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arabella

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Over the past few months I've received an "inordinate" --- and to me especially undecipherable -- number of fated/unchanging castings.

Especially Hexagram 11 has come up again and again. [Also 51 and 15 on many occasions, which seems downright contradictory!]

Has left me wondering if anyone has ever written particularly about the unchanging hexagram and given a commentary on the 64 fated combinations? :)
 

hilary

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Erm... where does the idea come from that an unchanging casting is something 'fated'? What does that mean?

The only source I know of that gives distinct meanings for each hexagram unchanging is RL Wing's I Ching Workbook. But I'm not sure her meanings are actually very accurate... or if the task is even possible...
 

arabella

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Erm... where does the idea come from that an unchanging casting is something 'fated'? What does that mean?

The only source I know of that gives distinct meanings for each hexagram unchanging is RL Wing's I Ching Workbook. But I'm not sure her meanings are actually very accurate... or if the task is even possible...

It's a terminology I was taught as interchangeable with "unchanging" when learning the Yi Ching way back when. From what I understood it didn't mean that something was "destined for all time" but that, when the enquiry was cast, this was the only element in sight, or that this was undeniably the operative feature of the situation. Now I'm not so sure of my understanding -- that what was called "fated" was the same thing as "unchanging," since the idea of unchanging is far more obvious -- there simply are no changing lines. It became a subject of more interest to me lately because nearly every casting I've made in recent weeks had turned up the same: with a double hexagram-- and the same three or four hexagrams 11, 51, 15 and 48.

So now I would say, there are two parts to my question on Divination. First, I have heard this double-hexagram outcome described both as Fated and Unchanging -- and I don't know if they intend the same meaning or not. Has anyone else heard of these terms and know how they are intended? And, second, I don't really know the significance of having received this determination from the Yi and if there has been a special study done, other than the RL Wing that Hilary has just mentioned? And there, I suppose I'm asking if there is an omen, a spectrum of suppositions, or any deeper meaning for two of the same hexagrams having turned up -- except that maybe the influence of that hexagram or its image might be especially powerful, inescapable or most useful perhaps? And even then, why say it twice?
 
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Trojina

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there a numerous ways to see unchanging hexagrams

mine are


1. its a direct unequivocal answer. a simple answer. For example perhaps 42 unchanging there is pretty much a situation of increase and blessing.

2. its describing a situation you cannot really impact upon much...its how it is ...which is er pretty much the same as point 1 isn't it...hmmm

3. you can't quite access what ever the hex is about because you have no place to stand in regard to it...there is no relating hexagram so how do you relate to it ? No changing lines almost seems to mean you are outside of it...ooha again not disimilar to points 1 and 2


4. it can be emphatic advice particulary if you read the Image which is said to be more prominent with the unchanging hexagram


Some people make out an unchanging hexagram always means this or always means that and they.... are..... wrong. The same words can be spoken in a sentence but they mean entirely different things according to context and tone. I think ones intuition has to be engaged.


Why would it repeat you ask ?...same reason people repeat what they say...seems you didn't hear them the first time ? Its the same answer


R L Wings view of the unchanging hexagrams are pretty arbitrary. Its all down to your own feeling how you see the unchanging hexagram in any particular instance I think it varies alot, can be quite different at different times
 

hilary

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Everything Trojan said, plus

3a) You haven't yet chosen where to stand in relation to this, or where you're going with it. So 46 unchanging might be 'this ladder you're climbing... what wall is it leaning on, again?'

and either 3b) or 5), not sure which,
Sometimes this can wreak havoc with the original meaning of the hexagram. 52 unchanging is just very, very still. 11 unchanging is... weird and unpredictable. As if all that energy really wants a direction. It may be from this kind of thing that someone came up with the theory that an unchanging hexagram always means the opposite of its original meaning, something like a reversed card in tarot. That's certainly not true - but maybe if you got a string of 1, 11 and 49 unchanging it could seem to be.

Short version... 'unchanging' might be a kind of punctuation. For instance:
  • .
  • !
  • ...??
  • **?!*?&!!***
 

arabella

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][B]Everything Trojan said, plus

3a) You haven't yet chosen where to stand in relation to this, or where you're going with it. So 46 unchanging might be 'this ladder you're climbing... what wall is it leaning on, again?'

and either 3b) or 5), not sure which,
Sometimes this can wreak havoc with the original meaning of the hexagram. 52 unchanging is just very, very still. 11 unchanging is... weird and unpredictable. As if all that energy really wants a direction[/B].


OK, so are you saying that unchanging is an indication of over-emphasis pushed to a degree that the influence is distorted and in some hexagrams that distortion is predictable and in others not predictable?

You know, I'm wondering if it's worth undertaking a Rosada-style analysis/poll across the membership of what the 64 unchanging hexagrams are most likely to mean or what they've meant in experience anyway?:)
 

Trojina

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][B]Everything Trojan said, plus

3a) You haven't yet chosen where to stand in relation to this, or where you're going with it. So 46 unchanging might be 'this ladder you're climbing... what wall is it leaning on, again?'

and either 3b) or 5), not sure which,
Sometimes this can wreak havoc with the original meaning of the hexagram. 52 unchanging is just very, very still. 11 unchanging is... weird and unpredictable. As if all that energy really wants a direction[/B].


OK, so are you saying that unchanging is an indication of over-emphasis pushed to a degree that the influence is distorted and in some hexagrams that distortion is predictable and in others not predictable?

You know, I'm wondering if it's worth undertaking a Rosada-style analysis/poll across the membership of what the 64 unchanging hexagrams are most likely to mean or what they've meant in experience anyway?:)

You could just look at the unchanging casts in the hexagram index....or at wikiwing if you were in change circle.

I don't think you are going to pin the meaning down here, for you, by a majority vote ....lol

You thought you'd got your meaning with the first hex 11 unchanging...but you hadn't because you got it again, about the same subject. Theres more to understand


I find this with repetitive answers. I think I know how its played out....the situation seems done with, and then I cast the same cast again...so the answer must have been spanning above and beyond where I was looking for it or what I thought it was...or maybe it was hiding underneath where i was looking for it....OR... the answer transcended what I believed to be the actual concern I was asking about anyway


One thing I do know is no one else actually was ever able to reveal to me what my answer meant. Understanding seems to be a thing that happens in time...or doesn't...or hasn't yet. Others can help with thoughts and ideas, part of the process.....but in the end how that answer was meshed with your experience is pretty unique

I like a bit of mystery of anyway...and in my experience 11 unchanging is certainly that
 
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Trojina

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oh but poll away if you'd like to :)


ETA you are trying to solve a problem....and keep getting hex 11 unchanging

I don't see that it tells you how to solve it at all...sometimes its like Yi is sort of looking over the top of your head whilst you are talking to it, looking elsewhere
 

hilary

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I'd be interested in the 'collected experiences with unchanging hexagrams' thread. Somehow I suspect the mystery will survive our best efforts ;)
 

arabella

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Archive of Experience on Unchanging Hexagrams

I'd be interested in the 'collected experiences with unchanging hexagrams' thread. Somehow I suspect the mystery will survive our best efforts ;)

Yes, this is what I'm saying. I don't know that we will "spear" the truth of my present dilemma -- it's going to take whatever it takes to become clear and somewhere along the line the lightbulbs will come on.

But knowing that I've spent loads of time reading and absorbing Rosada's Memorising the I Ching threads and really benefiting, I'm suggesting that we do the same thing, one hexagram at a time, for unchanging hexagrams. Just begin with Hexagram 1 and create an archival reference with everyone's contributions on casting unchanging hexagrams.
 

dragona

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Hello, had the same thing myself lately and now they are coming more frequently...I think it started with hex 16, perhaps 3 weeks ago with 29, 9, 55, 27 and 13 yesterday...for different themes and for concrete and more general questions.
I always had the idea that unchanged hex is pointing the finger kind of a thing - underlining the essence of the question asked. And I just need to understand the essence of the hexagram better.
Or the right branch coming from it that the Yi is pointing with.
(I have to say I did not understand trojan`s no 3, probably my English.)
So I would like to know how it is going with the thread also.:bows:
 

meng

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Maybe it's just my thick head but I don't see any special significance between how many lines, if any, a reading gives, other than the continuation of thoughts.

It can say: "It's going to rain." (no lines)

Or, it may say, "It's going to rain----the monsoon winds aren't too severe down south in the two gulfs at present, but that could change overnight, there's no predicting this outcome just yet. Just sit tight for now. Maybe dance and pray for ample rain; all living things could use a good drink. Careful not to drown.

changing to, let's say: 29.

How does that relate to you or I on a *local experiential level? That's what typically concerns our questions.

*Derived from Chris Lofting
 

Trojina

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(I have to say I did not understand trojan`s no 3, probably my English.)
So I would like to know how it is going with the thread also.:bows:

If you read some way down this blog post Hilary explains her idea of having 'nowhere to stand' in relation to the question. here http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2010/03/17/unchanging-hexagrams-and-patterns-of-change/

And heres another one http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2006/04/08/unchanging-hexagram/

If you type 'unchanging hexagrams' into her Blog 'search' quite a few blog entries on the topic come up. Hilarys past blog posts may be quite an under used resource


BTW I often don't understand your english as much as you don't understand mine. What does your second sentence "so I would like to know how it is going with the thread also' mean ? Which thread ? How whats going ?
 
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dragona

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Maybe it's just my thick head but I don't see any special significance between how many lines, if any, a reading gives, other than the continuation of thoughts.

It can say: "It's going to rain." (no lines)

Or, it may say, "It's going to rain----the monsoon winds aren't too severe down south in the two gulfs at present, but that could change overnight, there's no predicting this outcome just yet. Just sit tight for now. Maybe dance and pray for ample rain; all living things could use a good drink. Careful not to drown.

changing to, let's say: 29.

How does that relate to you or I on a *local experiential level? That's what typically concerns our questions.

*Derived from Chris Lofting

Well, I often make the mistake of having an general idea of a hexagram (that may be wrong) and jump straight ahead to the moving lines. They seem to be the most helpful, since often give an advice on action or pin point the meaning of the answer more.
But as in many cases, answer depends on the question.
Funny thing about rain, I casted hex 9 UN and it seemed that the Yi was talking about the actual weather also, or maybe only, since it just finally rained, but only from the clouds in the sky.:rolleyes:
 
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dragona

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Thanks for the links, will check, of course
BTW I often don't understand your english as much as you don't understand mine. What does your second sentence "so I would like to know how it is going with the thread also' mean ? Which thread ? How whats going ?

It is hard for me to make much sense lately, more so in English, since my mind is not very calm and I am in general distress, so I would like to apologize to you and everybody who may have had problems with understanding my words lately.
I was referring to Arabella`s threads on unchanged hexagrams we mentioned ones as sticky deserving. I hope she reads this (as being her thread originally) and continue with the effort soon.
But I do try, you know, just not sure I understood that one part correctly.
 

Trojina

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No need to apologise I often sit for some time wondering what people mean in their posts...even native english speakers. Mostly I live with the mystery. :D


Yes it would be good to have all of Arabellas threads about the unchanging hexagrams as a sticky......one day.
 

dragona

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....what am sayin is that my current state of mind is not in an divinatorial kind of a shape...:footinmouth:
all hexes not yet covered, so perhaps now, in a new inspirational environment...:flirt:
 

meng

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Well, I often make the mistake of having an general idea of a hexagram (that may be wrong) and jump straight ahead to the moving lines. They seem to be the most helpful, since often give an advice on action or pin point the meaning of the answer more.
But as in many cases, answer depends on the question.
Funny thing about rain, I casted hex 9 UN and it seemed that the Yi was talking about the actual weather also, or maybe only, since it just finally rained, but only from the clouds in the sky.:rolleyes:

I think that's a common tendency. Ok, this will be about THIS. Now, tell me specifically what I need to do! Man, I hate that idea of asking to be told what to do. That's generally not a role for anything nor anyone but the subject in question to reckon with, to decide what's best. Never have I believed it was Yi's role to tell me what to do. I don't believe a teacher, master or oracle functions that way. Yi may say, here are the characters in your picture or story. Which will you choose to play?
 

meng

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An observed wave behaves differently.

Was just thinking how Don Juan taught Carlos what it meant to see. He said never look at the object directly. You must see it without looking at it.
 

dragona

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Wouldn`t that mean to use your intuition, basically?
 

meng

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Wouldn`t that mean to use your intuition, basically?

It could. But intuition is one of those words that is used without much thought as to what the word really implies. Spiritual is another one of those words. Wisdom is another.

I prefer the word cognition because the meaning employs both the logical and the (truly) intuitive: "The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning" which is what we put our brain through when we contemplate Yi's answers, or should. WordWeb calls it perception rather than intuition. It amounts to left and right brain processing and a functionary frontal lobe. It's allegedly what separates humans from other animals. It could explain why other animals have developed senses beyond our own. A typical dog smells 40 times more than humans can. But their cognitive skills are greatly limited, except for Brian and other cartoon characters.
 

dragona

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cognition --> recognition, intuition as an clear insight, allowed to shine through? sometimes it needs a tool, a trigger, like an IC or even better if it is more simple one, less ancient chinese writings used :p ?

but on the theme of unchanged hexagram casting, it still feels more static like to me, perhaps because we are coming from the hex 2 position to enquire in the first place, and it confirms our understanding of the situation or a projection...well, until we come from a different point of a wiew.
 

meng

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cognition --> recognition, intuition as an clear insight, allowed to shine through? sometimes it needs a tool, a trigger, like an IC or even better if it is more simple one, less ancient chinese writings used :p ?

but on the theme of unchanged hexagram casting, it still feels more static like to me, perhaps because we are coming from the hex 2 position to enquire in the first place, and it confirms our understanding of the situation or a projection...well, until we come from a different point of a wiew.

Re-cognition is what we have to do if our instant cognition doesn't reach out and grab the meaning, as in catching a bird in a net (h30 - illumination). Not an "Ah Ha!" but an "Oh, yeah!" But seriously, I love the idea of re-cognition for going back over the details of a reading, doing detective work, reconstructing, recognizing. But in ones own practical use of the oracle, I don't think it's wrong or unusual for someone to have an instant understanding, just by the hexagram... doesn't have to be the name of it, or its number, so it's not about getting hung up on those things, but about what that "static" (or any other) hexagram is saying. How many times have you seen, oh it such and such hexagram, and close the book or page, the matter settled in your mind?

Is a halo static? Is anything ever completed? I am still in meditation, but as soon as I think of it I know it too is finite. The moon is static; as far as we know, there's no life on it. However, the role it plays is part of the earth's dynamic changes. Things would be very different if earth had no moon, full and static. I don't think anything is static. Not even a rock.

And for fun, I'll pull string theory into this. Though no one has ever seen a string, it is mathematically proven to exist. It is generally rendered as a circular, vibrating subatomic energy substance, simultaneously existing on multiple spacetime dimensions. How many depends on which of three theories you subscribe to. But my point is, one single circular string is not static.

lens11774711_1277507235string-theory-simplified-
 

dragona

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Hmmm,you have the idea of analyzing and researching, while I was thinking of recognizing immediately, as you said, "someone to have an instant understanding, just by the hexagram" of the situation. For instance, I had 9UN for asking what hapens after doing X and waiting for the reaction made a perfect sense, no matter what one wants to get. Sometimes is just easier then other, what we need to extract from the reading, does not always have to be extra "heavy" stuff, just aproppriate,I think.

Btw, string is a line and a line starts with the dot, many dots added together create a line.
And a dot is/starts from an impulse. How static is an impulse:rolleyes:
 

meng

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Hmmm,you have the idea of analyzing and researching, while I was thinking of recognizing immediately, as you said, "someone to have an instant understanding, just by the hexagram" of the situation. For instance, I had 9UN for asking what hapens after doing X and waiting for the reaction made a perfect sense, no matter what one wants to get. Sometimes is just easier then other, what we need to extract from the reading, does not always have to be extra "heavy" stuff, just aproppriate,I think.

Btw, string is a line and a line starts with the dot, many dots added together create a line.
And a dot is/starts from an impulse. How static is an impulse:rolleyes:

I'm mainly playing with ideas and words, not placing undo emphasis on heaviness or depth, though my youngest son absolutely agrees with you, lol.

My word play wasn't grammatically correct and my explanations are a bit fuzzy, lots fuzzier to some than others. But we is who we is, right? :)

The words in question are cognitive and recognize. I was suggesting that cognitive, which consists of logic and something we can't quite explain, is the instantaneous understanding.

Then I played with "re-cognize", re meaning going back to the beginning and restructuring. This happens on a subtle level, but the 'oh ha!' happens at once, and is then incorrectly labeled as instant intuition.

So really, I'm just having fun with it. I like 're-cognize', but the 're' means going backward and reconstructing the meaning, rather than the instant understanding. But again, what seems instant doesn't prove there is no (new) cognitive process happening. Time is not a limitation, nor is distance, where true intuition occurs. Which returns to my issue with too easily or loosely using certain words, unless it offers the kernel without the chaff. Or else it's like frozen reconstructed orange juice. :p
 
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dragona

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Then I played with "re-cognize", re meaning going back to the beginning and restructuring. This happens on a subtle level, but the 'oh ha!' happens at once, and is then incorrectly labeled as instant intuition.

So really, I'm just having fun with it.
I know, I like to put something out there, just to see what happens. And I think better by discussing. But I am in a lousy shape lately, just you go on:)
 

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