Nine in the fifth place means:
Men bound in fellowship first weep and lament,
But afterward they laugh.
After great struggles they succeed in meeting.

After researching this line a while ago for a reading regarding a long term personal goal, I became especially impressed by the mention of understanding 'the necessity of adversity' in one of the interpretations I read (I think it was Wilhelm).

It speaks to me about resilience and acceptance and having faith in a positive outcome, and it is possibly one of the most inspiring and powerful pieces of advice I have had from the iching in a long time, and I was wondering if anyone had anything else to add to unravel the symbolism further, or just experiences with this line that might help me explore it further.

Many thanks,

ST

stark tree said:

Nine in the fifth place means:
Men bound in fellowship first weep and lament,
But afterward they laugh.
After great struggles they succeed in meeting.

After researching this line a while ago for a reading regarding a long term personal goal, I became especially impressed by the mention of understanding 'the necessity of adversity' in one of the interpretations I read (I think it was Wilhelm).

It speaks to me about resilience and acceptance and having faith in a positive outcome, and it is possibly one of the most inspiring and powerful pieces of advice I have had from the iching in a long time, and I was wondering if anyone had anything else to add to unravel the symbolism further, or just experiences with this line that might help me explore it further.

Many thanks,

ST

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it is I found it beautiful too , especially what Confucius says, but....

But when two people are at one in the inmost hearts,

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this is the tricky part, imo. There is a condition , only when.... if not ... forgetaboutit

perhaps its a premature observation but so far this is how i see it.

hi anemos and everybody,

i hope you dont mind me resuming this thread after some time but I wanted to go and do some thinking about this line before replying.

I guess what interests me is not so much whether or not the two people are 'together in their innermost hearts' as I have a feeling that, as divination goes, the line seems to imply that an inner connection already exists, but that outer conditions are somewhat difficult and get in the way 'of the fellowship' (even though the final outcome is joy).

What I'm more interested in investigating is why the line talks of two people rather than a group (fellowship).
I don't particularly see 13 as a 'romance hexagram' (although i did get it once in response to a possible rimance that would have involved quite a lot of fellowship upheaval as my family was against it!)but somehow the various interpretations I've read of this line sound almost hopelessly romantic (see confucius: 'when two people understand each other..their words are as sweet as the frangrance of orchids, ect..)

The various txts I've approached all seem to point to two people in this line. Does anyone have any thoughts as to why?

Many thanks
ST

dunno if you already saw this thread but i related a 13.5 experience today


http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=13559



Another time i recall getting 13.5 was when i was accused of fraud by a government body. I asked what the outcome would be and got 13.5. They found me innocent and the guy who'd been investigating it had a fairly casual chat with me about the letter saying they would take no further action.


This had nothing to do with our innermost hearts nor did the example I linked to....not in a romantic sense that is......but what the 2 situations had in common i feel is just a kind of common sense of humanity..?.hard to know how to put it. In the fraud thing the letters were terrifying ...but when I spoke to the person who sent them to me he was quite pleasant and reassuring and human as in "look we have to do this, its routine because of X, Y Z". Even the letter saying no further action would be taken managed to be terrifying until I called him and he explained they were all written that way.

So we were 2 people meeting on a human level in a situation of terrifying beaurocracy. So for 13.5 I've found it can be the inmost heart of your tax man or your bin man (garbage man to the americans) you connect with...and although its not romance its good and cheering that people divided by outer things can connect within all the massive structures of society that seperate such as class and position...and law etc etc


Similarly with the example I linked to the relationship definately lacked any kind of intimacy, we were looking to work together but there felt this same quality of sort of non intimate comradeship of just being human


Presumably there are times 13.5 refers to romance but 13 is just not a romantic hexagram IMO...its about brotherhood and sisterhood and the whole lot of us. So maybe the 2 people is 2 people in the midst of all that just being able to connect amidst difficulties

FWIW, I hear a resonance with 61.3:

Six in the third place means:
He finds a comrade.
Now he beats the drum, now he stops.
Now he sobs, now he sings.

Here the source of a man's strength lies not in himself but in his relation to
other people. No matter how close to them he may be, if his center of gravity
depends on them, he is inevitably tossed to and fro between joy and sorrow.
Rejoicing to high heaven, then sad unto death-this is the fate of those who
depend upon an inner accord with other persons whom they love. Here we
have only the statement of the law that this is so. Whether this condition is
felt to be an affliction of the supreme happiness of love, is left to the
subjective verdict of the person concerned.

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The difference, as noted above, is that the former is about a communal expression of emotion while the latter is more personal -- Several people moving through adversity to a reconciliation cp: the individual dependent on others as a means of self-definition.

On another discussion group of late I've seen the notion that adversity -- "friction" -- is a necessity for all progress. There can be no dawn without darkness etc.

Over time, I've gotten a real b'ah humbug response to this line as representing any sort of guarantee of a lasting rosy outcome or reconciliation amongst friends, associates or enemies, to say nothing of the fact that nothing lasts forever. So in theory anyway, I'd have to agree with the conditional and likely temporal aspect of 13.5. Like the story of how a fierce WW2 battle came to a sudden halt one Christmas eve, when the Germans and allies were overcome with a shared peaceful spirit of the moment, and the following day they resumed killing one another. Not to say that an eventual lasting peace isn't possible, just that it is conditional upon shared sentiment. But I don't believe that anything lasting is implicit in the line. It is significant that this changes to 30, which is a conditional paradigm, based not so much on pragmatism but on sentiment - hence the 'at one in their inmost hearts' condition. The Fan Yao can also support this position, which is entirely sentimental, that is to say moved to change according to the heart. This doesn't imply a romantic image, only simpatico.

Like twins who have been separated at birth and spend their whole lives missing and searching for one another, and then, one day, they meet and are together and there is joy..

I think the line simply points to a development or a connection that is good but cannot temporarily be achieved due to various awkward influences. The two people is just probably the easiest way to portray a 'connection'? (just a thought)

Thank you guys. My internet connection is behaving rather intermittently at the moment so i can't always access the site.

i think as it's often the case the situation (or question) to which the hex or line response applies has a lot of play in the interpretation of the symbolism, and in my case I have a feeling that there is both a sort of romantic and a purely practical underlying in the answer.

I agree that the two people would simply signify 'connection' but in my case there is no denying it is me and the person this project is inspired by, therefore the two people image is spot on.

Very interesting discussion,
thanks a lot everyone xx

ST

I drew 13.5 > 30 a couple of weeks ago before going to an opening, I didnt really want to go and asked yi how could i make the best of the time.

When I arrived one of my friends came over to me and said "have you met my friend" and I look at the man next to him and said earnestly "no I havent, hello please to meet you" and then they both broke out into bales of laughter as the 'stranger' was one of my old workmates and friend who has been in malayasia for a couple of years and had grown a very long and rustic beard, and I did not recognise him at all. The night was great, I love hanging out with those two, but like 30 it lasted as long as the party did and that was that.

You know,

I was just trying to get my head round some work issues, and something about this reading just clicked for me.
I realised that whenever I get 13, the iching is trying to tell me the issues surrounding the situation are primarily of a 'social' nature, ie how to juggle my own goals in the context of a wider, often (but not always) complex social picture. unless those are dealt with steadfast honesty and clarity, not much can be achieved.
This can be true of either romantic or professional connections.
In this case, I see 13.5 as a sort 'against all odds' situation, which very much resonates with what I'm trying to do.
hope that makes sense!
ST

Has anyone seen the line 5 of hex 13 referring to romance 2 lovers that finally unite?

I have received this in regard to logistics before a romance - such as breaking up with a current bf/gf in order to move forward with another relationship.

nAstWr said:

Has anyone seen the line 5 of hex 13 referring to romance 2 lovers that finally unite?

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Yes, I got that line today myself.

I-ching Online.Net says of this line: "He is drawn to another. He fights the attraction fiercely, but his later surrender brings joy." Sure would be nice!

I got this line a few years ago about a flat I wanted to buy. I had to bid on it 3 times, the first 2 times it was sold to other buyers that the sellers knew personally (part of their clan?) but each time the sale fell through. Eventually, 6 months later, they came back to me and I bought it. So after a lot of struggles and disappointments, it did work out as I had hoped. The strife was worth it!