to you...and even then you may still not know.

Isn't all you need to know how best for you to respond or receive or not receive such behaviour ? Yis advice about how best behave will surely give you a clue to his motives anyway. If Yi advises withdrawal you'll know that his motives to you are harmful in some way and you are better out of it. If Yi encourages more communication you'll know there is more for you to know about this.

arabella · Mar 9, 2011

trojan said:
But I doubt you are going to get to the truth of the matter with this question....

People can make suggestions but you won't be much further forward, its all supposition..if X or Y says he did it because of this you still won't know so was this the most useful question for you ? Without an in depth conversation with him you'll never actually know why he makes these comments to you...and even then you may still not know.

Isn't all you need to know how best for you to respond or receive or not receive such behaviour ? Yis advice about how best behave will surely give you a clue to his motives anyway. If Yi advises withdrawal you'll know that his motives to you are harmful in some way and you are better out of it. If Yi encourages more communication you'll know there is more for you to know about this.

There are really two aspects of consideration to this casting. One is the one I came in with, that fascinated me so much because i have Hex 44 on the brain right now. And having the Yi throw up Hex 44 judgement at me was almost humorous, sort of -- SO figure it out NOW or you can't understand my answer!

My initial thinking was centred more on the excitement of getting this Hexagram, fated, than it was on him, if you can sympathise with my sort of.....delight. HAHAHAHAHA.

Because it almost seemed like the Yi was playing. Maybe that sounds ridiculous, but it gave me that feeling. As though, this real life situation was a good way for the YI to tell me -- you wanted to KNOW about 44 -- now use THIS example and you will know. OR maybe teasing -- giving me the one casting that would confuse me most. So my first thought was whether others could dispell some of the confusion and I'd outwit the YI a little bit. HAHAHAHAHA, silly girl. Which led to various hilarious exchanges here. All great fun. And you're right -- I still don't know why he has started to do this lately. BUT I also have a lot more ideas about it than I did in the beginning. And maybe thinking on those and paying some attention to what prompts this behaviour on a case by case basis will turn on the spotlights here.

Beyond that, maybe your way Trojan is the shortcut -- and would have been all along -- but I sure loved this thread. A giggle from start to finish.

Here goes: Dear Yi, what is the best way to respond to this man's treatment of me?

Hexagram 34.1.4 becoming Hexagram 46. So, getting out my Great Cart -- HERE i COME! This sounds like his worst nightmare.

heylise · Mar 10, 2011

If 44 is a description of what he is doing, it seems to me he is not just joking. Something 'fishy' is also coming along, disguised, secretive, a dark influence you have to be wary of. Maybe he doesn't even know himself, or doesn't admit it to himself. If his remarks don't feel nice, then be careful not to let them in. Does not necessarily mean that you should do anything back, just be careful of your own heart. Everything you let in without knowing exactly what it is and without properly protecting yourself, can hurt you.

I love that answer, 34! Not reacting blindly, strong in your own power. Sometimes one can learn most from bad/difficult/doubtful things, more than from nice things. Climbing up the stairs of one's own development.

Trojina · Mar 10, 2011

Yes I've read alot lately about how people who treat you this way are an opportunity to learn to 'stand in your own power' ...and of course 44 in relationships is oft some way of getting you to stand out of your own power, to abdicate your own power, to move over for this oh so important 44 factor

34.1 shows you out of your depth somewhat though...so initially it wouldn't be easy and too determined an approach would certainly backfire...:hide:however by line 4 you cracked it

. I think 34 suggests you be very aware of your own strength and play by the rules...as in being totally straight about it, no tactics or questionable methods (such as spanking :rofl:

)

46 as relating....growth and expansion (46) into your own power (34)

you go for it girl

ompom:

arabella · Mar 10, 2011

trojan said:
Yes I've read alot lately about how people who treat you this way are an opportunity to learn to 'stand in your own power' ...and of course 44 in relationships is oft some way of getting you to stand out of your own power, to abdicate your own power, to move over for this oh so important 44 factor

34.1 shows you out of your depth somewhat though...so initially it wouldn't be easy and too determined an approach would certainly backfire...:hide:however by line 4 you cracked it . I think 34 suggests you be very aware of your own strength and play by the rules...as in being totally straight about it, no tactics or questionable methods (such as spanking )

46 as relating....growth and expansion (46) into your own power (34)

you go for it girl ompom:

Obviously, I won't need the blue sofa then -- although I LOVE it. I'll definitely be wielding the big axled cart in this standoff. I admit, I am a bit pushed to deal with this guy and how dare he get himself tangled around my Hex 44. How dare he intrude in my current Yi reverie? How can HE or his like be hex 44, my wonderful mystifying hex of the hour?

I keep wondering WHY he sets me on my heels. I'm not afraid of him, yet somehow he embarrasses me being so......patriarchal, like he has some right. Why does that get me flustered?? I've given myself the old pep talk a number of times: he's just a guy for pete's sake. OK, older, VERY sure of himself. But mocking me? No way. By the way, I'll take the pom poms, just in case the cart doesn't impress, they're bound to give him a case of Hex 34. And, if not, I'll be back for the sofa. XO Arabella

Trojina · Mar 10, 2011

arabella said:
Obviously, I won't need the blue sofa then -- although I LOVE it. I'll definitely be wielding the big axled cart in this standoff. I admit, I am a bit pushed to deal with this guy and how dare he get himself tangled around my Hex 44. How dare he intrude in my current Yi reverie? How can HE or his like be hex 44, my wonderful mystifying hex of the hour?

I keep wondering WHY he sets me on my heels. I'm not afraid of him, yet somehow he embarrasses me being so......patriarchal, like he has some right. Why does that get me flustered?? I've given myself the old pep talk a number of times: he's just a guy for pete's sake. OK, older, VERY sure of himself. But mocking me? No way. By the way, I'll take the pom poms, just in case the cart doesn't impress, they're bound to give him a case of Hex 34. And, if not, I'll be back for the sofa. XO Arabella

if you knew the kinds of queries I've had 44 for you'd lose all faith in the Margaret Pearson approach.

Perhaps you admire him so are particulary susceptible to any put down by him ?...Perhaps he has a quality you feel you don't...and you want it...you have some need for his approval ?

Perhaps approval is too strong a word but naturally we expect friends to be nice to us. I've had female friends who in the course of a perfectly amicable conversation drop in digs so fast and subtle its not till hours later I even realised the hurt of it....by which time its too late to respond. It wasn't because I admired them that it bothered me but that they were 'friends' doing all the things friends do....a friend has special status in our lives so its only natural that if they try to wound us we'd experience some dissonance and question that status...

Mind you i think of that kind of 'dig' as a particularly female/female dynamic...he being male and you female adds another element...whether thats down to repressed attraction i can't say

re the blue sofa I'd still keep it handy if i were you...at first

arabella · Mar 12, 2011

trojan said:
if you knew the kinds of queries I've had 44 for you'd lose all faith in the Margaret Pearson approach.

Perhaps you admire him so are particulary susceptible to any put down by him ?...Perhaps he has a quality you feel you don't...and you want it...you have some need for his approval ?

Perhaps approval is too strong a word but naturally we expect friends to be nice to us. I've had female friends who in the course of a perfectly amicable conversation drop in digs so fast and subtle its not till hours later I even realised the hurt of it....by which time its too late to respond. It wasn't because I admired them that it bothered me but that they were 'friends' doing all the things friends do....a friend has special status in our lives so its only natural that if they try to wound us we'd experience some dissonance and question that status...

Mind you i think of that kind of 'dig' as a particularly female/female dynamic...he being male and you female adds another element...whether thats down to repressed attraction i can't say

re the blue sofa I'd still keep it handy if i were you...at first

Yes, I have admired him, vice versa, or so he says. Which has made this turn of events even more surprising. I did think that we are friends of a sort, not buddies, but friendly anyway. He's also generally nice to everybody, which makes these "digs" even harder to accept or put in any perspective. The male/female and repressed attraction thing I have to think on. Some days I'd give that 6 on a scale of 1 to 10, and some days I'd give it a minus 4. He's hard to read -- maybe THAT's THE 44 ELEMENT?

Have to think about this last post overnight Trojan. Definitely food for thought. Sorry, no icons of a sandwich here or I'd post one.....

chingching · Mar 12, 2011

Caught in interpretative crossfire! Help!

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(deceased)

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