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50.1 Out of curiosity…

iams girl

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Is it known where the upside-down image of line 1 comes from?

I mean, being the bottom line, why not something just about legs or feet like “the legs of the ding are solid and true,” or “being grounded in mind, body, and spirit brings success,” or even "having nice legs covers a multitude of flaws :),” or something?
 
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pocossin

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Some feet and toes:

21.1 His feet are fastened in the stocks
22.1 He lends grace to his toes
30.1 The footprints run crisscross.
31.1 The influence shows itself in the big toe.
34.1 Power in the toes.
 

iams girl

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Yes, that's it, generally all on the ground! With such a lovely image of the ding, it seems a little unsettling to read the first line about it being overturned. Hence, wondering where "feet in air" idea might have come from? Maybe same category as "why" anything...but, thank you for thorough image list.
 

pocossin

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Y thank you for thorough image list.

Oh no. It's not thorough. I just quickly scanned for a few examples. Bradford has an excellent discussion of this topic in Volume II, pp. 25-7, "The Yao Wei or Line Positions.
 

heylise

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I like the upside-down. The Ding is quite impressive, that it is allwowed to turn it upside down is reassuring. Even a Ding can be cleaned without much fuss, even big respect-demanding things can be solved without too many ummm... cannotfindtheword

Even posts can be posted without too many cannotfindtheword
:)
 

tuckchang

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For your reference

To turn Ding upside down is for pouring out the stale food in order to accommodate new material.

When line 1 moves to position 4 and exchanges positions with line 4, the Ding is turned upside down.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 

Sparhawk

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Is it known where the upside-down image of line 1 comes from?

I mean, being the bottom line, why not something just about legs or feet like “the legs of the ding are solid and true,” or “being grounded in mind, body, and spirit brings success,” or even "having nice legs covers a multitude of flaws :),” or something?

You forgot the concubine in the line... :rofl:
 

charly

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Yes, that's it, generally all on the ground! With such a lovely image of the ding, it seems a little unsettling to read the first line about it being overturned. Hence, wondering where "feet in air" idea might have come from? Maybe same category as "why" anything...but, thank you for thorough image list.
Hi, Iams:

It looks improper for a SACRED BRONZE CAULDRON to be put with the TOES UP. Like for an icon to be kept with the head down.

I believe that it speaks of a SORCERY PRACTICE, something like to put a sacred image in an inappropriate position, a sort of penance, for getting from it SOME FAVORS: to get rid of bad influences and to receive some desired valuable gifts.

Westerners do it whitn images of SAINTS. Ancient chinese people saw cauldrons almost like persons(1), say the OWN ANCESTORS from whom they wait protection and happiness.

Concubines and offsprings were seen as the paramount of happiness. For men, of course.

An almost literal translation of the received text of 50.1:



鼎顛趾。
ding3 dian1 zhi3
CAULDRON INVERTED TOES.
Keeping the cauldron with the feet up

利出否。
li4 chu1pi3
PROFITABLE EXPELLING (THE) EVIL.
Profitable for throwing out bad influences (or for avoid it).

得妾以其子。
de2 qie4 yi3 qi2 zi3
GETTING CONCUBINE AND (or FOR) HER SON.
And for getting a girlfriend and even offsprings.

无咎。
wu2 jiu4
NO WRONG.
No blame.
Nothing bad.


All the best,

Charly

_______________________________
(1) A most popular four legged SHANG DING with HUMAN FACE, which is no frequent. In fact it has four faces.

1-1.jpg

Source: http://www.hnmuseum.com/hnmuseum/eng/whatson/exhibition/qt_1.jsp

Ch.
 
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pocossin

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Is it known where the upside-down image of line 1 comes from?

I am of the opinion that the text comes from visual features of the hexagram in every case. Hexagram 50 is the Ding because it looks like a Ding. The clauses of 50.1 are responses to the component trigrams read as a sentence.

☴ ☰ ☱ ☲

looks like a ding.
suggest the legs of a ding.
looks like a ding upturned.
means empty or bright and suggests cleaning.

Thus,

A ting with legs upturned.
Furthers removal of stagnating stuff.

For the second clause,

☴ ☰ ☱ ☲

suggests gain.
suggests male.
suggests concubine.
suggests having inside (the home).

Thus,

One takes a concubine for the sake of her son.
 

iams girl

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Thank you to all for many insightful responses!

Even a Ding can be cleaned without much fuss, even big respect-demanding things can be solved without too many ummm... cannotfindtheword

Even posts can be posted without too many cannotfindtheword
:)

Hi LiSe, hmmm, “complexities”?
~~~~~~~~~​

To turn Ding upside down is for pouring out the stale food in order to accommodate new material.

When line 1 moves to position 4 and exchanges positions with line 4, the Ding is turned upside down.

Hi Tuck C, thank you so much. So, sounds like it has to do with the dynamics between the strong 4th line and the weak 1st line causing instability in equilibrium. That makes a lot of sense...
~~~~~~~~~​

You forgot the concubine in the line... :rofl:

:blush::blush::blush::rofl:
~~~~~~~~~​

Concubines and offsprings were seen as the paramount of happiness. For men, of course.

Hi Charly – The imagery, words, and picture are so beautiful, enlightening! So, if I have the basics right:
Cauldron = sacred vessel = fertile woman
Standing Cauldron = fertile wife
Upside-down Cauldron = fertile concubine

Maybe still suggests that if one's Cauldron/Sacred Vessel/Wife (50) is barren (line 1, Cauldron empty), taking a concubine (because 1 & 4 flip) is practical, but if one's Cauldron/Sacred Vessel/Wife (50) is already child-bearing (line 4, Cauldron full), taking a concubine (because 1 & 4 flip) will not be the "paramount of happiness" in reality!
 

iams girl

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I am of the opinion that the text comes from visual features of the hexagram in every case. Hexagram 50 is the Ding because it looks like a Ding. The clauses of 50.1 are responses to the component trigrams read as a sentence.

☴ ☰ ☱ ☲

looks like a ding.
suggest the legs of a ding.
looks like a ding upturned.
means empty or bright and suggests cleaning.

Thus,

A ting with legs upturned.
Furthers removal of stagnating stuff.

For the second clause,

☴ ☰ ☱ ☲

suggests gain.
suggests male.
suggests concubine.
suggests having inside (the home).

Thus,

One takes a concubine for the sake of her son.

Thank you very much, Pocossin :):):); I have my homework cut out for me now going over this post...
 

meng

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50.1 is to me very simple and practical. Unless I want my salmon to be flavored by pork, I wash the pot or pan before cooking the salmon.

It is the same with my attitude or disposition. If I want today to taste like today, I must first clean out the residual old stuff from yesterday. Some days can add a positive flavor to the next day or possibly the entire week, but when something has sat too long in the pan, it is unhealthy to cook today's meal in that pot.

I interpret acquiring a concubine for a son as meaning, if the traditional way of doing things isn't going to provide a satisfying future result, find another suitable means of accomplishing the new.
 

charly

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...
Hi Charly – The imagery, words, and picture are so beautiful, enlightening! So, if I have the basics right:
Cauldron = sacred vessel = fertile woman
Standing Cauldron = fertile wife
Upside-down Cauldron = fertile concubine

Maybe still suggests that if one's Cauldron/Sacred Vessel/Wife (50) is barren (line 1, Cauldron empty), taking a concubine (because 1 & 4 flip) is practical, but if one's Cauldron/Sacred Vessel/Wife (50) is already child-bearing (line 4, Cauldron full), taking a concubine (because 1 & 4 flip) will not be the "paramount of happiness" in reality!
Hi, Iams Girl:

Kings or rich people had concubines even if they had fertile wives, sometimes more than one. I believe that concubines were valuable per se and, given that marriage was not for love but for dynastic or economic interests, wives were maybe not so beautiful as concubines.

Among commoners marriage had no effect until the children came, they have only one wife-concubine. I believe that for men to have a concubine was the same that to find love. and maybe more the concubine, better the love. Of course there were phisical limitations, feeling bond, economical affordability.

If chinese men were poligamous (only the high class was), actually they were much more that the 1./3 billion people. But in the fantasy...

Interestig to consult Sears' Chineseetymology for concubine 妾 qie4, which is a composite of upper xing1 and lower nü3 [HARD-WORKING GIRL / ALMOST A SLAVE GIRL = CONCUBINE]
qie4:
a concubine / ( in old China ) a polite term used by a woman to refer to herself when speaking to her husband...
xin1 above woman nü3 → concubine

xin1:
the eighth of the ten celestial stems / bitter / acrid / hard / toilsome / laborious / a Chinese family name...
Remnant Primitive, in context (1) an upside down person - (laying not standing, dead not alive, woman not man, going not comming, slave not free, bad person not good person) (2) sometimes possibly a crowbar like instrument

nü3:
a daughter / a girl / a maiden / a lady / a woman / a female // name of one of the 2 8 constellations...

Source: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=妾

All the best,


Charly
 

iams girl

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I am of the opinion that the text comes from visual features of the hexagram in every case. Hexagram 50 is the Ding because it looks like a Ding. The clauses of 50.1 are responses to the component trigrams read as a sentence.

☴ ☰ ☱ ☲ etc...

Didn't understand when I saw your posts around the forum on these before, but now I see it. Simple, yet elegant. Much gratitude. Will spend lots more time on this... :bows::bows::bows:
 

iams girl

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If I want today to taste like today, I must first clean out the residual old stuff from yesterday. Some days can add a positive flavor to the next day or possibly the entire week...

Sooo! (attached to old name), I see what you're saying. And...from the description of your dishwashing habits, also sounds like you could use a [HARD-WORKING GIRL / ALMOST A SLAVE GIRL = CONCUBINE] yourself :rofl:!
 

meng

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Sooo! (attached to old name), I see what you're saying. And...from the description of your dishwashing habits, also sounds like you could use a [HARD-WORKING GIRL / ALMOST A SLAVE GIRL = CONCUBINE] yourself :rofl:!

heehee, oh I admit, at one time that was something of a fantasy, however 12 years of living alone has made me entirely self sufficient, and polishing my own wine glass and coffee cups has become automatic :). Funny though that you mention this as I'm currently negotiating a co-share living arrangement with a professional woman near my age, though purely platonic in nature and hardly a concubine, and surely no man servant. Purely based on compatible joint economics and mutual respect for each others personal space and time. We both border on being neat freaks and both love well mannered dogs. That should assure a sanitary caldron from both parties, and possibly some enjoyable shared time at the table.

Then, there's another possibly of living entirely alone in a very small quarters but on a large plot of mountain meadows.

Either way, my cauldron would be my responsibility to maintain, and so either way would be sacred. I don't believe concubines are in the cards for this lifetime.
 

iams girl

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Hi Charly, thank you for the reference site and more research about the characters. The imagery is interesting to note and will keep the site as a favorite...

Also, do understand that the physical and economic survival of empires, communities, and cultures has been maintained at times by various arrangements. Yet, also believe human nature at it’s best and worst has remained the same throughout time and that greed, power, jealousy, and vicious plots of “palace intrigue” were also a reality…

Wives were maybe not so beautiful as concubines…

Yet, “one man’s trash is another man’s treasure” likely still held true…

maybe more the concubine, better the love.

Or, then, just as now, it was an indication of inability to develop deeper connections leading down a path to emptiness …

Of course there were phisical limitations, feeling bond, economical affordability.

Say you don't need no diamond ring
And I'll be satisfied
Tell me that you want those kind of things
that money just can't buy
For I don't care too much for money
Cause money can't buy me love
Ooh, can't buy me love, love
Can't buy me love, no

Wasn’t written by a female…:)

But in the fantasy...

Anyone interested in buying an island called Sirenum scopuli…:rofl:?
 

charly

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... though purely platonic in nature ... possibly some enjoyable shared time ...
Hi, Bruce:

Maybe the chinese word for CONCUBINE only meant a WOMAN not in the role of WIFE.

Not as HOUSEKEEPER but only for ENJOYING SHARED TIME.

Take care and good luck.

Charly
 

meng

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Hi Charly,

Actually, her ad copy included: "I would keep the house VERY CLEAN, do chores, run errands etc. or anything else that might be needed to contribute to the running of the household."

;)

But the fact is, so would I do those things. :)
 

iams girl

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Maybe the chinese word for CONCUBINE only meant a WOMAN not in the role of WIFE.

Not as HOUSEKEEPER but only for ENJOYING SHARED TIME.

Thanks Charly,

...without financial means, it was probably also common for a percentage of wives/concubines to be contractual agreements for simple, practical reasons as well; in their case to meet needs of widows, barren, handicapped, etc...
 
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charly

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About the ding: CAULDRON / CRUCIBLE

Your life, with a fully integrated body, mind and spirit, is like a beautiful Pearl, something to be cultivated, treasured, respected, and valued. In the end, the two pearls or three pearls or ten thousands parts of our bodies are just One Pearl. Not Two, One. The Two cooperate, integrate, interdependently merge, like lovers united, like Yin and Yang, like Tiger and Dragon combining forces to Energize the Cauldron of the One.

ball77.gif

Source: http://www.egreenway.com/qigong/magicpearlqigong.htm#2

Ch.
 

iams girl

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Mind and Spirit...the Two cooperate, integrate, interdependently merge, like lovers united, like Yin and Yang, like Tiger and Dragon combining forces to Energize the Cauldron of the One.

I wish...:rofl:

However, beautiful and powerful rendition, nice find...
 
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There is a little bit of 22 in 50, in that the ding is described physically, but reflects it's purpose that is deeper than the material world.
 

rodaki

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Charly thanks for sharing that link. I noticed that Glenda Chao also has in that article a discussion on the importance of bronze as having both material and immaterial qualities, imbued to it by the spirit of authority who molded it . . That reminded me a thought I made a couple of days ago, trying to figure out the importance of the 'bronze brake; of 44.1, ie that the bronze brake took on the positive potential of 44 into it, turning it into something that could be further used as a manifestation of 1

. . After reading this article, I thought if you (or anyone with knowledge on these aspects of chinese symbols) would think that the bronze in the beginning of 'proclaiming commands' could be related to the bronze as a material that could manifest the mandate?
:bows:
 

rodaki

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well, fwiw,
I tried to find more about the 'bronze brake' but it seems it might not even have been bronze at all, since most other translations have it as 'metal' and in dictionaries it comes up as 'various metal objects'. or 'money'.
My question still lingers in my mind though, to those who have studied Yi thought and customs in more depth, if those two (the sacred ding and the metal brake) could be related in any way, cause now it seems that 金 is used more like a 'pacifier' in 44.1 rather than any sacred refining process . .
 
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Hi Rodaki,

For what it is worth I thought I would throw some things out there, but I have not been studying Yi very long... 金 shows up six times in the Zhouyi. Once in 4, 44, 47, 50 and twice in 21. I was looking at 47 line 4, with the bronze chariot.. do you think this would also be of significance? Is the metal of the chariot, and the metal of the ding to convey the importance of the physical item being used for something ceremonial? Like they put a lot of stock into their ritualistic items to make sure they lasted ?? Maybe 4 line 3 is a situation of making things that are NOT of ritualistic importance made of metal ?

Adding:

I am looking more at 44 line 1 and have a question. What are the chocks or brakes that are made of bronze? I admit my searching skills are not as well rounded as they should be. I have been searching the internet and am not coming up with even a rough answer. I looked up 柅 in Google translater and it came back with 'Chi' which is 'Tree' or 'Stop'. I get a visual of a metal chain that is constricting someone from venturing out, and it is tied to a tree.

Thank you Rodaki, now I feel the need to look up all of the Character's of the Zhouyi seperately and do some research. I am hoping we can figure out the significance of the bronze (金) aspect of 44.1 and maybe even the other lines that include 金.

But back to the brakes, can anyone explain to me what they are? Are they like handcuffs? Something metal that restricts movement? (And if anyone can give me a good website to translate the Zhouyi Characters, plug them in and translate them to English, I would be very appreciative).

Take care,
AQ
 
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