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Ideograms vary so much!

IrfanK

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I'm really enjoying Alfred Huang's description of the meanings and background of the various ideograms. It almost makes me want to take up calligraphy. I might go and buy a brush and some ink this weekend!

But I notice that in various translations of the Yi Jing, the ideograms are presented very differently. I can barely make out the common features sometimes between Huang's versions and Willhelm's.

Does anyone have any good sources on the ideagrams, or on Chinese calligraphy generally?
 
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peterg

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Wengu is'nt bad to get you started with the chinese characters though there must be better sources around :
http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php

Calligraphy sounds like a good exercise in meditation. Apart from the number of strokes there is a correct order in which to draw the strokes.

pg
 

heylise

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The modern-traditional characters, which are now only used in Taiwan, have a fixed form. They can vary in the way they are drawn, and that makes them very different, even though they have the same basic strokes. Grass script looks really like grass...Then there is also the simplified form which is now the standard in mainland China. But they are all quite far from the original ideograms.

In the time of the Shang, before the YiJing got written down, the ideograms could vary a lot, depending on the scribe. Or maybe because writing was still developing. It is like old English, words are written in any way which sounds more or less the way they were pronounced. In Chinese: more or less like what they should depict. There were no fixed rules yet.

qian-01-001.gif
qian-01.gif

Two ways of writing qian, hex. 1. The first one is probably older. Both are a picture of fluttering banners attached to a pole or halberd. The second with "dawn" added.
 

charly

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...
Does anyone have any good sources on the ideagrams, or on Chinese calligraphy generally?
Hi, Irfan:

There are many sources.

For a beginner interested in the Changes, I believe taht a good way is:

1) To study the names of the hexagrams in the page of LiSe, The Book of Sun and Moon:


2) To practice chinese script like a westerner, using a fountain pen, with Johan Byorksten´s Learn to write chinese characters, available free at 4shared: [Press the grey button DOWNLOAD NOW, wait some seconds and click the link DOWNLOAD FILE NOW, follow the instructions]


3) In Yellowbridge you have the chinese received text of the Changes syncromized with Legge´s translation, a chinese english dictionary, an application for seeing the stroke order of the main characters and much more:



Begin with the first two, have fun and don´t worry for time. After trying LiSe and Byorksten you will be able to face chinese calligraphy better eqquiped.

You also can read Prof. Owen´s Evolution of chinese writing, availabe free at Archive.org:


All the best,


Charly
 
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arabella

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Hi, Irfan:

There are many sources.

For a beginner interested in the Changes, I believe taht a good way is:

1) To study the names of the hexagrams in the page of LiSe, The Book of Sun and Moon:


2) To practice chinese script like a westerner, using a fountain pen, with Johan Byorksten´s Learn to write chinese characters, available free at 4shared: [Press the grey button DOWNLOAD NOW, wait some seconds and click the link DOWNLOAD FILE NOW, follow the instructions]


3) In Yellowbridge you have the chinese received text of the Changes syncromized with Legge´s translation, a chinese english dictionary, an application for seeing the stroke order of the main characters and much more:



Begin with the first two, have fun and don´t worry for time. After trying LiSe and Byorksten you will be able to face chinese calligraphy better eqquiped.

You also can read Prof. Owen´s Evolution of chinese writing, availabe free at Archive.org:


All the best,


Charly


I'm so excited about the possibilities here. I've never really thought of it before. But, is the basic purpose of calligraphy and its tradition a part of meditation and "painting" the influence of the hexagram into your life?

Because this seems like what I'd do with it, although it only just occured to me that this would be possible and a reason for the meditative process of putting the hexagram and probably names of the hexagrams onto paper: to bring them into the moment and into your personal reality.:hug:
 

arabella

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I suppose i wasn't very clear in saying why calligraphy in relation to the Yi Ching is so exciting. And I'm considering idea of calligraphy of the Yi hexagram names as a potential analogy with the transcription of ancient guidance, mantras and prayers that were transcribed in various shapes to increase their energy and import. And I'm also thinking of "in the beginning was the Word." And that the original Word was spoken or sounded; but that there is also influence and vibration in the writing of characters/words and even of thoughts or meditation on these symbols. If what is written is the pure symbol itself and it is produced in a meditative state, doesn't that have particular inspirational influence? Is this in itself a creative force, a conjuring or divinatory Art, a kind of alchemy? Anyway, I would think so.
 

charly

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I suppose i wasn't very clear in saying why calligraphy in relation to the Yi Ching is so exciting. And I'm considering idea of calligraphy of the Yi hexagram names as a potential analogy with the transcription of ancient guidance, mantras and prayers that were transcribed in various shapes to increase their energy and import. And I'm also thinking of "in the beginning was the Word." And that the original Word was spoken or sounded; but that there is also influence and vibration in the writing of characters/words and even of thoughts or meditation on these symbols. If what is written is the pure symbol itself and it is produced in a meditative state, doesn't that have particular inspirational influence? Is this in itself a creative force, a conjuring or divinatory Art, a kind of alchemy? Anyway, I would think so.
Hi, Arabella:

Practicing chinese calligraphy as a meditative discipline requires a strong will and some proficiency handling traditional chinese characters that can be acquired with the book of Byorksten.

But the shape of traditional character has lost much of the so called «ideographic» or iconic value, it belongs to the times of Han dynasty for it´s standarized, characters are built using some number of strokes each with fixed shape and following fixed rules with little exceptions.

That´s why some editions of the Changes bring the characters in small seal style, also standarized and simplified with respect to the earlier calligraphy, but more «ideographic» than the Han characters. It belongs to the times of Chin dynasty, the first that unified China as an empire. Much online dictionaries bring the small seal style for each character.

Maybe this style is more apt for meditative practice. Of course, the Changes is much more ancient. It belongs to the Zhou dynasty during which the characters were not standarized, lacked of elements added later and were drawn with much variations.

I believe that for drawing even only the something more that 64 characters needed for the hexagram names, the best way is to begin with the traditional style, although less iconic, passing later to the small seal characters.

For tracing the iconic values, which is matter of polemic, one must go to sources like Chineseetymology.org by Sears that bings much of the known bone and bronze variants.

I believe. Not all think like me.

Good luck and all the best.


Charly
 
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arabella

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Hi, Arabella:

Practicing chinese calligraphy as a meditative discipline requires a strong will and some proficiency handling traditional chinese characters that can be acquired with the book of Byorksten.

But the shape of traditional character has lost much of the so called «ideographic» or iconic value, it belongs to the times of Han dynasty for it´s standarized, characters are built using some number of strokes each with fixed shape and following fixed rules with little exceptions.

That´s why some editions of the Changes bring the characters in small seal style, also standarized and simplified with respect to the earlier calligraphy, but more «ideographic» than the Han characters. It belongs to the times of Chin dynasty, the first that unified China as an empire. Much online dictionaries bring the small seal style for each character.

Maybe this style is more apt for meditative practice. Of course, the Changes is much more ancient. It belongs to the Zhou dynasty during which the characters were not standarized, lacked of elements added later and were drawn with much variations.

I believe that for drawing even only the something more that 64 characters needed for the hexagram names, the best way is to begin with the traditional style, although less iconic, passing later to the small seal characters.

For tracing the iconic values, which is matter of polemic, one must go to sources like Chineseetymology.org by Sears that bings much of the known bone and bronze variants.

I believe. Not all think like me.

Good luck and all the best.


Charly

Thank you for this explanation Charly. Are you saying that the spiritual influence has mostly gone out of these symbols and that they retain only practical meaning>? What spiritual dispensation would you equate them with: Buddhism, Confucianism? Others?

If in fact the words are much diminished in spiritual energy it is really stunning to imagine their power initially. I'm just wondering if it can be amplified in meditative writing. Thanks, :hug:
 
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peterg

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Calligraphy. Meditation. Chinese Text Project.

Practising Chinese calligraphy as 'a meditative discipline requiring a strong will ' is a little more complicated than what I had in mind.
I was thinking of bringing a meditative frame of mind to the art and practice of calligraphy and so turning it into an exercise in meditation. Much as one might do with the simple repetitive movements of yarrow.
A meditative frame of mind of the kind acquired through surrendering ones body to gravity and listening to the sound of ones breathing.It works well with yarrow.I just thought it might work with calligraphy.

In regard to the link to the Chinese Text Project which I posted previously :
Facebook dont like this link.They blocked it on grounds of 'automated downloading' of huge amounts of information about the website. Dont know what that means but grounds for caution perhaps.

In the context here, Wu Jing Nuan's book ''Yijing'' is recommended. For the basic text he gives the Chinese characters and underneath an equivalent English word.He includes a discussion of the key characters and ideas in the text.
I wish Karcher and Ritsema had done the same though they are still my 'desert island' text.
pg
 

heylise

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I suppose i wasn't very clear in saying why calligraphy in relation to the Yi Ching is so exciting. And I'm considering idea of calligraphy of the Yi hexagram names as a potential analogy with the transcription of ancient guidance, mantras and prayers that were transcribed in various shapes to increase their energy and import. And I'm also thinking of "in the beginning was the Word." And that the original Word was spoken or sounded; but that there is also influence and vibration in the writing of characters/words and even of thoughts or meditation on these symbols. If what is written is the pure symbol itself and it is produced in a meditative state, doesn't that have particular inspirational influence? Is this in itself a creative force, a conjuring or divinatory Art, a kind of alchemy? Anyway, I would think so.
I think it would work. Even contemplating a hexagram, not the text, just the Chinese character and a vague image of its meaning, is like a meditation. For me it makes stress and such leave.

Drawing it, following the way the character is built up, and repeating that over and over, filling a sheet with it, bigger, smaller, any way you happen to get it on the paper. :bows:
 

arabella

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I think it would work. Even contemplating a hexagram, not the text, just the Chinese character and a vague image of its meaning, is like a meditation. For me it makes stress and such leave.

Drawing it, following the way the character is built up, and repeating that over and over, filling a sheet with it, bigger, smaller, any way you happen to get it on the paper. :bows:

Yes, this is what had occured to me, because the implication of the Creative Word from a Higher Source is that creative energy/force is forever imparted to those words when they are "given" to civilised people by means of whatever dispensation they arrived.

I know this is an ancient alphabet/dictionary, but I'd imagine that elements of that civilisation can be amplified, magnified, by contemplation and meditation on their symbolism, and particularly their most meaningful words associated with instructive guidance. This is I think similar to meditating upon a revealed mantra or prayer.

Thanks you Heylise. I will try this. :bows:
 
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IrfanK

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I like hearing what Alfred Huang has to say about the ideographs. He always explains the symbols so that they have meaning: Great Accumulation shows a person with a puffed chest standing over fields and food supplies, he says, for example.

Since I like doodling and playing with fountain pens, I can easily fill a half hour copying out the symbol and trying to make it look nice. I do that in between reading the comments and the symbol and the lines. I suppose you could call it meditation, I just think of it as doodling and pondering.
 

heylise

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Calligraph.jpg

Strips of rice-paper with the characters of the hexagrams. I put them under the transparent cover of my YiJing-workbook.
 
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hilary

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This reminds me of something from Margaret Pearson's book: writing the characters for the Image of her reading again and again during the day, especially during meetings when there was nothing for her to say.
 

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