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Karcher recommendations

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I don't have a translation by Karcher yet and am currently looking around on amazon for one. Shouldn't every Yi-man and Yi-woman own one?! :D
I just read Clarity's book reviews and am still not sure which Karcher to start with... :confused:

I was getting overwhelmed looking at the different options on Amazon and decided I would flee to my favorite virtual community for some advice. :bows:


Perhaps - The I Ching Plain and Simple: A Guide to Working with the Oracle of Change??

Or - I Ching: The Classic Chinese Oracle of Change -- The First Complete Translation with Concordance??

and lastly, I have in my online shopping cart - Ta Chuan: The Great Treatise??

Any feedback?? :confused:
 

heylise

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Ta Chuan, or Da Chuan, is beautiful but not YiJing.

I have the big one with concordance, but it is not Karcher's but made by Ritsema + Karcher. Great if you want to dive into translating yourself, or at least figure out what a particular line actually says in Chinese, but not for simple casting and expecting an answer you can make sense of.

I don't know the "Guide".

"The elements of I Ching", nice one.

"How to use the I Ching", same

I like his introductions a lot. The book itself is usually not bad at all. I seldom use one, but now and then I re-read the introductions.
 

bamboo

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I think the Guide and How To Use the I Ching are the same book, one a later edition, the sub-title is the same. I have How to Use the I ching, and the big Ritsema Karcher edition. I'd skip the big one and get the Guide..if it is indeed the same book as How To Use the I Ching, then there are interesting parts in the intro about steps of change methods which are fun to play around with in readings
 

beyond_the_veil

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I have Karcher's Total I Ching. I just picked it up again after setting it aside for months and I am enjoying it. I actually like the book due to it's practical nature. The ancient shamanistic bent can be a bit thick for me, but for what it is geared for I wouldn't hesitate to pick it up. Just imagine yourself at night sitting next to a fire while a shaman is doing ritual and chanting to the gods in hopes to connect and divine the answer to your question. This is the feel that I get when reading this book, so if you're into that kind of thing, go for it.
 
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riurik

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Ta Chuan, or Da Chuan, is beautiful but not YiJing.

Ta Chuan IS Yi Jing.
YiJing = ZhouYi + 10 wings including the Ta Chuan

Of course, you can work only with Zhou Yi and put aside the wings. But the wings are part of Yi Jing.

For better or for worse -especially if you have strong feelings against confucionism- it was the Yi Jing the one which was influential enough to become a source of Chinese culture, not the Zhou Yi alone. By the time when there was only the Zhou Yi with no wings, it was merely an elitist collection of ritual omens.

I'm not saying that we must use the wings (in fact, this site rarely use them and it's ok; they are not needed here). But let's get this straight, the wings are Yi Jing
 
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anemos

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Ta Chuan IS
I'm not saying that we must use the wings (in fact, this site rarely use them and it's ok; they are not needed here).

Could you elaborate this a bit more ?
thanks
 
S

sooo

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Ta Chuan IS Yi Jing.
YiJing = ZhouYi + 10 wings including the Ta Chuan

Of course, you can work only with Zhou Yi and put aside the wings. But the wings are part of Yi Jing.

For better or for worse -especially if you have strong feelings against confucionism- it was the Yi Jing the one which was influential enough to become a source of Chinese culture, not the Zhou Yi alone. By the time when there was only the Zhou Yi with no wings, it was merely an elitist collection of ritual omens.

I'm not saying that we must use the wings (in fact, this site rarely use them and it's ok; they are not needed here). But let's get this straight, the wings are Yi Jing

munch.gif
 

arabella

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You look very cute there, Sooo, all settled in for the explanation of this statement next to Anemos. I'm with you! Can't wait to hear the elaboration on this opinion. Riurik, you have an audience.:bows:
 
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sooo

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Well, if the Clarity experts volunteer their points of view as per usual, I'm particularly curious how Riurik will respond to them. Being no expert myself, I welcome all points of view on this subject. Riurik is correct, in that we seldom hear much, if anything, regarding the Wings, as they've for over a decade been quickly put out like a lit cigarette during high mass.
 
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riurik

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Could you elaborate this a bit more ?
thanks

All I'm saying is that you can do great without knowing that such thing as the Wings even exist. I'm not a Confucionist or "pro-Wings" preacher :rofl: [although I've been already accused of being arrogant and rigid because I made a joke about the Yijing textually saying that 55 means a lot of worries. I understood that if most of people here didnt get my joke was because many people here haven't read the Wings]

But to say that Ta Chuan is not Yi Jing is not accurate
 

Sparhawk

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Ta Chuan IS Yi Jing.
YiJing = ZhouYi + 10 wings including the Ta Chuan

Well, Riurik has a point but I also think he misread what LiSe is saying. I understood her immediately. Since we are talking about Karcher, she refers to his "Ta Chuan" translation. A dedicated translation of that particular 'wing' of the Yijing, which, indeed, it is NOT one of the several Yijing published by him.
 

anemos

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All I'm saying is that you can do great without knowing that such thing as the Wings even exist. I'm not a Confucionist or "pro-Wings" preacher :rofl: [although I've been already accused of being arrogant and rigid because I made a joke about the Yijing textually saying that 55 means a lot of worries. I understood that if most of people here didnt get my joke was because many people here haven't read the Wings]

But to say that Ta Chuan is not Yi Jing is not accurate

the reason I asked had nothing to do with the quoted.

I know not much about the wings and to be honest i though they are included in my whilhelms translation :)bag:) ( commentaries etc) so I was looking for more info.

if you have the time , it would be nice to tell us more. or give us examples. I really want to understand . :)
 

arabella

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the reason I asked had nothing to do with the quoted.

I know not much about the wings and to be honest i though they are included in my whilhelms translation :)bag:) ( commentaries etc) so I was looking for more info.

if you have the time , it would be nice to tell us more. or give us examples. I really want to understand . :)

Yes, I agree....still listening...and...and....:)
 

anemos

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Summary of the Ten Wings

In writing notes and comments on the Zhouyi, the author would have to make an assumption that those Yi aficionados reading the blog would have acquired a minimum of ten years reading the Book of Changes and also own a copy of the Richard Wilhelm translation. However not all readers would fall under the categories of a minimal ten years of study and/or owning a W/B translation, therefore one has to summarize the Ten Wings for fellow students who would like to know more about the technical aspects of Yi studies, and/or about the Ten Wings.

"In the Wilhelm/ Baynes English translation, Richard Wilhelm explained in Book II – The Material – that The Book of Changes is a work that represents thousands of years of slow prolonged reflection and meditation. The material presented in the second portion of their translation consists chiefly of what has come to be known as the Ten Wings. These ten wings, or expositions, contain in substance the oldest commentary literature relating to the Book of Changes.

The first of the commentaries – the First and Second Wings – is called Tuan Zhuan. The Tuan Zhuan or Commentary on the Decision gives exact interpretations of King Wen’s decisions (judgments), on the basis of the structure and the other elements of the hexagrams. This commentary (made available under individual hexagrams in Book III) is an extremely thorough and valuable piece of work and throws much light upon the inner organization of the hexagrams of the I Ching. The Chinese ascribed it to Confucius.

The Third and Fourth Wings are formed by the so-called Xiang Zhuan, Commentary on the Images. In its present form it consists of the so-called Great Images (Da Xiang), which refer to the images associated with the two trigrams in each hexagram; from these the commentary in each case deduces the meaning of the hexagram as a whole, and from this contemplation in turn draws conclusions applicable to the life of man. Besides the Great Images, this commentary contains also the Small Images. These are very brief references to the Duke of Zhou’s comments on the individual lines of the hexagrams.

The Fifth and Six Wings constitute a treatise that presents many difficulties. It is entitled Hsi Tzu, or Da Zhuan, and likewise has two parts. The title Da Zhuan means Great Commentary, or Great Treatise.

The Seventh Wing, named Wen Yen (Commentary on the Words of the Text), is a very important section. It is the remnant of a commentary on the Book of Changes – or rather of a whole series of such commentaries – and contains very valuable material deriving from the Confucian school. Unfortunately it does not go beyond the second hexagram, Kun.

The Eighth Wing, Shuo Kua, Discussion of the Trigrams, contains material of great antiquity in explanation of the eight primary trigrams.

The Ninth Wing, Hsu Kua, the Sequence – or Order – of the Hexagrams, offers a rather unconvincing explanation of the present sequence of the hexagrams. It is interesting only because the names of the hexagrams are sometimes given peculiar interpretations that are undoubtedly based on ancient tradition.

The last (Tenth) wing, Tsa Kua, Miscellaneous Notes on the Hexagrams, is made up of definitions of the hexagrams in mnemonics verses, for the most part contrasting them in pairs. "
[W/B]

Still, I would suggest that students should only delve deeper into the Ten Wings (mainly made available in Books II and III of the W/B translation) after a minimum ten years of Yi studies otherwise they could be confused.

source : http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot.com/2007/12/summary-of-ten-wings.html
 
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riurik

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Well... not sure what to write about. :bag:


Of course, some wings are easier than others. Allan's post is a great summary. Altough I highly respect him, I disagree about the 10 years period before studying the wings. Maybe 10 years before the Da Zhuan, but for the others is ok from the begging IMHO


When it comes to understand the text, I've found helpful the Xiang Zhuan, the Tsa Kua and the Tuan Zhuan in that order; but not so much the Hsu Kua.


Studying the Shuo Kua is great to develop a more poetic & free-style understanding of the answers. With all those associations, your mind is full of thoughts to apply the answer to your real facts.

Da Zhuan is complex and not so practical. It's great sudying it when you want to grasp the taste on how the confucionists understood the cultural relevance of the Yi. But no much more than that IMHO.

The Hsu Kua is a (failed?) attempt to justify the canonical order, but as Allan said is not really convincing. You can find there some insight to real answers from time to time tough.


Example: 7 years ago a woman came to me in great disappointment about Yi's accuracy. She explained to me that she got 55 unchanging for her annual reading regarding her marriage. She and everyone else interpreted good fortune and a fulfilling marriage life to come. 11 months later it came to pass that she divorced him. I immediately said: "of course, feng means lots of worries", because that is what the Tsa Kua says about hex 55 and this was an unchinging answer, but you must not be sad since eventually you'll find the good fortune out of this tough decision. One year later, she came back to say she was doing much better after the divorce than when she was married.

Not sure if this is what you were looking for. :)
 
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riurik

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I've always remembered this story, so when Gato posted about 55 as new year's congratulation I started a joke :rofl:
 
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riurik

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I agreed with your comment based on the change lines, not even considering the Wings.

I remember that.

My joke was about why to trust in what the Yi Jing says about the meaning of an hexagram.

Of course, if some people doesn't know that the Yi Jing actually says: "feng means lots of worries" they would think -as some did- that this was my own personal take on the meaning of hex 55
 
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sooo

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Not sure if this is what you were looking for. :)

I'm just listening.

Regarding feng, I believe there are different meanings for it, depending on context. Perhaps someone will be more specific, or perhaps they decide not to participate for some reason. I hope I haven't offended them with my cigarette joke. Jokes aren't always received well here. :)
 

anemos

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Thanks !

When it comes to understand the text, I've found helpful the Xiang Zhuan, the Tsa Kua and the Tuan Zhuan in that order; but not so much the Hsu Kua.


Studying the Shuo Kua is great to develop a more poetic & free-style understanding of the answers. With all those associations, your mind is full of thoughts to apply the answer to your real facts.

Could you provide some examples of the first 3 ?
 

heylise

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Ta Chuan IS Yi Jing.
YiJing = ZhouYi + 10 wings including the Ta Chuan

Of course, you can work only with Zhou Yi and put aside the wings. But the wings are part of Yi Jing.

For better or for worse -especially if you have strong feelings against confucionism- it was the Yi Jing the one which was influential enough to become a source of Chinese culture, not the Zhou Yi alone. By the time when there was only the Zhou Yi with no wings, it was merely an elitist collection of ritual omens.

I'm not saying that we must use the wings (in fact, this site rarely use them and it's ok; they are not needed here). But let's get this straight, the wings are Yi Jing
Yes, you're right, Da Zhuan (or Ta Chuan) is Yi Jing. But I understood from the question that it was about Yi itself. Should have said "not Zhou Yi". That would have been correct.
 

heylise

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I really love the Xiang Zhuan, and especially the Da Xiang part: about the trigrams and how the Junzi behaves according to them. It must have been written by someone with a very wise mind and a great insight in the hexagrams and trigrams.
 
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riurik

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But I understood from the question that it was about Yi itself. Should have said "not Zhou Yi". That would have been correct.

Well, this is an interesting one. What would be Yi itself? Why Yi itself would be the Zhou Yi? Because traditionally even the text known as Zhou Yi is understood merely as a commentary to the hexagrams - meaning a group of symbolic lines without any word attached.

I know this is problematic, because it's a circular argument. The concept that first you have only the lines and then King Wen and the Duke of Zhou wrote the text to help people undertand the symbols; and then others wrote the Wings to help people understand further... well that is found in one on the Wings :footinmouth:. If you disregard the wings as Yi itself, well then whatever the wings say about the Zhou Yi being just commentary to the symbolic lines is not convincible :duh:

On the other hand, putting aside the traditional account of Yi's history, it seems like the Zhou Yi is more a collection of multiple diverse ancient omens put together. Maybe the text is independent and even older than the hexagram lines.

On the other other hand :D, we have at least 2 other oracles that use hexagrams, not only in diferent order but with diferent text than the Zhou Yi

So... why the Zhou Yi would be the Yi itself?

And here is where what I said fits: for better or for worse, the one which became a keystone of Chinese culture was the Yi Jing. Without the evolution that led to the canonization of the commentaries portrayed in the wings, the Zhou Yi probably would had be irrelevant after 2 or 3 centuries.

But what do I know anyway?
 
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riurik

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I really love the Xiang Zhuan, and especially the Da Xiang part: about the trigrams and how the Junzi behaves according to them. It must have been written by someone with a very wise mind and a great insight in the hexagrams and trigrams.

Fully agreed. A departed friend used to say: whenever you ask abot how to behave or how to achieve a goal, put the emphasis on the Image. That advice has worked for me just fine.
 
S

sooo

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Fully agreed. A departed friend used to say: whenever you ask abot how to behave or how to achieve a goal, put the emphasis on the Image. That advice has worked for me just fine.

Is this the same as saying perception is reality?

I have an auto reflexive eye twitch when the words behave and junzi are used in the same sentence. ;)
 
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riurik

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Is this the same as saying perception is reality?

Mmmm, no. Let me try to explain myself better

When the question asked is about to receive insight on how would be better for you to act, you can read the name of both hexagrams, the omen (judgement in Wilhelm) of both hexagrams, the text of the changing lines in the first hexagram, etc. But my friend's advise is to center your interpretation of the answer in the Da Xiang text (Image, in Wilhelm) of the first hexagram.

Not that you MUST interpret this way. Not that you MUST behave this way. I mean, we're supposed to be grown up people right?, we don't need to make the Yi a "father" giving us orders to follow :D This is just an interpretative tool to make sense of the answer.

This has worked well for me in the past. many other people said this advice has helped them to achieve their goals.
 
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sooo

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Thank you, Riurik. Good response, or at least one I can easily agree with.
 

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