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Fate vs. Chance

newmoon

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The Yi references to fate. Is it fate as in Destiny (per-determined) or is it fate through chance?
 

Sparhawk

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Fate: the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do : destiny


Hmmm, no. Not in that sense. IMO, the Yi can show you the natural tendencies and pathways by which events come to happen, yes. However, the Yi refers to the kind of fate that's malleable, directed, non-deterministic. Consulting the Yijing isn't a passive affair of happiness or despair, post readings. It is an opportunity to navigate toward your goals.
 

newmoon

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Wihelm uses the word "fate" in his translation. When he uses the word "fate", it seems like he is saying something that is predetermined. Already decided. Any ideas why he uses the word "fate" in his translations?
 

Sparhawk

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Wilhelm/Baynes uses the word "fate" 23 times in his translated "work," and all in his commentaries to the actual text of the hexagrams. It does not appear as a concept in the bare Chinese text of the Zhouyi. Remember that in his commentaries he's interpreting the text in broad terms and tries to name a concept that would look familiar, first to himself and then to us, his readers in the West. If you care to look for those instances you will notice that, in general, he's not trying to tell the reader that "fate" is immutable (even though he seems to consider 12 the one exception that makes my rule). Look for the word in 15 and 18, for example. In any case, I consider his a poor choice of a word to describe "tendencies towards future events".
 

newmoon

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I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.
 
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This is all good to think about. Sparks of curiousity are flying! The question really is here, How much do my actions affect my future? I think like Sparhawk said in the case of the Yijing, fate is malleable. Yi will tell you the nature of an action in general. It will say, with these conditions, if you CHOOSE to act this way, this will naturally follow. It indicates the nature of change in the universe, but does not indicate if you will personally follow them.

There can be a seperate question based on your very own beliefs of how the universe works. Then it becomes pretty personal. Do you feel there is a "higher intelligence" that controls? This question is more broadly based and the answer is all up to you :).
 

Sparhawk

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:D I'm sure you are aware, at least I hope you do, that the kind of answer you are looking for will not be found in this or any other forum. Mind you, you will receive a lot more opinions than you ever expected but no "answers". Those reside within.

Now,

I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.

That definition of "fate" came from the Merriam-Webster. Nothing better than a standard definition of a term to start a discussion that can end up fuzzy.

Not to repeat myself (short on time lately...) I will leave you with a thread I started almost two of years ago that will explain a little where I stand on this.
I do not pretend to be correct but it is what makes sense to me. Those that have access to the Reading Circle can look for an even older thread I started called "Haphazardness and Consequences".
 

meng

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I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.

Opinions and theories, yes, some reenforced with sound logic and even some with hard evidence. But I'm leery of any source which is absolutely certain of 'how it is.' Since you're interested in the teeny tiny quantum world, you may have noticed that those on the cutting edge of this relatively new science have little to offer but a blank stare into space when asked to explain consciousness, and the answers they are more confident in providing seem to be more as spoken by a small child pointing to elephant shaped clouds passing by than by a Newtonian scholar, and by now, even the classic scientific minds must resist the urge to spout with certainty the traditional explanation of gravity. It seems scientific certainty is increasingly being replaced with potentials, and potentials open the way to more solid facts and solutions, which open the way to more potentials.

I think, at least from a subjective level, it's safe to say that today, here where "I" am, it's unlikely that anything I think or do can change the weather, move these mountains, or turn the desert into a tropical island. Those are, as far as I yet know, fixed circumstances, my fate, which I have to work with. However, nothing says I can't change my subjective reality of this by hoping on a plane to Hawaii. I do have the ability to shape the destiny of my day in several ways. In a sense, I can change them even by how I think, and it is this ability that the IC, as an oracle, makes such a wonderful guide in shaping fate or destiny. Change how we think, and we do change our fate.

Now, I think the IC does put forth the idea that each of us does have a potential fate: a way of being and becoming our highest potential. However, that great potential may not always mean that we get to enjoy the benefits of being a lesser being, not living to our full potential. Some things need to be sacrificed, and some of those things may be things which we hold dearly to. It's really up to the individual to choose our path and its consequences, which one can say, seals our fate.
 

meng

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I noticed a typo in my last post:
nothing says I can't change my subjective reality of this by hoping on a plane to Hawaii
, hoping rather than hopping, but decided I like hoping better than hopping in this context. It also costs less. Now where did I store that beach chair?
 
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Sparhark/Luis, I read your take in 'Haphazardness and Consequences' and I like your cosmic cello idea, as well as non-vaccum readings. Also really enjoyed the quote about Ideas, Images and Words. Thanks for the link, it really makes ya think. :)

In all of the formulating and untangling I have going on about this topic, I might be listening to the same cosmic CD as you, but on a different track :D The above does ring true to me. Thing is, I think everything is like a string being plucked, it's vibrations affecting everything, the butterfly affect (you might too). As a metaphor to use, and because I think a lot about people's emotions, just in general I contemplate this aspect of life a lot. I think emotions really connect us and seperate us in this ebb and flow way depending on how much we share/hide. Just like how we are not in a vaccum with Yijing readings, we are not in a vaccum with anything else. When an emotion is experienced, it not only plucks a string within, but it sends vibrations out. The vibrations out are also the reason for the emotion in the first place. I guess you could say that emotions are chemical effects. These effects can be coming from a source inside, like the mind, or they can be from an outside environment, but it is always because of something else. It is the result of not being in a vaccum that we have emotions. The emotions are the expression of everything vibrating and bouncing off of everything. Emotions could also very well be, IMO, the connective tissue between people and experiences. I look at our time here as a time to follow my path, the best one I can, and in that time share my experience of my path with those I come in contact with. Of course not everyone, but to some. I find this sharing to be a big part of the experience of life since we are not in the vaccum. We are going to be effected by things outside of 'ourselves' (quotes for the illusion that we are seperate) regardless of communicating it or not. Sometimes, I do think it is very important, even crucial, that we keep things to ourselves. Sometimes that is the only way to truely understand things the way that would work best for the cosmos. But a lot of the time, IMO, it is crucial to share on the path. I suppose I do not mind being effected by other's opinions. I don't mind throwing my own out there either. Whether it be an emotion (just my little example), or a Yijing reading, I find on numerous occasions the need to share and discuss and learn and formulate ideas. Kind of like, "I never would have thought of that had you not pointed out your own experience". This quote works with either emotions or Yijing. There is a whole orchestra going on all of the time, not just one string (I know you know this :D). All of the different instruments, and their strings, can effect us. I guess my point is I am not seeing why it could be beneficial to cut myself off from this experience. Usually I go back and edit myself but I have to get somewhere else. Sorry this is so run-on like and probably the misuse of effect and affect. I always screw those up. (seems on subject tho!) ok bye
 
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Sparhark/Luis, I read your take in 'Haphazardness and Consequences' and I like your cosmic cello idea, as well as non-vaccum readings. Also really enjoyed the quote about Ideas, Images and Words. Thanks for the link, it really makes ya think. :)

In all of the formulating and untangling I have going on about this topic, I might be listening to the same cosmic CD as you, but on a different track :D The above does ring true to me. Thing is, I think everything is like a string being plucked, it's vibrations affecting everything, the butterfly affect (you might too). As a metaphor to use, and because I think a lot about people's emotions, just in general I contemplate this aspect of life a lot. I think emotions really connect us and seperate us in this ebb and flow way depending on how much we share/hide. Just like how we are not in a vaccum with Yijing readings, we are not in a vaccum with anything else. When an emotion is experienced, it not only plucks a string within, but it sends vibrations out. The vibrations out are also the reason for the emotion in the first place. I guess you could say that emotions are chemical effects. These effects can be coming from a source inside, like the mind, or they can be from an outside environment, but it is always because of something else. It is the result of not being in a vaccum that we have emotions. The emotions are the expression of everything vibrating and bouncing off of everything. Emotions could also very well be, IMO, the connective tissue between people and experiences. I look at our time here as a time to follow my path, the best one I can, and in that time share my experience of my path with those I come in contact with. Of course not everyone, but to some. I find this sharing to be a big part of the experience of life since we are not in the vaccum. We are going to be effected by things outside of 'ourselves' (quotes for the illusion that we are seperate) regardless of communicating it or not. Sometimes, I do think it is very important, even crucial, that we keep things to ourselves. Sometimes that is the only way to truely understand things the way that would work best for the cosmos. But a lot of the time, IMO, it is crucial to share on the path. I suppose I do not mind being effected by other's opinions. I don't mind throwing my own out there either. Whether it be an emotion (just my little example), or a Yijing reading, I find on numerous occasions the need to share and discuss and learn and formulate ideas. Kind of like, "I never would have thought of that had you not pointed out your own experience". This quote works with either emotions or Yijing. There is a whole orchestra going on all of the time, not just one string (I know you know this :D). All of the different instruments, and their strings, can effect us. I guess my point is I am not seeing why it could be beneficial to cut myself off from this experience. Usually I go back and edit myself but I have to get somewhere else. Sorry this is so run-on like and probably the misuse of effect and affect. I always screw those up. (seems on subject tho!) ok bye
 
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Hello Luis! I just found this in the other link you posted:

This is where we diverge. I do think we are constantly flooded by other's thoughts. Just cover your ears. Do you hear the natural ringing noise inside? (I hope you don't have a bad case of tinnitus or it would be harder to make my point...) I'm sure you do. However, how much attention do you pay to it unless you are reminded that is there or you happen to be in total silence and it manifest itself in your consciousness? I know it is a simplistic example but my point is that we are constantly surrounded by "white background noise." We just have learned to filter it all out to live with our own voice alone. We've done it so much and for so long that we have lost the "sense." It doesn't mean, however, that don't hear it. It means that we don't listen.

I agree though that not all thoughts carry the same weight and the vast majority of all thoughts are transient and devoid of any significant footprint. By the same token, I firmly believe that the kind of concentration and attitude required to pose a question to an oracle, the ritual behind it, the interpretation, etc., does accumulate and carry a very significant weight that projects away from the querent and connects him/her to the subject in a nonlocal way. The thing is, the more covert the effect, the more subtle and effective in pushing the subject. If the subject were ever aware of such a connection the action would stop because, as you've said, there would be a "compensatory and reciprocal response."
I think this covers a lot of the topics I was rambling on about.. The silence that you speak of does make a lot of sense. It is also far too easy to become dependent on other people for insight and forget that it is available within.

I would still say there is a balance with all of this. I am starting to figure out from your sprinkled posts, that you are an extreme purest. :)

Another belief that people have, I know this is random, is the state of nirvana. This belief almost describes to me the strings stopping. I am not saying I have landed at a decision on this, but I thought these things tied into this:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=14593 (posts up to post 14)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiTwqLddCgc the part where she says-
We were learning to make the world stand still
And it will, but until….”

This is just my Yo Yo Ma covering Bach.
 

newmoon

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This is from a reading I did a week or two ago. 19.2>24. Wilhelm refers to the "...Universal Law of Fate" in 19.2. So is he saying "change" is a universal law and therefore is fate?
 
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I would like to apologize for two things. One for derailing Newmoon's thread. My comments started getting way off of the track of things concerning fate and became more about sharing readings. Two, sorry for my posts being so confusing. I was at work on a break and quickly typed out my choppy thought process. I have a lot of sorting out to do in my head regarding all of the subjects presented through this thread. -AQ :blush:
 

newmoon

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Didn't bother me at all. I am happy you felt compelled to share.
 

Sparhawk

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This is from a reading I did a week or two ago. 19.2>24. Wilhelm refers to the "...Universal Law of Fate" in 19.2. So is he saying "change" is a universal law and therefore is fate?

Again, I believe the use of the word "fate" by Wilhem/Baynes is misleading at best. Think of it this way: today's date, Mar/20/2012, that is "fate", a bump, a stop. You had an important appointment today and that was your "fate". In the grand scheme, individual fate is nothing. Meaningful only to the one who's experiencing it. When someone dear dies, they've met their "fate" in a natural life course. For the rest of us, the pain of their absence will mark their departure in our timeline and we would have met "fate" for that day as we would have witnessed it. Fate happens every single instant in our lives. "Change," on the other hand, is the whole calendar, and in perpetuity... ;) Can you direct your own slice of Change? Absolutely. That's why divination was invented.
 

bradford

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Listen to this Sparhawk feller.

The word that is often translated Fate is 命 Ming. Don't take the translation of any Chinese words so seriously. It can also be translated:
higher law, highest law, higher order, higher purpose, calling, vocation, destiny, fate, lot in life, charge, fortune, oracle, life, life’s course, span of life, one’s place in history, livelihood, mission, mandate, charter, constitution, appointment, assignment, commission, order, pronouncement, directive, command, law, decree, priority, investiture, higher power, higher authority; heaven's will; name, denomination, designation, title; (to) name

Fate is a great translation for a person who has no control over their direction in life.
But the better meaning is taking direction from something larger, longer lasting or better than you are.
 

Sparhawk

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I am not saying I have landed at a decision on this, but I thought these things tied into this:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=14593 (posts up to post 14)

Nooo!! My eyes!! (pausing for 15 minutes while I wash my eyes and read the Wall Street Journal) A relationship question in the Shredded Readings Section!! NO!! :rofl:

I only dive into one of those threads if I happen to spot a couple of people contributing there and only because if they dive in them I consider there must be something worthwhile to read. Otherwise, I've severe allergies to that section. :D
 

Sparhawk

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I would like to apologize for two things. One for derailing Newmoon's thread. My comments started getting way off of the track of things concerning fate and became more about sharing readings. Two, sorry for my posts being so confusing. I was at work on a break and quickly typed out my choppy thought process. I have a lot of sorting out to do in my head regarding all of the subjects presented through this thread. -AQ :blush:

Oh, don't worry. Blabber mouth =====> ME :D
 

Sparhawk

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I think this covers a lot of the topics I was rambling on about.. The silence that you speak of does make a lot of sense. It is also far too easy to become dependent on other people for insight and forget that it is available within.

True. Aging may not be fun but I believe I was blessed with the opportunity to study a lot about the Yijing, for some two decades, sans the "distraction" of the Internet and so many diverging "expert opinions." Learning about the Yijing has become a very lazy and leisure affair and most people want "digested answers" and can't seem to stop for a moment and think for themselves.

I would still say there is a balance with all of this. I am starting to figure out from your sprinkled posts, that you are an extreme purest. :)

Uh? "Extreme purest"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :rofl:

I am starting a Yijing Church and I'm looking for priestesses... :D
 

newmoon

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"Learning about the Yijing has become a very lazy and leisure affair and most people want "digested answers" and can't seem to stop for a moment and think for themselves. "

I am guilty of wanting the answers without taking the time to think. I read a lot about the Tao, but I have a hard time reading the I Ching straight through.

Will Church be on Sundays?
 

Sparhawk

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I am guilty of wanting the answers without taking the time to think. I read a lot about the Tao, but I have a hard time reading the I Ching straight through.

Will Church be on Sundays?

No, we'll have services on Friday's the 13th and of those only in leap years, in a remote Caribbean island, to be named. :D
 

meng

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True. Aging may not be fun but I believe I was blessed with the opportunity to study a lot about the Yijing, for some two decades, sans the "distraction" of the Internet and so many diverging "expert opinions." Learning about the Yijing has become a very lazy and leisure affair and most people want "digested answers" and can't seem to stop for a moment and think for themselves.



Uh? "Extreme purest"? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :rofl:

I am starting a Yijing Church and I'm looking for priestesses... :D

Sans the internet discussions (IE here), I think the vast majority of hard copy IC users (not necessarily students) become Wilhelm addicts, IE, me :D. Once deeply rooted in Wilhelm only, it becomes a master/servant paradigm, from which develops a moral law rather than ethical conduct through thoughtful free will. That becomes synonymous with "I Ching" divination.

My early years were caught up in this cage, where questions were directed toward "what should I do," wanting to be told what the "Superior Man" would do - kind of akin to asking "what would Jesus do?" It really was similar to going to a well organized church, rather than engaging and stimulating ones own higher potential, with the help of an excellent teacher.

Though the many perspectives and opinions can at times be frustrating and confusing, and while some hold doggedly to their understanding as being "the" way, it's still better than being locked into the Wilhelm only way of obeying rather than thinking. I say this while having a tremendous respect for Wilhelm/Baynes, because there are treasures within that work, and like the King James Bible, it is poetic and most easily memorized. I've just learned to automatically edit what I read from it, so that I may retain what is valuable, without succumbing to a moral dogma.
 

Sparhawk

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Though the many perspectives and opinions can at times be frustrating and confusing, and while some hold doggedly to their understanding as being "the" way, it's still better than being locked into the Wilhelm only way of obeying rather than thinking. I say this while having a tremendous respect for Wilhelm/Baynes, because there are treasures within that work, and like the King James Bible, it is poetic and most easily memorized. I've just learned to automatically edit what I read from it, so that I may retain what is valuable, without succumbing to a moral dogma.

Well, I should share that my exculpatory claim on this is that I was a collector of Yi books and material well before the Web. As a matter of fact, when I moved to the U.S., back in 1986, I brought two pieces of luggage with me: my clothes in a suitcase and a backpack full of Yijing related books. Talk about crossing the great waters... :) I also have a deep respect for Wilhelm but didn't idolize the man (or at least I didn't idolize him for long... :D). I think that to approach this subject properly one has to be very critical of what one reads.

Mind you, I love the interaction the Web brings and I have met many dear friends in the process and learned a lot too, but I came to the arena with some solid understanding and opinions of what the Yijing means for me. Nowadays is like most feel the Web is supposed to download decades of study into their heads. Asking for an interpretation is NOT like querying Google...
 

meng

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I think new editions should come with Firewire adapters to just download everything that folks like you and Brad and LiSe and others have studied all these years. Of course it would require a little brain surgery but...

But even if that were possible, you couldn't download years of personal experience of actually applying all this stuff.
 

Sparhawk

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I think new editions should come with Firewire adapters to just download everything that folks like you and Brad and LiSe and others have studied all these years. Of course it would require a little brain surgery but...

But even if that were possible, you couldn't download years of personal experience of actually applying all this stuff.

My friend, you do NOT want to be privy to what's in my head. I scare and baffle myself, more often than not... :rofl:
 

meng

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To scare and baffle. Sounds like 51.1,2,4,6 - 4 :D
 

Sparhawk

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Pretty much! :D
 

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Everyone comes into this life with a big portion of fate. I am small and female, my fate is that I can never be a tall famous basketballplayer. :mad:
So not all roads are open, and some roads can not be avoided.

When an artist has all possibilities open, the chance that he will create something worthwhile is very small (or maybe zero). He needs obstructions, problems, challenges. I think he needs his fate in order to create. I think everyone needs challenges and trouble and whatnot, the whole s*** fate has put in your packpack, in order to create a worthwhile life. To me fate feels more like what you start from than where you end.
 

meng

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Everyone comes into this life with a big portion of fate. I am small and female, my fate is that I can never be a tall famous basketballplayer. :mad:
So not all roads are open, and some roads can not be avoided.

When an artist has all possibilities open, the chance that he will create something worthwhile is very small (or maybe zero). He needs obstructions, problems, challenges. I think he needs his fate in order to create. I think everyone needs challenges and trouble and whatnot, the whole s*** fate has put in your packpack, in order to create a worthwhile life. To me fate feels more like what you start from than where you end.

Yeah. My fate is to have a distinct preference for small and female over tall basketball players. Funny how fate works.

But seriously, I like your starting point point as being the immutable fate, and what you do with it as being art.
 

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