Jou, Tsung Hwa's book

mary f · Jun 27, 2012

Does any of you know if there's a more recent edition of Jou, Tsung Hwa's book, other than the one that misse's a line of Hex. 4? Would you let me know where could I buy it?

Thanks in advance.
:bows:

mary f · Jun 27, 2012

By the way, what's your opinion on his book? I would appreciate to receive some opinions too.
Tks agn.

cjgait · Jun 27, 2012

No new edition that I know of

I don't know any newer editions. That translation has always been one of favorites.

answeredquestions · Jun 27, 2012

1984- http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Ching...819793&sr=8-5&keywords=i+ching+Jou,+Tsung+Hwa

1989- http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Ching...qid=1340820138&sr=8-3&keywords=Jou,+Tsung+Hwa

from www.amazon.com

mary f · Jun 28, 2012

Thank you

cjgait said:
I don't know any newer editions. That translation has always been one of favorites.

Thanks Cjgait!! Yeah, he has a peculiar way of interpreting, right?! To me his thoughts always add a fresh and (why not?) fun perspective.

answeredquestions said:
1984- http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Ching...819793&sr=8-5&keywords=i+ching+Jou,+Tsung+Hwa

1989- http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Ching...qid=1340820138&sr=8-3&keywords=Jou,+Tsung+Hwa

from www.amazon.com

Thank you too Answeredquestions. The edition I have is June 2000. It's the one that does not have Yao/Line 2 of Hexagram 4.

BTW would any of you be so kind to transcribe it to me?
Mary F

pocossin · Jun 28, 2012

mary f said:
The edition I have is June 2000. It's the one that does not have Yao/Line 2 of Hexagram 4.

BTW would any of you be so kind to transcribe it to me?

I have the 2000 printing too. 4.2 could be missing in all versions.

rodaki · Jun 28, 2012

pocossin said:
4.2 could be missing in all versions.

mmm . . that's an intriguing possibility

I know what follows is rather off topic but can't help it - every time I come across such nice riddle-like possibilities I go a bit like that:

and that:

lol

meng · Jun 28, 2012

Maybe he's run off with women and taken charge of the household. His kindliness is predisposed toward the unlearned.

rodaki · Jun 28, 2012

. . Uncle Scrooge??

hmm . . and here I was wondering whether Jou Tsou Hwa's publicists skipped it on the book's online version
. . I like the thought of the runaway line though, breaking out of the book

answeredquestions · Jun 28, 2012

Here's his very nice website (a tribute). Thanks Mary F for starting this thread.
http://www.taichifarm.org/Master-Jou-Tsung-Hwa/Master_Jou_Tsung_Hwa.htm

now back to finding the mysterious runaway line!

peterg · Jun 28, 2012

jou tsung hwa

I didn't buy it for the translation which seems to be a regurgitation of Wilhelm.
But it has a lot of interesting commentary and hexagram lore.
And a good chapter on mei hua yi shu - plum blossom ( change writing ? )

On the front cover why does he have trigram woodwind in the northwest and trigram heaven in the southeast ? Wind is SE. Heaven is NW.

mary f · Jun 28, 2012

answeredquestions said:
Here's his very nice website (a tribute). Thanks Mary F for starting this thread.
http://www.taichifarm.org/Master-Jou-Tsung-Hwa/Master_Jou_Tsung_Hwa.htm

now back to finding the mysterious runaway line!

Thanks, Answeredquestions, for the tribute website which I didn't know.

After a couple of years distant minding on work and health, it's a reassuring first thread to be back and I'm glad and thankful to you all.

Mary F

mary f · Jun 28, 2012

peterg said:
I didn't buy it for the translation which seems to be a regurgitation of Wilhelm.
But it has a lot of interesting commentary and hexagram lore.
And a good chapter on mei hua yi shu - plum blossom ( change writing ? )

On the front cover why does he have trigram woodwind in the northwest and trigram heaven in the southeast ? Wind is SE. Heaven is NW.

Agree with you

pocossin · Jun 28, 2012

peterg said:
On the front cover why does he have trigram woodwind in the northwest and trigram heaven in the southeast ? Wind is SE. Heaven is NW.

There are numerous circular arrangements of the trigrams, and they are used for different purposes, so the arrangement on the cover could be deliberate rather than an artist's accident.

mary f · Jun 28, 2012

rodaki said:
. . Uncle Scrooge?? hmm . . and here I was wondering whether Jou Tsou Hwa's publicists skipped it on the book's online version
. . I like the thought of the runaway line though, breaking out of the book

But Dora...do you have an online version, or do you know where I could find one that has the mysterioys 4:2 line? Now I'm itching of curiosity to see what it says.

rodaki · Jun 28, 2012

oh, there's a couple of online versions . . just google it and you'll find them. Yet all of them are of the same 2000 edition that doesn't have 4.2 - hence my comment

peterg · Jun 28, 2012

-/

pocossin said:
There are numerous circular arrangements of the trigrams, and they are used for different purposes, so the arrangement on the cover could be deliberate rather than an artist's accident.

I know only two. Early and later heaven. In my edition ( Tai Chi foundation-yellow cover ) he uses the later heaven with heaven and wind displaced.
In the ed. with the red cover LH is used turned upside down and left to right but with heaven and wind again mlsplaced.

pocossin · Jun 28, 2012

peterg said:
I know only two. Early and later heaven.

You can find a third (the trigrams in the arrangement used in charms for warding off evil) on p.218 of Blofeld. There are many others. Peter -- this one:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/member.php?u=369

has a collection of them and in the past posted examples on the internet, but he has not been active in Clarity for five years.

peterg · Jun 28, 2012

Two family weddings recently in the countryside. Up cropped H.13
Tribal campfires under the sky in the countryside. Gathering of the clan.
When I looked up Google maps to find the church it was due South on the motorway and then a sharp turn off to the Northwest. Very H.13. Fire south. Heaven NW.

4.2 Sounds like the kid is home alone and planning a party.

mary f · Jun 29, 2012

rodaki said:
oh, there's a couple of online versions . . just google it and you'll find them. Yet all of them are of the same 2000 edition that doesn't have 4.2 - hence my comment

Got it.
Thrilling.

rodaki · Jun 29, 2012

you think? I was thinking the thrill would have been if it's not in any book, like Tom said, then it would make for a good story . . then I'd imagine the old master Jou Tsung Hwa saying 'Let's leave that out, give a reason to those who look it up to break away from their usual learning routes, away from the book and what its advice is, out to find their own answers . . find what it means for themselves and see with their own eyes'

But of course that's just me putting my imagination to good use

peterg · Jun 29, 2012

Bagua

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.113006045459320.22107.100002497766476&type=1&l=44e27a0442

mary f · Jun 29, 2012

rodaki said:
you think? I was thinking the thrill would have been if it's not in any book, like Tom said, then it would make for a good story . . then I'd imagine the old master Jou Tsung Hwa saying 'Let's leave that out, give a reason to those who look it up to break away from their usual learning routes, away from the book and what its advice is, out to find their own answers . . find what it means for themselves and see with their own eyes'

But of course that's just me putting my imagination to good use

Up to now I understand none of us found the text for line 2, if I'm not wrong. Your explanation is great.

charly · Jun 29, 2012

rodaki said:
you think? I was thinking the thrill would have been if it's not in any book, like Tom said, then it would make for a good story . . then I'd imagine the old master Jou Tsung Hwa saying 'Let's leave that out, give a reason to those who look it up to break away from their usual learning routes, away from the book and what its advice is, out to find their own answers . . find what it means for themselves and see with their own eyes'

But of course that's just me putting my imagination to good use

Hi, Dora:

I've always believed that the lost line 4.2 was a freudian slip of Master Jou, but maybe, as you imagine, it was a willing omission in order to encourage us to investigate more.

H.4 is an exceptional hexagram that put under question the own practice of divination. I believe that MENG has much to do with ancient ritual practices and the role of children in it.

4.2 is even more strange, W/B made a little literal fanciful translation

The chinese received text of 4.2 says:

包 bao1: to cover / to wrap / to hold / to take charge of / to embrace / [it's said to depict a fetus in the womb]
蒙 meng2: cover / / immature / unlearned / ignorant / foolish // dodder [Waley] /
吉 ji2: fortunate / lucky /

納 na4: to accept / to pay (tax etc.) /
婦 fu4: woman / married woman / wife / [like FU HAO]
吉 ji2: lucky /

子 zi3: son / child / seed / egg / fruit / small thing / [ancient character depicts a phallus]
克 ke4: able / allowed / capable / to overcome / to conquer /
家 jia1: home / family /

Immature , unlearned are traditionally understood WOMEN and CHILDREN, which justify Wilhelm's commentary.

Literally 4.2 says:

TO HOLD [or TO HOST] UNLEARNED: LUCKY.

TO ACCEPT WIFE [or TO PAY WOMEN]: LUCKY.

[A] SON CONQUERS FAMILY

But the fact is that 納婦 na4fu4 means TO WED / TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. These two characters provoke not only associations with illegal intercourse, even maybe with prostitution, sacred marriage and the like. It also puts the question wether it's more worthy to get a woman by mariage (ritually correct) or by paying for her (remember Hesiod's «Works And Days»).

Did Master Jou or something else forget 4.2 line or was the own Master that preferred not tospeak about it?

There is, maybe, a key: the master used to wear loafers (moccasins).

All the best,

Charly

rodaki · Jun 30, 2012

Mary yes, you got it right, neither of us have found the actual line as written by Jou Tsung Hwa and thanks for the vote of confidence

hi Charly, here's how I visualize the space of hx4 (also with some help from Wing's commentary on it)

In the land of the Vast Unknown, the hero/ine has only made one step and has left one dark line behind (remember hx3? There we stood on the first line trying, not to reach the top, the 6th line, but to just make a step, and to make it right - oh how far that landing on the 5th seemed, nowhere to back up to or draw knowledge, one single step yet a whole adventure!
Well, now that step has been taken and left behind, now the hero/ine stands on the second line. Now up ahead is not just any old effort, now we want to reach the other shore of mastery .. up ahead, three full dark lines, the heart of the Vast Unknown, be it learning the new schoolyard, the rules of mathematical equations, a new chapter in the job front (or is this the dark king size bed that stands between the hero/ine and their Other? - fill in the blanks according to taste and mood of the moment :mischief:

)

So that's gotta be the space of 4.2: Embracing the unknown is good, engaging(/coupling) with darkness is good, the young (the young at heart/spirit included) and bold find themselves at home?

. . just make sure to keep your wits about you for those first signs of things falling apart - you know, like bed legs breaking,

charly · Jul 2, 2012

rodaki said:
...
So that's gotta be the space of 4.2: Embracing the unknown is good, engaging(/coupling) with darkness is good, the young (the young at heart/spirit included) and bold find themselves at home?

. . just make sure to keep your wits about you for those first signs of things falling apart - you know, like bed legs breaking,

Dear Dora:

One of the main concerns of a diviner is not to lose the head. Most of the ancient chinese diviners ended behaded. Kings and emperors had whim for cutting off heads.

Source: http://darthvader.pixnet.net/album/photo/139038793

That worry is present in the intriguing lines neighboring with the 4.2 lost line:

4.1, anong another things, says 利用刑人. It was translated by Legge as «advantageous to use punishment» while it´s clear that it says PROFITABLE WITH PUNISHED MAN. (1)(2)

Not clear who or what is the Punished Man, maybe a mature man acostumed to pass bad experiences, maybe also an euphemism for the male member.

4.3 SAYS: 勿用娶女；見金夫，不有躬，无攸利。That Legge translated : «one should not marry a woman whose emblem it might be, for that, when she sees a man of wealth, she will not keep her person from him, and in no wise will advantage come from her».

It almost literally says: NOT WITH A MARRIED WOMAN. VISIBLY [THE] GOLDEN HUSBAND WOULD HAVE NO BODY. NOT VERY PROFITABLE.

The Golden Husband is no other than the Punished Man. Say, with an experienced (married) woman, to hold the principle of male superiority is harder than with a virgin.

Of course, witn a married woman, if she is not your wife, it´s less respectable and with a virgin is easy to lose the head.

This is the lower trigram RIVER / MOVING WATERS, where both yin lines have the headlessness worry, the yang middle line has not it. For avoiding to lose your head, mantain the center.

Maybe we must return to Wilhelm/Baynes, who said that only «INNER STRENGHT with OUTER RESERVE enables one to take», speaking of course in reference to the trigrams MOVING WATERS (the deepest) and MOUNT (keeping stiff), but that´s another story.

Please, don´t take my words seriously, although I speak of serious matters.

All the best,

Charly

____________________________________
(1)
• 用 to use, to apply / using , applying can also be translated as WITH.
• 刑人 criminal to be executed / [MORITURI] /[In another context it was traslated by Legge as TO PUNISH A MAN]
••• 刑 xíng: punishment / penalty / torture / corporal punishment /
•••人 rén man / person / people

(2) Legge is quoted from Sturgeon´s Chinese Text Project.
Ch.

rodaki · Jul 3, 2012

Charly, what's with all the morbid talk of beheadings and punishment? Although it has been eerily synchronous with some of my most recent readings (read psychoanalysis and female nature, Lacan, castration fear etc etc.) . . but other than that, I can't tell how it all plays part in 4.2 . .

anyways, happy July and full moon to everyone!

pocossin · Jul 6, 2012

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3791
Earlier discussion of Jou

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/eh.pdf
Harmen on Jou's source

On p.17 Harmen gives page 304 (?) from the Duanyi Tianji. He says that item a. identifies the trigrams. Does anyone know which trigrams these are? And why do these characters for trigrams differ from the characters given here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching

The picture associated with the hexagram of page 304 isn't in Jou's book -- or I missed it.

pocossin · Jul 6, 2012

Ok, going by item c. in Harmen's pdf, the hexagram is 16. The picture for hexagram 16 in the Duanyi Tianji appears to be a woman with a deer and a horse. A deer and a horse also occur in Jou's hexagram 16 picture (p.184), but the pictures are not the same. Apparently there are multiple versions of these symbolic hexagram pictures.

noxlux · Jul 22, 2012

I like Hwa's book immensly. It is personal, as I believe your Yi should be. - What is the point of text you do not connect to personal experience?

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