...life can be translucent

Menu

ever got overly optimistic cast?

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Greetings everybody :bows:
does that happen a lot and with what an outcome? I realise it is a question of interpretation and the state of mind one is at the time so the cast is a bit of a :eek: feeling
but when you receive something vague like "blessings form heaven, there is nothing that would not further" for asking something that you know quite a few big changes would have to prelude, what to make out of an veery optimistic answer in such an case? :rolleyes:
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
Taking readings as predictions will not take you very far.
To think a reading optimistic or pessimistic is the wrong approach.
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Well, one has to take it in some way. And if one gets ans answer like
14.6
He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

it may be actually saying: Yes,only heavens can help you...:mischief:
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
Well, one has to take it in some way. And if one gets ans answer like
14.6
He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

it may be actually saying: Yes,only heavens can help you...:mischief:

Not necessarily IMO. There are times I think one gets the equivalent of gibberish from Yi if one has crossed the threshold of asking repetitive questions it stops answering in any intelligible way. It warns of this clearly in hexagram 4

From Wilhelm transaltion

"....
It is not I who seek the young fool
The young fool seeks me
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times it is importunity.
If he importunes I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers."



I have personally found it definateley means what it says here.


So if its a question you have already put to Yi many times, maybe a different format but fundamentally the same question, its possible you won't be answered and will get 'empty' answers.

You said "Well one has to take it in some way...". Yi says in hex 4 it does stop answering. Now of course as long as we cast coins and so on we will always get an answer, there will be a hexagram with lines moving (or not) but that doesn't mean Yi is still answering. You can't make it answer.


People differ on whether they think Yi stops answering....(although Yi speaking of itself says it does ) but many people tend to know when they have stopped being answered...when they can't hear anymore, and I think that is generally after asking the same question, in differing formats many many times.



Of course this may not be with regard to a question you have asked many many times ?

It may just be an answer that seems impossible to you ? But you may be taking the 14.6 as indicating a particular precise outcome that you consider fortunate and Yi may be referring to something else altogether.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
when you receive something vague like "blessings form heaven, there is nothing that would not further" for asking something that you know quite a few big changes would have to prelude, what to make out of an veery optimistic answer in such an case? :rolleyes:


Question: Doing X which will include a lot of big changes?

Answer: 14.6 > 34 (possibly?)

To me this would say that if you do happen to choose to go thru with X, and move through all of the big changes that need to occur to get to that point, then it will be advantageous. This reading is just showing you what would happen if you do happen to take the initiative.

It also has 34 as the backdrop, unless you got other lines as well. 34 would be saying that X is a big idea (hence all of the big changes that would have to occur). 14 is also along the same lines in saying that big changes would need to take place, and that you would need to delve deep into your energy, and cultivate the good things, get rid of the bad things, do a lot of changes to acheive X, but it is possible and would be a great thing if you did.

I think initiative is a key word here.

All the best,
Courtney
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Not necessarily IMO. There are times I think one gets the equivalent of gibberish from Yi if one has crossed the threshold of asking repetitive questions it stops answering in any intelligible way. It warns of this clearly in hexagram 4

From Wilhelm transaltion

"....
It is not I who seek the young fool
The young fool seeks me
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times it is importunity.
If he importunes I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers."



I have personally found it definateley means what it says here.


So if its a question you have already put to Yi many times, maybe a different format but fundamentally the same question, its possible you won't be answered and will get 'empty' answers.

Is that really possible - to get "empty" answers...?
For instance, I got 24.4 only yesterday, asking about the bill I was waiting to get, wondered how big/worrying it will be and it came today, smaller then I thought, actually...could not make out that one at all - maybe my mind was getting back to it and i will address the issue maybe again or I should just stay away from asking such questions...I prefer to ask different things that feel more important to me in any case.


You said "Well one has to take it in some way...". Yi says in hex 4 it does stop answering. Now of course as long as we cast coins and so on we will always get an answer, there will be a hexagram with lines moving (or not) but that doesn't mean Yi is still answering. You can't make it answer.

Ouch, picking at an Oracle...I think we are on good terms...I hope:blush:
But this is a new argument for me, suggesting that an oracle can give up the cooperation with you? That`s not fair...I mean...how can we be sure when that is the case? Hazy answers?:duh:



People differ on whether they think Yi stops answering....(although Yi speaking of itself says it does ) but many people tend to know when they have stopped being answered...when they can't hear anymore, and I think that is generally after asking the same question, in differing formats many many times.

I think Yi has been very kind to me in that regard. At worse, it gives me the answer that boils down to the same if I ask about one thing over again. I got a few "rude" answers, but only a few and not hex 4 in that sense as an exclusive answer for an overly eager seeker. Hex 4 I get whenmy head is in a lot of confusion, btw.

Of course this may not be with regard to a question you have asked many many times ?
In this particular case, i asked a general type of question, what will happen with a certain aspect of my life...so I am being patted on the head here perhaps but as ungrateful kid that I am, it comforts me only so much...:blush:

It may just be an answer that seems impossible to you ? But you may be taking the 14.6 as indicating a particular precise outcome that you consider fortunate and Yi may be referring to something else altogether. ....well, that may be, but it is a situation where one cant go to B without achieving A because B just can`t be complete without it...so only heavens can help.:cool:

So am I to gather that if the answer is too aloof or just not concrete enough, Yi is giving an "empty" answer?
And I don`t think it is like a wishing well, more like an insight into current state of affairs and in my case, poor thing has nothing to react to as it needs an action for the reaction. :blush:
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Ty, Courtney, wish I asked like you wrote, it makes sense and I really like your interpretation of THAT posed question. Now just got to ask Oracle till it answers me with the same:mischief:
:bows:
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
So am I to gather that if the answer is too aloof or just not concrete enough, Yi is giving an "empty" answer?
And I don`t think it is like a wishing well, more like an insight into current state of affairs and in my case, poor thing has nothing to react to as it needs an action for the reaction. :blush:

I didn't say or mean that if an answer were hard to understand it always means its an 'empty answer'. You misunderstood me. I was saying sometimes it can be an empty answer if one had asked the same thing many times.

You answered my points in purple within my own quote...so I can't answer them one by one unless i do the copy paste thing....and can't read the purple well anyway

However here is a bit I pasted

Ouch, picking at an Oracle...I think we are on good terms...I hope
But this is a new argument for me, suggesting that an oracle can give up the cooperation with you? That`s not fair...I mean...how can we be sure when that is the case? Hazy answers?


Why is that new :confused: You have seen hexagram 4 before haven't you. IMO of course it can cease answering you, it isn't your slave. As to how you can tell when its not answering....well its up to the individual and how they sense it. Some people may never sense it because it hasn't happened to them. Some people may just not believe it ever happens. I personally do think it happens and I think its important to learn to recognise it. Generally I know when I've got to question overload and am lost because the answers completely lose coherence and clarity or are infact addressing my state of mind in asking. That is quite common and I usually recognise a bit later on.

Its completely up to you what you want to think about it, or if you believe its possible Yi ever doesn't answer.( But what do you really think what I quoted from Hexagram 4 was all about ? ) You asked for peoples opinions about an answer that really made no sense to you. At least I thought thats what you were asking. I gave one idea of what may be happening. I didn't say it was happening with you in this instance...as I don't know that. It was just a suggestion, take it or leave it. Makes no difference to me what you believe or what you think is 'fair'.

You seem to have the strange idea of what is said in hex 4 is some kind of punishment...but it isn't, its just communication breaks down when you stop hearing and keep asking.


If you were sitting in a car with someone and asked them the same question on a 100 mile journey over and over and over again even though they had answered you as best they could 50 times already and they couldn't get away from you I think at some point they may start talking gibberish while doing this :lalala: Yi isn't quite like a person in a car but nevertheless there can come a point where answers get very random and unintelligible through repetitive questioning IMO....thats how Yi does not answering

However if you don't think that was what was happening with this answer thats fine...as I said it was just a suggestion.


But Yi isn't a comfort blanket thats always going to make you feel better. Sometimes it pushes you back on yourself. Each person will experience that 'pushing back' differently or maybe not at all. Its a very individual relationship we all have with Yi.

I think each person comes to know through their own instinct when Yi has taken the phone off the hook.
Sometimes one can ask many questions , same topic...phone stays on hook...its not like a rule laid down by someone. But it is is an energetic exchange I believe and one can't do with it just as one wants.



It has dignity you know

LOL
 
Last edited:

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
Not necessarily IMO. There are times I think one gets the equivalent of gibberish from Yi if one has crossed the threshold of asking repetitive questions it stops answering in any intelligible way. It warns of this clearly in hexagram 4

From Wilhelm translation

"....
It is not I who seek the young fool
The young fool seeks me
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times it is importunity.
If he importunes I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers."

.

Also from Hilarys book for hex 4


I do not seek the young ignoramus the young ignoramus seeks me
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and thrid pollute the waters.
Polluted and hence not speaking.
Constancy bears fruit




Am very much puzzled how after consulting Yi for a while now you find the idea of Yi not answering so bizarre. Yi itself says it sometimes doesn't answer and you say 'thats not fair'.


What do you/did you think this part of the oracle for hexagram 4 actually means then ?

See when it says sometimes it doesn't answer here in hex 4...well it can't stop you asking, but it can blank you by giving white noise/random non answers....thats how it 'not answers'. You have to develop the feeling for when that happens. I think you have to allow for the possibilty that Yi may not answer afterall it itself has told us.....I think its really important to allow for that possibility.....but it is an intuitive sense.....like the sense you have when someone put the phone down. You didn't hear the phone go down but you could feel the 'no one there' so you have to learn for yourself through your own feelings and connection with Yi as to when or if it isn't answering.

Thats merely a suggestion. I have no idea if it answered or didn't answer you here
 
Last edited:

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
I think you would like to read this answer as being patted on the back, getting an 'all green lights pass' -sort of, and, wouldn't we all at one point or other?- but again, this imo misses the point of your real answer.

For one, 14.6 does not say that everything will go your way or as you wish, it speaks of 'heaven's blessings'. That there alone, comes with a bunch of big questionmarks: are heaven's blessings like earthly blessings? do they work the same way, do they yield similar results, or follow the same rules? In this, the overall meanings of hexagrams might come handy; this is the 6th line of hx14 and takes you to 34, great having turns to great power -what is the meaning of 'great' here? is it about size or quality and if the latter, what kind of quality is that being hinted at? And what's the other side of this line saying, 34.6, what kind of light could that throw on all this greatness? and so on and so forth, I think you get the gist here

For me all the above take us away from the easy-peasy wide-eyed wish for optimism to the (more real) intricacies lines like this imply. The Yi can be infinitely subtle and rich in its meaning yet it always allows a way to all kinds of views - the rest lies with the beholder ;)

oh, btw, I too, had received the same answer a couple of years ago for a very important life question . . the whole issue is underway and will keep on evolving for many years to come but, so far, it hasn't been a walk in the park . . as to the riches, assets etc, their meaning is still one that is yet to be fully formed in me too - perhaps 'heavenly blessings' also come with steep prices . .
:cool:
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
For one, 14.6 does not say that everything will go your way or as you wish, it speaks of 'heaven's blessings'. That there alone, comes with a bunch of big questionmarks: are heaven's blessings like earthly blessings? do they work the same way, do they yield similar results, or follow the same rules?
:cool:

Heh 'No' is the answer to all those questions I think. All texts on 14 should have this quote in bold at the side
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
I didn't say or mean that if an answer were hard to understand it always means its an 'empty answer'. You misunderstood me. I was saying sometimes it can be an empty answer if one had asked the same thing many times.
Why is that new :confused: You have seen hexagram 4 before haven't you. IMO of course it can cease answering you, it isn't your slave. As to how you can tell when its not answering....well its up to the individual and how they sense it. Some people may never sense it because it hasn't happened to them. Some people may just not believe it ever happens. I personally do think it happens and I think its important to learn to recognise it. Generally I know when I've got to question overload and am lost because the answers completely lose coherence and clarity or are infact addressing my state of mind in asking. That is quite common and I usually recognise a bit later on.

Its completely up to you what you want to think about it, or if you believe its possible Yi ever doesn't answer.( But what do you really think what I quoted from Hexagram 4 was all about ? ) You asked for peoples opinions about an answer that really made no sense to you. At least I thought thats what you were asking. I gave one idea of what may be happening. I didn't say it was happening with you in this instance...as I don't know that. It was just a suggestion, take it or leave it. Makes no difference to me what you believe or what you think is 'fair'.

You seem to have the strange idea of what is said in hex 4 is some kind of punishment...but it isn't, its just communication breaks down when you stop hearing and keep asking.

If you were sitting in a car with someone and asked them the same question on a 100 mile journey over and over and over again even though they had answered you as best they could 50 times already and they couldn't get away from you I think at some point they may start talking gibberish while doing this :lalala: Yi isn't quite like a person in a car but nevertheless there can come a point where answers get very random and unintelligible through repetitive questioning IMO....thats how Yi does not answering

However if you don't think that was what was happening with this answer thats fine...as I said it was just a suggestion.

But Yi isn't a comfort blanket thats always going to make you feel better. Sometimes it pushes you back on yourself. Each person will experience that 'pushing back' differently or maybe not at all. Its a very individual relationship we all have with Yi.

I think each person comes to know through their own instinct when Yi has taken the phone off the hook.
Sometimes one can ask many questions , same topic...phone stays on hook...its not like a rule laid down by someone. But it is is an energetic exchange I believe and one can't do with it just as one wants.

It has dignity you know

LOL

I don`t have a problem with anything you have said here. makes sense to me.
This is the place to explore and exchange, I posted in that sense.
This is what I said about hex 4 and "empty" reading:
I think Yi has been very kind to me in that regard. At worse, it gives me the answer that boils down to the same if I ask about one thing over again. I got a few "rude" answers, but only a few and not hex 4 in that sense as an exclusive answer for an overly eager seeker. Hex 4 I get when my head is in a lot of confusion, btw.
By "exclusive" I meant that I don`t think one only gets it when asking too much. If that was so, it would certainly simplify things and there would be no need for "empty" readings then, right?:mischief: As if one asked too much, would receive hex 4 automatically.
I don`t think I have ever seen that phrasing "empty reading" and it should be given some thought.
So far, my reasoning was "Well, if I don`t understand this answer it is because my knowledge is not wast enough or I am unable to grasp it" :rant:(due to my emotional state mostly)..provided I was not asking too much about it without anything different happening to the situation etc..
But I have noticed that the answer that is less of a "quality" is the one gotten when asking while upset or depressed or similar. In those cases I would get gloomy answers, once even of the idea "well, you got stuck with it, so learn to deal" (can`t remember the hex, last line).
So in that light I wondered about those uplifting positiveness of soothing aloofness...makes me go:cool::lalala: and it may be a dangerous way to go about it---not that I had too many... but i wish I have gotten hex 4 unchanged rather then "empty reading", you now.
In that sense, perhaps it is a punishment, not hex 4.

But is is a very good point, heavens blessings, I would think it would mean that I will get supported opulently but good fortune in my endeavors, something in that sense..to be optimistic...don`t really have the clear idea what was meant...but what heavens had planed, that may be the whole different thing, thanks for pointing that out to me.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Hey there. Is your head feeling better? I couldn't help but want to comment on 'gloomy answers' from your reply to Trojan. I see them as 'heavenly blessings'. If I'm asking about X and (for example) the line says misfortune from being persistant, then I am fortunate to know that I should not be persistant. It's like awesome road signs telling you about a detour from a huge hole in the road. You are the driver and directing your own car.

Besically, you can go down the road of 'misfortune' and play out the gloomy option if you'd like, or you can take a different route with a whole new set of possibilites.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
On the flip side, if you recieve a QUOTE UNQUOTE "good" answer, :) I would say the same thing. You are in the car, you have recieved a map that says if you go THIS WAY things will be fortunate. You could easily not want to take that road because it appears as an old covered bridge or an up hill journey. You could take another route and have all of the possibilities of fortune and misfortune at your fingertips. Or you could take the road that you originally thought of when you asked the question and recieved the 'good' answer.

And back to the 'gloomy reading of misfortune' , when I recieve information about a bad road to go on, I will sometimes ask, "What about this road instead?".

It's really about driving the vehicle. (--insert driving smilie here--)
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
I was saying that when I am not feeling well, down in spirit, tormented with things or similar and I ask again, I have noticed answers to be gloomier - which makes sense as mirroring, I guess and I don`t think those are of the great insight and they make me feel worse, so I think its the best thing to avoid that all together.
That feeling of being in the drivers seat has left me few years ago, not that i don`t understand what you are saying, it is a position of strength many don`t seem to come from when casting.

Great heath, headache is fashionable, at least mine thinks so, thanks for asking :)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
So your car is not moving due to inertia or lack of gas? And to get out of the spot you are in, you ask again the same question instead of going for another road? Is it a determination of wanting to go a certain direction that makes you ask the same thing instead of picking a different avenue?
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Said that as an example, in this case for 14.6 I was asking a general question- what will happen with an aspect of my life that for now is impeded with many things...
(perhaps it is my way of communicating but it is a lost cause if one takes me literaly all of the time ;)
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
By "exclusive" I meant that I don`t think one only gets it when asking too much. If that was so, it would certainly simplify things and there would be no need for "empty" readings then, right?:mischief: As if one asked too much, would receive hex 4 automatically.
I don`t think I have ever seen that phrasing "empty reading" and it should be given some thought.

You won't have seen the phrase 'empty reading' before because its mine, I made it up
its exclusive to moi :D

Yes one can get hex 4 over many many things, not just around asking repetitively. I think hex 4 is just the place where its stated that Yi not answering is possible



So far, my reasoning was "Well, if I don`t understand this answer it is because my knowledge is not wast enough or I am unable to grasp it" :rant:(due to my emotional state mostly)..provided I was not asking too much about it without anything different happening to the situation etc..

Well yes theres many answers I don't understand but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion Yi isn't answering because i don't understand. The sense of Yi not answering is very individual thing. I know it happens to me because I may get one or two very clear answers on something...so I have my answer to think about. Sometimes Yi has given me the same answer several times. A while later I ask perhaps from another angle.....but it doesn't feel quite right, theres 'interference', noise on the wire, like a bad signal on a phone...it isn't the right time to be using the oracle again, the answers are 'empty'. When I sense the time is right I may ask again....and I'll get the same answer I had originally....so that was, still is my answer.

I think we can make answers far too temporary....some of them can last for years and years



But I have noticed that the answer that is less of a "quality" is the one gotten when asking while upset or depressed or similar. In those cases I would get gloomy answers, once even of the idea "well, you got stuck with it, so learn to deal" (can`t remember the hex, last line).
So in that light I wondered about those uplifting positiveness of soothing aloofness...makes me go:cool::lalala: and it may be a dangerous way to go about it---not that I had too many... but i wish I have gotten hex 4 unchanged rather then "empty reading", you now.
In that sense, perhaps it is a punishment, not hex 4.

I think you are saying soothing answers that sometimes may be what I call 'empty answers' are dangerous to our emotions ? I agree its a trap in that it can be a form of self delusion. However I don't know if you have ever had 'empty answers' so I think if the idea of that troubles you you could dismiss it for now . I don't think we were ever meant to be as dependent on the I Ching as many of us are...so I've come to actually value the sense of the empty answer. i take it as a signal its time for me to do it on my own...to grapple with existing answers on my own. Sometimes this is very refreshing.

Also like Courtney says somewhere here a so called 'negative' answer may be the most perfect answer for us at that moment. For example if you really wanted to go out but felt you ought to stay in and work and asked Yis advice about your restless feeling and got 60.2 its a brilliant answer isn't it...it tells you its bad to stay in.....whoopee...60.2 may look like a 'negative' answer but for you at that moment it really isn't.

But is is a very good point, heavens blessings, I would think it would mean that I will get supported opulently but good fortune in my endeavors, something in that sense..to be optimistic...don`t really have the clear idea what was meant...but what heavens had planed, that may be the whole different thing, thanks for pointing that out to me.

Yes you never know what is going to turn up

:bounce:

all manner of strange good fortunes can befall us


at any time


re gloomy answers that appear to be taking you in a downward spiral....yes I think thats part of learning when to stop asking for a while....otherwise you might drive yourself mad....and as you say often it is just showing your attitude . This is often the case with 47 for example
 
Last edited:

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
...
But is is a very good point, heavens blessings, I would think it would mean that I will get supported opulently but good fortune in my endeavors, something in that sense..to be optimistic...but what heavens had planed, that may be the whole different thing, thanks for point that out to me.

Hi, Dragona:

I believe that, given that the only line that moves in H.14 is the highest, it means that you have received a Heavenly Blessig, which is lucky and good enough. I don't believe that the prognostication lis so superlatively good as W/B says.

Maybe you don't know what's the blessing. But the resolution depends on what will you do, how will you behave.

Sometimes usual translations obscures what is clear in the text for somebody who knows how to read it. And that person can be only yourself.

Chinese received text a literal TRANSLATION and glosses of 14.6:

zi4: from / self / oneself / since /
tian1: day / sky / heaven /
you4: blessing / divine protection /
zhi1: ...'s / him / her / it /
ji2: lucky / fortunate / propitious /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
bu4: un ... (negative prefix) / not / no /
li4: advantage / benefit / profit / profitable /


FROM HEAVEN BLESSING'S
The origin of received blessing is heaven.
Heavenly blessing.
Grace from Heaven.

LUCKY [AND] NO UNPROFITABLE.
Fortunate and no without profit.
Say, materially beneficial for you.
It ranges from a little profitable to much profitable,
only lack of profitability is discarded.​


Of course, we can read it as only whit the help of haven can we attain our goals, but I believe that if there is an advice for us, it only can be: TRUST IN THE GRACE OF HEAVEN, we will feel lucky and it will result profitable.

If we have received the grace of heaven it will function even if we don't trust in it. But if we don't trust in it, and our goals look like a little IMPOSSIBLE, we will do nothing for attaining it which will not help us too much.

Maybe one key for understanding what is the blessing is H.34, that says:

H.34:

da4:big / large / great /
zhuang4:to strengthen / strong / robust /
li4:advantage / benefit / profit / profitable /
zhen1: perseverant / chaste / virtuous / pure / loyal // divination / omen​
/


BIG [&] STRONG.
Great Strength.

PROFITABLE OMEN.
Previsibly beneficial.

You'll became strenghtened.

zhuang4, strong, vigorous is applied mainly for men, but in the Changes appears also applied to a lady in H.44, with unclear meanings.

The character depicts half a tree trunk + official, scholar, tall man, say, the TALL MAN WITH THE BIG STICK AT HAND.

It's also said that it depicts a BED or a TABLE + TALL MAN:

• like a tall man in the bed, VIGOROUS,
• like a tall man in the table: INSATIABLE

I've found in Rutt another key for interpreting what's the blessing of 14.6. Speaking of the conflictive character JIAO, that appears in 14.1 and 14.5, meaning literally INTERCOURSE, Rut says:

...people read similar omens in the flight of crows, ravens and magpies, and in rodents and cats crossing one's path .Jiao is so used in Ode 215.1 ...

Crosswise fly the mulberry birds
his Lordship will be blessed by heaven.

Rutt, page 308

Seeing a couple of birds crossing their paths when flying is an omen of heavenly blessing.
Must be said that the birds are performing a courtship dance before mating which means that the heaven's grace can be marriage or sexual happiness.

Rutt adds:
... Waley, however, taking jiao as onomatopoeic, thought the birds in the Ode were chirruping rather than flying.

Rutt, page 308

Say, the birds are crying JIAO, JIAO, meaning maybe PRIDE, PRIDE, but, given that the birds don't write, people hear them crying F_CK! F_CK!, which is not strange in the Odes.

I wonder what was your consult, because H.14 BIG POSSESSION - GREAT ENDOWMENT is, in the first five lines, full of sexual associations, but that's another story.


All the best,


Charly
 
Last edited:

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Thank you very much Charly, you made me smile :) talk about blessings from heaven...wish I knew somebody to teach me Chinese :), as i have not seen it anywhere, the birds association you made, that I can remember of now....
Sometimes it feels that Yi is talking about one thing over again or you mentioning pride just when I was thinking about it was a case of synchronicity....and it speaks about love life...
Not sure what you meant by my consult-translation? Legge, Wilhelm, LiSe, today http://www.iching123.com/52_text.htm :)

Maybe am running in circles...
but if someone feels like adding to the theme of the suspiciously good looking reading, feel free.
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
You won't have seen the phrase 'empty reading' before because its mine, I made it up
its exclusive to moi :D
I thought it might be so:rolleyes:
I think we can make answers far too temporary....some of them can last for years and years
People can get intimidated by the accuracy of the answer and dare not consult again - I know of such case
I think you are saying soothing answers that sometimes may be what I call 'empty answers' are dangerous to our emotions ? I agree its a trap in that it can be a form of self delusion. However I don't know if you have ever had 'empty answers' so I think if the idea of that troubles you you could dismiss it for now . I don't think we were ever meant to be as dependent on the I Ching as many of us are...so I've come to actually value the sense of the empty answer. i take it as a signal its time for me to do it on my own...to grapple with existing answers on my own. Sometimes this is very refreshing.
I think less is more. Easier said then done for us westerners, perhaps. I do believe I had empty answers, yes and dismissive ones, as explained. Only a few, but I remember stings well.

re gloomy answers that appear to be taking you in a downward spiral....yes I think thats part of learning when to stop asking for a while....otherwise you might drive yourself mad....and as you say often it is just showing your attitude . This is often the case with 47 for example
So now you can understand how gloomy I can get but promising not - I know the origins of my gloom.
:bows:
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Hi, Dragona:

I believe that, given that the only line that moves in H.14 is the highest, it means that you have received a Heavenly Blessig, which is lucky and good enough. I don't believe that the prognostication lis so superlatively good as W/B says.

Maybe you don't know what's the blessing. But the resolution depends on what will you do, how will you behave.

Sometimes usual translations obscures what is clear in the text for somebody who knows how to read it. And that person can be only yourself.
Of course, we can read it as only whit the help of haven can we attain our goals, but I believe that if there is an advice for us, it only can be: TRUST IN THE GRACE OF HEAVEN, we will feel lucky and it will result profitable.

If we have received the grace of heaven it will function even if we don't trust in it. But if we don't trust in it, and our goals look like a little IMPOSSIBLE, we will do nothing for attaining it which will not help us too much.

All the best,


Charly

I hope you could shed some light on this follow up as well...made sense for me to ask:
What can I do to obtain 14.6? Hex 18.2<52
Suffice to say, I don`t really understand except that one should not be too pushy with corrections. Unless we take it literally, since I do live with my ill mother and have no freedom as she is dependable and nerve wrecking that has already started to take a tole on my life. (some nerves reactions led to a certain breakup I regret of still).
many thanks, d.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,920
Reaction score
4,426
I hope you could shed some light on this follow up as well...made sense for me to ask:
What can I do to obtain 14.6? Hex 18.2<52
Suffice to say, I don`t really understand except that one should not be too pushy with corrections. Unless we take it literally, since I do live with my ill mother and have no freedom as she is dependable and nerve wrecking that has already started to take a tole on my life. (some nerves reactions led to a certain breakup I regret of still).
many thanks, d.

I have had to think about 18.2 alot when I got it often for a few months last year. None of the commentaries really seemed to be fitting. I think I found Hilarys the nearest but its quite loose. Seems to be about the corruption of giving care...or receiving care....but its quite hard to actually ground this kind of interpretation in any real experience. There was a point where I was getting 18.2 where I was about to take on more than I could manage, which did involve giving care but still it puzzled me to relate this to the idea of mothering/mothers in any way

In your case its sounds very literal doesn't it. You have to take care of your mother and she leans very heavily on you so you feel you have no life of your own ? Thats not an enviable position.

Is it questionable ? Is she terminally ill ? Do you genuinally feel she needs you to be there all the time ?


Do you feel you may need an outsider to help you see whats really needed here, from you ? I know with mothers we can't see clearly what we owe them...or might feel we owe them an unending amount of care because they gave that to us as children. This feeling would certainly be open to exploitation ....and it comes out in all the mixed feelings between mothers and daughters...guilt, love, hate :hissy: devotion, irritation and all that .....in all that how do we decide what we really do owe them...given that unless they are very terrible mothers we do owe them something ?

.......sometimes its impossible without an outside view to see what is really going on. If you have to care for her and she treats you bad and that limits your life thats very hard for you.
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
Well, one has to take it in some way. And if one gets ans answer like
14.6
He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

it may be actually saying: Yes,only heavens can help you...:mischief:

Recently, I was asked how I interpret 14.6, and called it a nice samadhi, a good buzz.

I love your reverse psychology comment. Could say that great possession requires freedom from it.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Lise on 18.2:
Do not answer to demands which go against your sense of righteousness, beauty or love, even if they are commonly accepted as being good and nice. Many 'nice' gestures are demeaning for the recipient, taking away his strength or self-confidence.
What she says here, I think it helps a lot. You would think that everyone should always care for their parents because that is what they did for us, and it is just what people do, but sometimes it is unhealthy for both sides. I am not sure about your situation.

I've never got this line on it's own, always with other lines. For me I felt it was referring to my mother's approach at life. I see that it has hurt her in the long run. Her dominant nature, as well as many poor choices, has caused her to lose many connections with friends and also ill health. I have thought this line over and over and what I think it was saying to me was to learn by example, and not to follow in her footsteps. It's hard because of the deep connection of a mother and daughter (nothing else like it really). To me, my mom is the most human thing I have ever seen. So raw and untamed like a bunch of energy but with no direction to go.

A way to stop the flow of similar footsteps is to cut the umbilical cord, even just emotionally, to save yourself. Take care of yourself. :hug: -Courtney
 

dragona

visitor
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
26
Thanx ladies, but things are getting confusing answers wise...I think I need to clear some things for myself, primarily, as it looks Yi is talking of the same all of the time.

I did not want this tread to be about me, more about topic of answers that seem very favorable and yet aloof. There are a few lines like this one I got in The Book. Not that I mind getting them at all.

But asking "how" in this case made sense to me, hope charly answers with more.

I don`t want to go to too much into mother situation here, but everything that has been happening for the last few years had altered me for the worse-health wise, nerves wise, looks wise, energy wise.
I did not fully understand the message I got back then for asking wether to take that step (I think the cast was Biting Through, line 6 - distinctly remember mentioning of the loss of freedom-talk about long term and full awareness of meaning) but it felt I had no choice, I needed some breathing space.
Only progress that can be made here is one from my side, unfortunately.
I needed an inspiration as I am left alone in this and a motif would help me a great deal. What greater motif but love...so I don`t really know what the cast is talking about now...
I like to return to the question asked in such situations, and it was to clarify what i CAN do atm towards 14.6?
In the light of what was asked, I would say it has more to do with Courtney`s take...we can only try fix ourselves..
 
Last edited:

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
I did not want this tread to be about me, more about topic of answers that seem very favorable and yet aloof. There are a few lines like this one I got in The Book. Not that I mind getting them at all.

But asking "how" in this case made sense to me, hope charly answers with more.


Only progress that can be made here is one from my side, unfortunately.
I needed an inspiration as I am left alone in this and a motif would help me a great deal. What greater motif but love...so I don`t really know what the cast is talking about now...
I like to return to the question asked in such situations, and it was to clarify what i CAN do atm towards 14.6?
In the light of what was asked, I would say it has more to do with Courtney`s take...we can only try fix ourselves..


I found the above rather helpful here - feels like your thread would benefit more in the SR forum, cause now it's like it's trying to walk on two different planes at once . .

To go back to the 'optimism/pessimism' approach, it is often all a matter of pov, maybe sometimes a mirage - if you want to see the positive aspects you'll do just that even in the darkest lines and vice versa . . Besides, I don't always find the all-positive view of things, helpful; sometimes we need to dwell on the darker side, sometimes we are enriched by looking into the 'negative' aspects, the dangers, the fears the doubts . . it's ok to be there, it's human and it can also be immensely creative and fruitful.

Besides, the all-shining nature of some answers might even come as a challenge - the question then becomes, are you up to it?
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top