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The lines of the hexagrams, being either yin or yang, can be looked at as having female or male qualities. Also, the trigrams, since they are assigned different members of the family, can also be looked at as male or female.

Was this an original idea? I know that the concepts of yin and yang in regards to the Yi was something that followed the original core meanings.

I was looking at these three hexagrams:

2 K'un, The Receptive



24 Fu, The Return



23 Po, Stripping Away



I am just starting to formulate some ideas. For instance, you have 2, completely receptive, an empty space, and 24 has one yang line comes in from the bottom, the situation's energy becomes one of movement. I am just thinking through typing so bare with me. Thunder from below, the oldest son. And then in 23, the youngest son, Mountain, it is leaving the hexagram to become 2 again. Stripping away the yang to become completely open and a new start for being receptive.

Ok, so I am being a little redundant and I think just talking about things that are obvious. There are so many ways to look at a hexagram, and I am dwelling on one of them at the moment. I really just wanted to know if the female and male aspects of the lines where an original concept.

Regardless I will still consider this angle of looking at a reading, but for curiousities sake, do you think that if the ancients received 24, they would have considered that a male force or energy was returning amongst the other things it could represent? .... Like, say, the dawn, or returning from illness etc.
 

bradford

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The lines of the hexagrams, being either yin or yang, can be looked at as having female or male qualities. Also, the trigrams, since they are assigned different members of the family, can also be looked at as male or female.

Like yin and yang, gender for the six line places was not an original idea, but came along many centuries after the Zhouyi. It does appear, though, that the Bagua had family genders early on. Although some subscribe to the idea that the Bagua came later, I think that idea is just another academic fad.
 

tuckchang

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For your reference

Yang and Yin are two phenomena presented by heaven, i.e. brightness and darkness, respectively. While referring to the substance on earth, they are largeness and smallness, rigidity and softness, the male and the female, etc. While further referring this concept, i.e. two (comparative) ends of one subject, they can be move and stillness, good and bad, strength and weakness, ……… .

According to the sequence of Zhou Yi, the first hexagram, Chien, is constituted by all solid lines, which defines its leader position; therefore the solid line of Chien is used to represent Yang and the broken lines, Yin. Also for information, Hex 2 usually refers to the character of submissiveness like earth sustaining heaven.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 
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Like yin and yang, gender for the six line places was not an original idea, but came along many centuries after the Zhouyi. It does appear, though, that the Bagua had family genders early on. Although some subscribe to the idea that the Bagua came later, I think that idea is just another academic fad.

Ok, I was wondering. Thanks Bradford.
When I am doing a reading, I wonder sometimes how far to pull out from various ways of looking at it. I do think it is good to boil it down to the original way and not frill it up by say, looking at the Name meaning only. But sometimes it seems that it needs adaptation to modern society. Like associating 57 with the internet. There is a lot of play in how a reading can be seen. I like this aspect, but I have a very creative mind that is prone to wander off track. 57 is great to look at as a man poking around with a stick at a cave entrance too. With the gender association, sometimes I feel it is appropriate to apply to the reading. But often times not. Sometimes I will find a yang line is pointing to a strong female. Or I will not even think about gender at all. For my mind, I just needed to know how close to the Oracle Bones gender association was. So thanks very much for the response.
 

Sparhawk

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With the gender association, sometimes I feel it is appropriate to apply to the reading. But often times not. Sometimes I will find a yang line is pointing to a strong female. Or I will not even think about gender at all. For my mind, I just needed to know how close to the Oracle Bones gender association was. So thanks very much for the response.

As far as recorded history goes, most of the received associations are modern in comparison to the antiquity of the Zhouyi. If you bring OBI to the discussion the associations disappear, for the most part. OB divination was based on the interpretation of the direction of the cracks formed on the scapulae/plastrons after high heat was applied to them (the process itself was long and complicated). Bǔ ( ), the Chinese character for divination, is an accurate depiction of a typical bone crack. Dualistic thought has been part of the human psyche pretty much forever. They can even be found in ancient cave paintings and the depiction of the hunter/prey duo, for example. It doesn't mean that complex philosophies were elaborated based on them at such an early age but they were noticed, nevertheless. I'll argue that directionality, as shown in the interpretation of OB cracks, is a brilliant example of dualistic thought applied to divination. In the case of the Zhouyi, other associations would come later, after the development of symbols such as trigrams and hexagrams, sometime during the early Zhou dynasty (even though markings similar to trigrams and hexagrams appear in OBI they are interpreted as primitive numerals). No one knows exactly when the received symbols were conceived and attached to the Zhouyi but it is my belief that they are not as ancient as we would desire them to be, even though divination in China is much older than them. The good news is that they (trigrams, specially) do lend themselves as perfect skeletons to be fleshed out with all kinds of dualistic associations, of which gender is but one of them.
 
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Sparhawk, thank you for your information as usual. What is OBI? Oracle Bone Interpretation? Before I can understand better what you have said, I need to know this.

I did not know that anything was associated with a "depiction of a typical bone crack." or "interpretation of the direction of the cracks formed on the scapulae/plastrons after high heat was applied to them". This is wonderful and curious news to me. I have up to this point only associated OB with, what was written on oracle bones, not the structure of the bones themselves and the cracks. Do you have a source I could research to make this information clearer to me?

Dualistic thought has been part of the human psyche pretty much forever. They can even be found in ancient cave paintings and the depiction of the hunter/prey duo, for example. It doesn't mean that complex philosophies were elaborated based on them at such an early age but they were noticed, nevertheless.
Are you saying that during the time of the OB, they did not take note of gender as specifically being a part of each and every aspect of a reading, yet it could possible come up here and there, despite them realizing a separation of energies, male and female, that wasn't a topic that occured at every reading, but perhaps some randomly?

The intent is important to me for understanding.

The good news is that they (trigrams, specially) do lend themselves as perfect skeletons to be fleshed out with all kinds of dualistic associations, of which gender is but one of them.
Therein lies the beauty.
 

bradford

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Our tendency to oversimplify things in archaeology and anthropology, like our black--and-white fallacies, has people jumping to conclusions way too much. In Yixue, while there is plenty of indication that the authors perceived the bagua within the gua and had at least rudimentary associations for them, this doesn't mean they emerged fully fleshed out. With regard to the sexes, cases can be made for sexual identity in some gua, the Mare in Gua 02, for instance, or Dui as little sister in a couple of Hexagrams, this doesn't mean they were anywhere near as fully developed as we know them today. The Zhouyi plays a lot with opposites, decrease and increase, for instance. But this doesn't mean it is based on some early concept of Yin and Yang. And they certainly didn't get into dividing the whole world into two camps, where male = rigid = good = light and female is all the opposite of that.
 
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OB, like a sprout, growing to a tree. Who would know what the branches look like.



Later, there is a tree. From the sprout.
 

Sparhawk

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What is OBI? Oracle Bone Interpretation?

Oracle Bone Inscription/s.


I did not know that anything was associated with a "depiction of a typical bone crack." or "interpretation of the direction of the cracks formed on the scapulae/plastrons after high heat was applied to them". This is wonderful and curious news to me. I have up to this point only associated OB with, what was written on oracle bones, not the structure of the bones themselves and the cracks. Do you have a source I could research to make this information clearer to me?

I just created an example that should clarify what's what.

As for sources, that's an active research topic.


Are you saying that during the time of the OB, they did not take note of gender as specifically being a part of each and every aspect of a reading, yet it could possible come up here and there, despite them realizing a separation of energies, male and female, that wasn't a topic that occured at every reading, but perhaps some randomly?

The cracking of bones for divination was mainly directed to the ancestors of the consultants. It was a highly ritualized practice and part of the religious beliefs of the Shang people. The consultations were very practical and related mostly to important but mundane and quotidian affairs (weather, harvests, hunting, royal issues, etc). Those quotidian affairs did not include the "matters of the heart" so prevalent today. Furthermore, if we go by what's recorded in the OBI, it appears that human gender was not an issue of consideration or important in the interpretation of readings.

Bradford said:
Our tendency to oversimplify things in archaeology and anthropology, like our black--and-white fallacies, has people jumping to conclusions way too much. In Yixue, while there is plenty of indication that the authors perceived the bagua within the gua and had at least rudimentary associations for them, this doesn't mean they emerged fully fleshed out. With regard to the sexes, cases can be made for sexual identity in some gua, the Mare in Gua 02, for instance, or Dui as little sister in a couple of Hexagrams, this doesn't mean they were anywhere near as fully developed as we know them today. The Zhouyi plays a lot with opposites, decrease and increase, for instance. But this doesn't mean it is based on some early concept of Yin and Yang. And they certainly didn't get into dividing the whole world into two camps, where male = rigid = good = light and female is all the opposite of that.

I'd like to clarify that I'm focusing on Shang divination as I interpret that to be the drive behind the question posed in the thread and how it links to the later Zhouyi and I am careful to separate them both as discreet but similar in purpose methods of divination. That the Zhouyi, and the Yijing later, developed whole systems around the received gua, there's no question. No arguments either in what developed when in regards to Yin/Yang, as known today. Dualistic thought ('plays with opposites') does appear to be at least as old at recorded human thought, but, as you've said, the separation of camps wasn't the primary purpose of those plays but rather how the ebb and flow of those tendencies fitted together in a given context.
 
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The cracking of bones for divination was mainly directed to the ancestors of the consultants. It was a highly ritualized practice and part of the religious beliefs of the Shang people. The consultations were very practical and related mostly to important but mundane and quotidian affairs (weather, harvests, hunting, royal issues, etc). Those quotidian affairs did not include the "matters of the heart" so prevalent today. Furthermore, if we go by what's recorded in the OBI, it appears that human gender was not an issue of consideration or important in the interpretation of readings.

Thanks, this is so helpful.
 

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Hi, Courtney:

Sex (LOVE) is maybe the first paradigm of dialectic oppositions: a well know model, deep rooted in experience, to which any other true or apparent opposition can be related for getting «logical» consequences.

That’s why many oppositions are often seen as «marriage».

As an illustration, the beginning of the 10th. Wing about which Joseph de Prèmare…

… said the last Wing was ‘the most profound of all the commentaries included in Yijing’
Rutt, page 453.


Beginign of the 10th. Wing

雜卦
Za Gua
MIXED (DIVINATORY) SIGNS



《乾》剛《坤》柔。
Strength in Qian, weakness in Kun we find. [Legge]
THE CREATIVE is strong. THE RECEPTIVE is yielding [Wilhelm/Baynes].
Quian (1) is firm. Kun (2) can be displaced[Rutt].
SUN IS FIRM. EARTH IS FLEXIBLE [Charly].
Phallus is firm. Womb is flexible.

《比》樂《師》憂。
Bi shows us joy, and Shi the anxious mind. [Legge]
HOLDING TOGETHER is something joyous. THE ARMY means mourning. [Wilhelm/Baynes].
Bi (8) is happy. Shi (7) is long-faced.[Rutt]
FRIENDS JOYFUL. SOLDIERS NEEDY. [Charly]
Mating happy, fighting worrying.


Literal meanings:

乾 Qián: one of the Eight Trigrams 八卦, symbolizing heaven / male principle /
乾 Gān: dry / drought / clean / in vain / dried food / foster / adoptive / to ignore [幹 Gān: the trunk ( of a tree or of a human body ) / the main part of anything / capabilities / talents / capable / skillful / to do / to attend to business / to manage / ( slang ) to kill / {slang} to f_ck/
剛 gang: hard / firm / strong / just / barely /
坤 kūn: one of the Eight Trigrams 八卦, symbolizing earth / female principle /
柔 róu: soft / flexible / supple / yielding / submissive /

比 Bǐ: to compare / to contrast / to gesture (with hands)
比 bì: to associate with / to be near / [partners, friends (Ch.)] /
→ 屄 bī: vulva, pussy, c_nt /
樂 lè: happy / laugh / cheerful / joyful /
樂 yuè: music
師 shī: teacher / master / expert / model / army division / (old) troops / to dispatch troops
憂 yōu: to worry / to concern oneself with / worried / anxiety / sorrow / inconvenienced by being orphaned / [needy (Ch.)] /


All the best,


Charly
 
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Sex (LOVE) is maybe the first paradigm of dialectic oppositions: a well know model, deep rooted in experience, to which any other true or apparent opposition can be related for getting «logical» consequences.

That’s why many oppositions are often seen as «marriage».

This dance of opposites, it is.. well.. everything.
乾坤


Thanks for the info Charly! I attached a picture for you below!
Take care.
 

bradford

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Hi, Courtney:

Sex (LOVE) is maybe the first paradigm of dialectic oppositions:

Charly

Is maybe not. That would be darkness and light. Or maybe at the same time that happened there was:
Squeezed so tight my head changes shape vs. I'm outta here.
 
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charly

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Light and dark constantly copulating and simultaneously separating. Always dancing.
Like it!

H.11 泰tai4, PEACE for Wilhelm/Baynes but more literal GREAT / GREATNESS is about the marriage of Heaven and Earth, it said:

... HEAVEN (AND) EARTH MARRIED AND (THE) MYRIAD THINGS WENT THROUGH (IT) !

It belongs to the underlined sequence of the following quote:

H.14
彖曰‧泰‧
小往大來吉亨‧
則是天地交而萬物通也
上下交而其志同也‧
內陽而外陰‧
內健而外順‧
內君子而外小人‧
君子道長‧小人道消也‧
The little come and the great gone in Tài, and its indication that there will be good fortune with progress and success' show to us heaven and earth in communication with each other, and all things in consequence having free course, and (also) the high and the low, (superiors and inferiors), in communication with one another, and possessed by the same aim. The inner (trigram) is made up of the strong and undivided lines, and the outer of the weak and divided; the inner is (the symbol of) strength, and the outer of docility; the inner (represents) the superior man, and the outer the small man. (Thus) the way of the superior man appears increasing, and that of the small man decreasing.
[LEGGE]

SOURCE: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/yijing11.php

jiao1 is the character that Legge euphemistically translated «in communication with each other». It means plainly SEXUAL INTERCOURSE / TO F_CK.

jiao1 appears later in the quote HIGH (AND) LOW (ARE) MARRIED AND ITS AIMS (ARE THE) SAME.

Heaven and Earth, High and Low, among other opositions follow the same way, THEY COPULATE.

Heaven and Earth behave like HUSBAND and WIFE and they got many offsprings, the myriad things. They become FATHER and MOTHER. And all the living beings came through the same way, of course, forgetting asexual reproduction.

(To be continued)

all the best,


Charly
 
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charly

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Is maybe not. That would be darkness and light. Or maybe at the same time that happened there was:
Squeezed so tight my head changes shape vs. I'm outta here.
Hi, Brad:

Of course, maybe not. But it is said in the Changes that all originates from the interchange of Heaven and Earth and it's easy to associate it with worship of sun and earth, sacred marriage and the like.

JIAO is found in the Zhouyi fourth times: 14.1 / 14.5 / 17.1 / 38.4. I believe that I havn't missed any. All the times can be translated in a sexual key:

14.1: it advices not to marry with toxic people.
Be for girls or for boys.

14.5: it's about the luck of having a f_cking and mighty «captive».
Be for girls or for boys.

17.1: it's abut the merit (or results) of having consented relations.
Be for girls or for boys.

38.4: it's about the first love, dangerous but no wrong.
Be for girls or for boys.

I believe that also the commentaries often accept the sexual key


all the best,


Charly
 

bradford

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o sha li - yu so yong, so wei tu yong. yu wei tu fu ni tu.
 

charly

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What does this translate to? I tried to translate online and it just isn't working out. Anyone want to curb my curiousity?
Hi, Courtney:

I believe that´s ony a joke. Maybe Brad thinks that interest in love affairs is proper of people lacking of maturity, say, young hearted people. But I´m trying to be serious and mature.

I don´t know if I get it. Sometimes I distrust of my own intentions.

Maybe Brad can put the sequence in chinese characters.


All the best,

Charly
 

bradford

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o sha li - yu so yong, so wei tu yong. yu wei tu fu ni tu.

Oh, Charly. You're so young. So way-too-young. You're way too funny too.

Payback for once saying I was too old.
 

charly

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...
Payback for once saying I was too old.
Hi, Brad:

I´m afraid that I was. Nothing personal, of course.

Yours,


Charly

P.D.:
1201267225_f.jpg

Frederik Frankenstein ... beginig to create his own monster.
From: http://angelgriss.blogspot.com/2010/12/young-frankenstein.html
Ch.
 
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Hi, Courtney:

I believe that´s ony a joke. Maybe Brad thinks that interest in love affairs is proper of people lacking of maturity, say, young hearted people. But I´m trying to be serious and mature.

I don´t know if I get it. Sometimes I distrust of my own intentions.

Maybe Brad can put the sequence in chinese characters.


All the best,

Charly

You have a nitch Charly
 

charly

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You have a nitch Charly
What´s a NITCH, Courtney?:confused:

... in the Progress Theater on May 15, 1897, .. in a memorable encounter between the minstrels Gabino Ezeiza and Pablo Vazquez, someone in the audience ... proposed the theme of "metempsychosis".
Gabino, upon receiving the order, made a long prelude on his guitar, as if trying to guess what "hell" the word meant.
... and said:

Al que me mete en psicosis...
Al que me mete en psicosis
le digo en estilo vario...
por qué al mandarme el temita
no me mandó el diccionario.​

Source: http://mosaicosportenos.blogspot.com/2011/05/acerca-de-la-metempsicosis-y-gabino.html

Translation with the help of Google:

To whom gets me into psychosis ...
To whom gets me into psychosis,
I say him is various style,
why when he sent me the theme
he didn´t send me the dictionary.

... horrible, but, I hope, understandable.


Yours,

Charly
 
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What´s a NITCH, Courtney?:confused:




Yours,

Charly

There are a few different meanings to the word 'nitch', but here is the one I was thinking of:
'Sending you the dictionary' from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niche:

Niche: A situation or activity specially suited to a person's
interests, abilities, or nature.
Example: found her niche in life.​

Sending my personal intent: to highlight that you seem to have a positive interest in the subject of love and sex and things of that nature.

As for the underlined.... :cool: I do not know....
Hi, Courtney:

I believe that´s ony a joke. Maybe Brad thinks that interest in love affairs is proper of people lacking of maturity, say, young hearted people. But I´m trying to be serious and mature.

I don´t know if I get it. Sometimes I distrust of my own intentions.

Maybe Brad can put the sequence in chinese characters.


All the best,

Charly

Take care,
AQ
 

charly

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There are a few different meanings to the word 'nitch', but here is the one I was thinking of:
'Sending you the dictionary' from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niche:

Niche: A situation or activity specially suited to a person's
interests, abilities, or nature.
Example: found her niche in life.​

Sending my personal intent: to highlight that you seem to have a positive interest in the subject of love and sex and things of that nature.

As for the underlined.... :cool: I do not know....


Take care,
AQ
Oh!

I have a nitch, only that I didn't know that I had it.

Of course, I'm not the only. The Changes sometimes has the same nitch. Not my invention.

Yours,


Charly
 

charly

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jiao1 is the character that Legge euphemistically translated «in communication with each other». It means plainly SEXUAL INTERCOURSE / TO F_CK.

jiao1 appears later in the quote HIGH (AND) LOW (ARE) MARRIED AND ITS AIMS (ARE THE) SAME.

... (To be continued)
(Continuation)

上下交而其志同也‧
HIGH [AND] LOW MARRY AND ITS AIMS [ARE THE] SAME. YEAH! (1)
Both looking for the same «thing».

內陽而外陰‧
INNER SUNNY AND OUTER CLOUDY.
(Of course, the later YANG / YIN)

內健而外順‧
INNER STRONG (VIGOROUS) AND OUTER SUBMISSIVE.


內君子而外小人‧
INNER NOBLE-YOUNG AND OUTER LITTLE-PEOPLE


君子道長‧
小人道消也

NOBLE-YOUNG WAY [IS] LONG.
LITTLE-PEOPLE WAY [IS] NEEDY.

The upper translation belongs to H.11 TUAN, a commentary, not the Zhouyi. I find some incongruence comparing the first clause with the following. The first is more compliant with the sense of H.11 PEACE / GREATNESS, the following more compliant with later confucian ideology.

For comparison, the 1st. line of H.14:

14.1:

In the first NINE, undivided, there is no approach to what is injurious, and there is no error. Let there be a realisation of the difficulty (and danger of the position), and there will be no error (to the end).
LEGGE

wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiao1: to deliver / to turn over // to make friends / to have sexual intercourse / to mix / to join // to cross / to intersect (lines) /
hai4: to do harm to / to cause trouble to / harm / evil / calamity /
fei3: bandit / evildoer /
jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake

jian1: difficult / hard / hardship /
ze2: (expresses contrast with a previous sentence or clause) / standard / norm / rule / to imitate / to follow / then / principle /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiu4: wrong / blame / to blame / mistake /


无交害匪咎
DO NOT MARRY HARMFUL BANDITS [WHICH SHOULD BE] WRONG.
Don't mix with toxic people.
Don't commit the mistake of joining with somebody that's hurting you, that's not love.

艱則无咎
HARD BUT NO WRONG.
Difficult although correct.


Do you see the difference?

Yours,

Charly
_______________________
(1) I use to MARRY a an euphemism for JIAO, another options can be to JOIN, to MIX, to INTERCHANGE, to DO IT,
 
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Is the TUAN the same as the TEN WINGS? ... and is that the same as the DAZHUAN and the GREAT COMMENTARY?
 

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