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De-mythologizing and De-mystifying the I Ching

44bob123

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I want to suggest that the Zhouyi needs to be released from accumulated extraneous layers of philosophy in order to see how it really works. Yin-yang, Taoism and Neo-Confucianism are not part of the original Zhouyi. Nor are the modern interpretations which generate endless new hexagrams. Such flights of fancy are unfounded and only serve to bore and obfuscate the reader. If you feel drawn to those Chinese philosophies, then other books will provide a richer understanding. I do not see them as necessary for a “reading”, and I was pleasantly surprised to find a number of I Chings that were , in fact, Zhouyis – deliberately omitting any Confucian commentary as unnecessary.
The consultation process is quite simple:
• A problem is acknowledged which has no immediate solution.
• The Zhouyi is consulted and provides words and phrases.
• The individual links the reading to the problem and wrestles to obtain a new understanding.
• The problem is solved.
Essentially the ambiguous words, applied to the situation, provide an opportunity for creative thinking. The Zhouyi doesn’t give you the answer, it’s not some sage resident in the book, there is no “dialogue” with the book or spirits in the book. You and your brain do all the work to find a resolution. A psychological concept that is useful here is cognitive dissonance. It explains why the brain is motivated to reconcile conflicting ideas, concepts or elements. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
While searching the Web, I found this article by John Malouff, Ph.D., J.D. “Over Fifty Problem Solving Strategies Explained”. It was interesting to note that many of the strategies parallel how the Zhouyi works. (http://www.une.edu.au/bcss/psychology/john-malouff/problem-solving.php).
There are many other sites on the Internet that deal with problem solving / creativity / insight. If you have an unresolved problem you could try out some of the strategies suggested, e.g. brainstorming and Lateral Thinking. You might find that they can work better than the Zhouyi, or maybe not. You have the choice of how you solve your problems, and there are many, many alternatives to the Zhouyi.
I’ve taken this well known understanding of “Insight” from Wikipedia:
Creative insights and illuminations may be explained by a process consisting of 5 stages:

(i) Preparation (preparatory work on a problem that focuses the individual's mind on the problem and explores the problem's dimensions),

(ii) Incubation (where the problem is internalized into the unconscious mind and nothing appears externally to be happening). This would be the stage where the Zhouyi information is placed in the unconscious and interacts with elements of the problem already internalized. (My insertion).

(iii) Intimation (the creative person gets a "feeling" that a solution is on its way),

(iv) Illumination or insight (where the creative idea bursts forth from its preconscious processing into
conscious awareness); and

(v) Verification (where the idea is consciously verified, elaborated, and then applied).

One doesn’t have to resort to out-dated mythic explanations or philosophies to understand how the Zhouyi helps in generating solutions to problems. I suspect that most who consult the I Ching don’t bother with the oriental philosophy anyway. The Zhouyi is only one tool to solve problems and it isn’t necessarily always the best.

As a personal example I used Nigel Richmond’s Zhouyi text, actually titled “the I Ching oracle”. Selected Hex 33. The word “withdraw” was all that was necessary to address three problems. A surprisingly simple process. No endlessly deriving nuclear, hidden or other superfluous hexagrams. (Karcher being one of the worst, if not the worst, exponents of this practice).

Conclusion:
• The Zhouyi and I Ching are not magical, mystical or inhabited by some spiritual being. If you believe this you need to check out the psychology of “projection” and anthropomorphism.
• The Zhouyi and I Ching are books of words.
• A reading is a specific selection from those words.
• To act as a catalyst the words need to be ambiguous with a rich variety of meanings.
• The words, internalized by the querent, allow a different perspective on the problem.
• Such thinking, “outside the box”, is what results in the solution.
• It is the individual NOT the book that solves the problem. Any creative dialogue is in your own head.
• There are many other divinatory systems. The Zhouyi can claim no superiority over them.
• There are many creative problem solving techniques. The Zhouyi can claim no superiority over them.
• Synchronicity is a belief with no objective reality. It doesn’t describe how the Zhouyi actually works.

Corollaries

• Any version of the Zhouyi is as good as any other.
• An English thesaurus can help to open up the meaning of a text.
• Every reading is unique to you and your situation. It cannot be compared to the same reading received by someone else. They are incomparable–The individuals and circumstances are totally different.
• You cannot step into the same river twice. Every hexagram you receive is totally new and only appropriate to the situation that required it.
• If a problem is solved you should congratulate yourself, not the Zhouyi.
• To constantly consult the Zhouyi may indicate a lack of self-confidence as, in general, it tends to be consulted only on major issues.
• To generate endless hexagrams and commentaries from the original hexagram adds to the problem not to the solution.
• Those who are very intuitive are unlikely to resort to the Zhouyi.

W S Boardman seems to be suggesting a similar position to the one I have sketched:
The I Ching expands possibilities, opens options, exposes psychological blind-spots and aids lateral thinking. It requires one to use one’s critical faculties (unlike fortune-tellers). It does not force itself upon one but presents its insights always with an implicit “Does this make sense to you?” It leaves the reader to draw conclusions: to accept or ignore its counsels. (The Pocket I Ching. p.viii). The rest of his introduction is worth reading for its common sense.

The paper by Harmen Mesker also advocates some similar ideas:
http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipit...Laws-of-Proper-Yijing-Practice-Explained.html


Appendix: To create your own “experimental oracle”.

1. Select a book–encyclopaedia, bible, fiction, poetry, etc. (Haiku seem a promising source).
2. Open at random and, using a pin, select a sentence or phrase.
3. Do this 64 times and allocate each text with a number.
4. If you need them, judgements for lines can be generated in the same way.
5. When you next need to consult the I Ching generate a hexagram as you normally would, but this time read the text from your “oracle”.
6. Apply the text to the problem and see if solutions are generated.
7. Did it help? Was it pertinent? Did you struggle to make any sense or was it crystal clear?
8. Try this more than once and you’ll find it works. You are only facilitating the natural creativity of your own brain.
9. Try deriving your texts from different types of book. Does it make any difference?
10. Try using pictures selected at random rather than text. (A bit like using the Tarot).
11. Have fun. Don’t be serious.
 
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44bob123

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Cultural misperceptions of the I Ching.

• The I Ching (The Book of Changes) is one of the most ancient writings in world literature.
George Hulskramer “I Ching in plain English”

• I can tell you that consulting THE BOOK is like being able to ask advice from a very powerful, very wise, yet extremely tolerant and easygoing friend or teacher...There is something magical about this ancient Book of Changes.
Peter Crisp “The little book of Changes”.

• Although it comes disguised (?) as a book, it is really a voice in a conversation, and you can talk with it (or with what speaks through it) as you would with a wise friend or mentor.
Hilary Barrett “I Ching walking your path, creating your future”

• What the I Ching is, is a Third Voice. You may feel this Third Voice is the Voice of Nature, of the Tao, even of the Divine.
Martin Palmer “I Ching: the shamanic oracle of change.”

• It (the I Ching)shows the symbols (xiang) and the spirits (shen) through which all transformation occur.
Stephen Karcher: “Total I Ching”.

• If the oracle is treated like a party game it will give party game answers. The first step is to be respectful, which is why a ritual formality can be helpful.
Tom Riseman “Understanding the I Ching”.

Plenty of similar quotes could be drawn from the myriad of I Ching books on sale. Especially at the popular / New Age end of the market there is a heavy emphasis on the book’s antiquity, (old equating with venerable), its unsurpassed wisdom, (it always gives you what you need, not what you want), and its response to the reader (indicating some sort of living spirit or presence).

It is understandable that authors need to establish “street cred” for their book in order to achieve sales. Unfortunately, apart from the more academic books, these others continue to promote (1) antiquity and (2) the I Ching as wisdom personified. This just serves to perpetuate the current culture of the I Ching with its misplaced adulation and “mystical” awe.

As I have made clear in my previous article, the Zhouyi is no such thing. To a casual observer it would be considered an ancient book, with difficult texts. Or, should there be extensive commentaries, as a book giving pages of advice. In reality it is a problem solving tool, one amongst hundreds available just on the Internet.

What it certainly is, is not an entity. It is not alive and so cannot care about the reader. The meaning in the book comes from the individual wrestling with the text vis à vis the problematic situation. It certainly is a comforting thought that the book forms a partnership with us. It makes our problems seem more easily manageable. In a materialist world with its greed and pain we can do with as many friends as possible. However it is psychological projection and wish-fulfilment that turns the I Ching into that sort of sage.

Having described it as a problem-solving tool, this time I’ve listed some parallels between the Zhouyi and creative problem solving techniques, lifted from the Internet:

1. Randomness is a great asset in creativity. Brainstorming is one excellent way of doing this. Unfortunately even in the open-ended context of a brainstorm session there are some ideas that you simply won't come up with. They're just too weird, your internal censor deletes them before you even become conscious of them.
That's where randomness comes in. Generating ideas at random turns off the censor totally. Random creativity is of most use either when you're just starting a project or when you're completely stuck and even brainstorming has failed to produce an answer.
The simplest way of creating randomly is to take a large number of file cards. On each one write a word or phrase associated with the problem (if you're stuck) or the general project domain (if you're just starting). Throw in a few "jokers", words or phrases with no immediate connection with the subject yet which have the potential to be interesting. When selecting the contents of the cards, try not to be too specific. You want flexibility, even ambiguity.


2. Use cards from a shuffled "idea" deck. (N.B. I Ching cards? My insert).
The idea is simple: select a card from a shuffled deck, and act as though whatever the card says is directly relevant to your current problem.
Some favourites:
Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies (designed for musicians and artists, but works for anything.)
Roger von Oech's original Creative Whack Pack and Innovative Whack Pack.
The IDEO Method Cards



3. Random Words: When to use it

Use it to stimulate open and divergent thinking and seek creative new ideas.
Use it to re-ignite creative thinking when you are running out of ideas.
Use it to get people out of a rut when their thinking is still rather conventional.
Good random words are (a) evocative and (b) nothing to do with the problem being considered. Ambiguity also helps. Nouns are usually best, but verbs and adjectives can also be used effectively.


4. Randomly introduce things from completely unrelated domains
If you aggregate home improvement stories, for example, have a place where you insert a semi-random--but high quality--post from a non-home-improvement field.

5. In problem-solving contexts, the random-word creativity technique is perhaps the simplest method. A person confronted with a problem is presented with a randomly generated word, in the hopes of a solution arising from any associations between the word and the problem. A random image, sound, or article can be used instead of a random word as a kind of creativity goad or provocation.
A list of some other well-known techniques for Creative Thinking:
Collectively, there are several hundred techniques published in books. Techniques are like tools in a workshop, with different tools for different parts of the creative process. For example, there are techniques for defining a problem, exploring attributes of a problem, generating alternatives, visual explorations, metaphors, analogies, and evaluating and implementing ideas. Here is a small selection of techniques:
• Random Input
• Problem Reversal
• Ask Questions
• Applied Imagination - Question Summary
• Lateral Thinking
• Six Thinking Hats
• The Discontinuity Principle
• Checklists
• Brainstorming
• Forced Relationships/Analogy
• Attribute Listing
• Morphological Analysis
• Imitation
• Mindmapping
• Storyboarding
• Synectics
• Metaphorical thinking
• Lotus Blossum Technique
• In the realm of the senses
• Use of drawing (from Robert McKim's Experiences in Visual Thinking
• IdeaToons (by Michael Michalko)
• NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) Techniques
• Assumption Smashing
• DO IT! method of Roger Olsen
• LARC Method
• Unconscious Problem Solving (mentioned by Margaret J Pearson. “The Original I Ching”.)
• The TRIZ method of Semyon D. Savransky
• Fuzzy Thinking
• Some further examples of creativity techniques and guidelines linked with historical examples.
(The individual links do not work so here is the site: http://members.optusnet.com.au/charles57/Creative/Techniques).

Given all my recent research and ponderings, I must confess to a sense of loss now that I have reached the conclusion the I Ching is no paragon of wisdom. I suppose I had unconsciously absorbed all the current “hype” about the book, and now having de-mystified it, I felt bereft – Rather like the child who eventually comes to acknowledge there is no Santa Claus, but gifts come from human intermediaries. Perhaps part of maturing is having one’s illusions shattered?
Interestingly African bone throwing divination has been seen as a form of creativity for some years. I have a paper from the Origins Centre in South Africa. “African Divination Systems as Technologies for Creative Thinking”. 05/02/07. Unfortunately is doesn’t seem to be available anymore.
Also two articles by Andreas Gerolemou, again about divination as creativity:
http://issuu.com/umeme/docs/apprenticeguide/2?mode=a_p
 
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pocossin

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I think you have missed a few things, Bob. Among your 97 posts I found only two to Shared Readings.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=9215
how is diagnosis like divination? (also an introduction)

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=9218
affects of antidepressant vs. healing...should i continue the drug?

In neither did you address the casting and concern of the querent, although you gave prudential advice. This is important. If you would dive in and attempt to help your fellow human beings through divination, you would learn by direct experience how the I Ching works. Learning divination is like learning to ride a bicycle. Jump on and begin pedaling. Take your falls. Soon you will acquire a sense of balance and a mastery of the bicycle. You will have whole-body knowledge rather than just conceptual knowledge. If you take this leap into the dark, all of your questions about divination would be answered. There is no other way to understand.
 
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sergio

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BoBB, I could not agree more with you in demystifying the I Ching but people seem to want to explain it in as many ways as they can and one of them is by providing it with a divine voice or a spirit or whatever way the want to call it. And it is fine for them. In the end it is about accepting it for what it is: a book of wisdom.
On the other hand, to paraphrase the Tao Te Ching, the book that can be explained is not the book and all attempts at explaining it are equally futile. As Tom wonderfully says,is an experiential knowledge that is required, with failures and success all mixed in with bafflement and sheer awkwardness until it becomes "whole body knowledge". I could not have said any better than that.
Sergio
 
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During my albeit short experimentation with the I-ching system, most of my reading have been uncannily appropriate (the content in relation to my question) and likewise, sometimes, almost statistically impossible; given the many hexagrams (Receiving the same hexagram in connection with another aspect of the same questions, for example).

Synchronicities are very real, however hard they may be to currently "prove" scientifically.

The spiritual or meta-physical reality, presently appears difficult to quantify and measure; such methods may actually be rather crude and limiting in this regard, this does not, however, make planes beyond earthly materiality any less real, in truth, for those of us with experience of the latter, they may in-fact seem and feel far more "real" than this constipated realm.

For someone to suggest that the Iching is magic-less, exposes a study saturated in irreverence and, or naive, childish, unrefined, skepticism.

Reality is magical for those who have eyes to see :)
 

gene

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I agree with "he who tries..." Those who say there is no mysticism in the I Ching, no spirit behind it, do not have a clue what this is all about. I'm sorry to put it in such blunt terms, but it is true. And I have had a lot of trouble with this site because people refuse to see beyond the obvious. Those who know, know. Those who do not should admit their lack of knowledge and listen. "If the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch."

We need to look no further than the tao teh ching to understand there is a mystery. It says, according to one translation, but regardless, it captures the essence, "Freed from desire, one can see the hidden mystery. By having desire, one can only see what is visibly real."

I have no doubt that this post will for the most part fall on deaf ears. Only those who are ready to see the mystery can see the mystery. The others sooner or later will fail in their attempts to make sense of the meaning which is by definition..."a mystery."

Gene
 
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We are truly blessed, if the so called Kaliyuga epoch may be over, collective perception, for the most part, at this time, appears upside-down.

Are we truly arguing, on an iching forum, whether spirit may be found within the I ching?

Spirit can be found in a rock or bird, spirit is, in, every-thing.

Please :)
 

sergio

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Dear He who tries to remember and Gene:
I guess we are and why shouldn't we? You have your opinion and somebody else is entitled to have theirs. Nothing is probed 100 % . I am still waiting for irrefutable proof of divine intervention in the I Ching. I am not talking about personal conviction, just plain old proof.If it is only a matter of conviction fine with me to each their own but don't try to imposer it on others or dismiss other;s point of views derisively with such remarks as " are we really challenging" or assuming everybody else who does not share the same view " does not really get it".
Sergio
 

gene

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Sergio

I understand where you are coming from, but my remarks will remain the same. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of knowing or not knowing. Beyond this, I have no inclination to continue to debate this matter. It is a waste of time. But thanks for pointing out your point of view anyway. I am not totally adverse to it. Some of this is a matter of perception about what is spiritual and what is not, so that we could be both actually saying the same thing. I am aware of all these things.

Gene
 
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The difference seems to be:

I would never, ever, have considered visiting a forum such as this, prior to seeing, knowing, spirit.

I would have considered this a ridiculous, useless, new age, garbage, place.

Knowing, seeing, feeling, spirit trumps all mundane sources of evidence.

Systems such as the I ching precisely expose the very real limitations of reductionist scientific methodologies.

All the best.
 

bradford

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I understand where you are coming from, but my remarks will remain the same. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of knowing or not knowing. Beyond this, I have no inclination to continue to debate this matter. It is a waste of time. But thanks for pointing out your point of view anyway. I am not totally adverse to it. Some of this is a matter of perception about what is spiritual and what is not, so that we could be both actually saying the same thing. I am aware of all these things.
Gene

Gene, I'm surprised you're even showing your face after the "end of the world" that you were spewing so much "spiritual" crap about. Do you really think anybody takes your ideas seriously?
 

44bob123

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In my original thoughts about the I Ching I was partly attempting to make it "secular" for those who find religious or spiritual references old fashioned/inappropriate/mis-guided.
I was attempting to delineate a base line for discussion. You have a problem and then you fill your brain with creative material, and your brain comes up with a solution! This is the simplest paradigm for understanding the divination process. It can turn out to be uncanny and/or spot on. But that feeling of amazement doesn't require belief in an entity in the book. I'm often amazed at coincidences, but they are a regular part of life.

I also subscribe to Occam's razor: the simplest explanation usually turns out to be right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
I'm also becoming rather iconoclastic. There's too much sloppy thinking about, from conspiracy theories to alien abductions,to New Age "discoveries".
 
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bradford

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44bob-
I'm a little surprised that you've gone so far into this without any mention of pareidolia or apophenia.
I too have a secular approach. I do, however, disagree that the version of the Zhouyi doensn't matter. Yi divination is somewhat different from simple bibliomancy. Projection or not, there is a meaningful field here onto which projections are made. To assert that it's pure projection is analogous to the tabula rasa argument that rejected any thought of human nature and gave us pure cultural relativism and deconstructionism to unlearn.
 

anemos

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Some time ago I encounter an article regarding the doom day and the author used the words : catastrophe, apocalypse, apoktastasis . I was curious to see what those words mean for people don’t speak the Greek language. So many meanings, theories , and –isms attached.

What does catastrophe means ? a overturn , a deconstruction ; Apocalypse :uncovering something hidden ; apokatastasis: renewal, reconstitution . Free of those gloomy-doomy associations are also simple words. We use it in our everyday life here to express simple things. We have construct an ugly building, its not good , a shedding is needed to see what its has been burred under it and a new one needs to be reconstruct. Its what most of the people talk about, using different language. I hear it from politicians; I hear it from simple people.

What we experience in my country its not funny. Its serious, ugly, inhumane, brutal and I known we are the only ones.

I grew up with myths. Myth doesn't means something fake . That word has another meaning.

(Rant over)
 
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The simplest is explanation is that spirit is, in, every-thing, wherefore spirit may be found within the Iching.

Occam's razor is a wonderful tool.
 

meng

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My brother calls me a desert mystic. I call me a desert mystified. I have no idea what the IC is, other than a book and a means to stir up parts of us that lie otherwise dormant.

Every time I've asked the question that Bob started this thread with, every time I challenge the idea of actual synchronicity vs catching coincidences as they occur, and attaching or associating a meaning to it, I wind up laughing at myself not long after for ever doubting that something beyond the range of normal perception of reality is occuring, because of the recognized truth of the matter, contained within the following IC readings.

I have ideas that cross over into quantum theory, actually the most basic of those ideas appear evident to me by now. But it's another one of those things that a person gets called crazy for, especially if I'm called out to prove the ideas in either classic science or quantum theory. I'm not a priest nor a scientist, and I am as mystified by the IC, now, as I was during my first reading some 40 years ago. Not that it doesn't flood my mind with possibilities to sort through, that I'm able to re-cognize well enough. One doesn't need an IC to be able to do that. IC is a highly refined system of particles taken from its wave. Those who can tune in to its frequency can hear it, and naturally they HAVE to give it a proper name. The scholars need something to debate over, so it's all about names and definitions. Anyone else doesn't know what they're talking about. Right.

For me, the idea is to take the entirely general and allow the decoded specific message to obviously appear. I'll admit, it's hard to not project my (unconscious) intelligence into a book with every conceivable variable within it and coming away with an answer, without also projecting my superego into the book and system and perceiving it as some separate entity. I leave the possibility open, but deep inside, I believe that all we're doing is consciously realizing what we already know unconsciously, with help from, whatever name you feel compelled to give it.

“If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's.” Joseph Campbell
 

44bob123

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Hi Bradford, I must admit I have never come across those terms before. They are grist to the mill, so to speak. The use of a text by a querent doesn't involve projection to my mind. I simply see it as one's brain churning over the reading until the Eureka moment arrives. I'm happy to call it creative thinking, but by this I do not mean ego analytical thinking. This creativity comes from what we usually call the unconscious as we don't have a clearer understanding of our minds.

I did use the word "projection", but I was focussing on the I Ching as a "comfort blanket" against the materialistic environment we exist in. Someone once said life is nasty, brutish and short. It still is even if we use the I Ching. The I Ching is a tool not a narcotic!

I also agree that some Zhouyi readings are indeed better than others in facilitating creativity.
 

44bob123

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The simplest is explanation is that spirit is, in, every-thing, wherefore spirit may be found within the Iching.

Occam's razor is a wonderful tool

Sorry to burst the bubble but Occam's razor will insist that everything that exists just exists. To add an additional ingredient like "spirit" is superfluous. It adds nothing to the equation. The I Ching works, period. Why is there a need to inject spirits into it?

I wonder if a spirtless I Ching lacks mystery or credibility or glamour?
 
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Everything exists; a simple cause of spirit. Nothing just is, no-thing is nothing; and some-thing is.

The simplest explanation is that there is some-thing. Until a simpler explanation may be proposed, even in relation to an essentially meaningless word game, as compared to the infinitely powerful force of direct experience of spirit, in which all may maintain what they please, the simplest explanation must be a force seen and felt'; re-cognized, by man since primordial history; a force which may be understood as Spirit.

Maintaining that one does not know, or proposing new questions, is neither an explanation nor a simple explanation.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble :) William of Ockham was not a naive, spiritually inexperienced, atheist.

In fact, William of Ockham maintained, as I do, that Spirit or God, is an ontological necessity.
 
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li chien

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So I just asked the question of the Yi "is there more to the Yi than asking a question and getting an answer?"... and the answer for me was hex 57.4 >44.

On demystifying divination I feel if we strip out a divination it's mythology or mysticism and just leave it as a functional machine of question resolution we take out fundamental elements that serve to facilitate our engaging the unconscious and elements that perhaps bring it into life and wholeness.

Also I don't believe that the mythology is an artifice to keep the process mystical but traditionally mythology is the living quality of the idea. The original story gives the connection to the underlying principle and that the querent provides context that is then synthesised by the whole life of the diviner.

That this process takes place in both the light of the mind and the dark of the soul wherever both those things reside and that this takes place not only in the physical mind but in the whole of the diviner, in the gut, in the heart, in the eyes and ears and and through the feet into the earth we stand on and that the question resonates throughout the whole of our being before coming back to the mind so it can be brought into light or consciousness again transformed by its experience of the whole.

Also that asking questions is part of learning and that we learn to help heal the mind and also we live ritually to help heal the body and that divination is a process that acts on both because it is fundamentally a holistic approach.

Learning and healing are issues of wholeness and by engaging in either we ultimately work with the whole.

Mysticism helps cloak the process from the mind so that the beneficial changes can be wrought in the dark. It has only been relatively recently that we have separated learning from healing.

For me divination isn't just about answering a question or predetermining outcomes. It is engaging in a whole process that is as much about the connection for the diviner and divine (whatever that is for the individual though I always felt the Sufis said it best when they refer to it as that about which naught can be said) as it is about connecting the querent and the answer.

For me it is always about all the elements coming together in a space at a point in time. The quality of all those elements, the appropriateness of the time and the question, the attitude in asking it, the intentions of all the parties contribute to determine the experience's value and luminosity. Whether it feels numinous or not can be a signifier of its depth and value.

By us engaging in more traditional and better trialled divining processes and sharing in those same stories or mythology we keep the discourse alive, tested and true to essence.

As to what animates the container and whether there is spirit or soul and what the nature of that spirit and soul are questions that haven't been answered in so many thousands of years of asking or divining so may well not get solved within the course of this thread but thankfully unknowing isn't something that gets in the way of learning, quite the opposite IME. Nor does it hamper the efficacy of divination which for me is and always has been facilitating a process fundamentally of healing and moving towards wholeness... but that's just how it works for me.

As an issue of timeliness it also now might not be an ideal time to be attempting to be demystify anything as we head from Black Dragon into a Black Snake year. Issues of spirit and soul may well stay submerged a little longer.

I usually live with a question for quite a few days because I find the themes often wash well past the bounds of the question into the rest of life. I can now go off and learn about hex 57.4>44 even though its got a troubling amount if 4s in it :). Many thanks Bob for sparking some more learning... it is always much needed.

Graham
 
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44bob123

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I believe that all we're doing is consciously realizing what we already know unconsciously, with help from, whatever name you feel compelled to give it.

Meng, I think you summarise it quite succinctly. I think the "reading" is the catalyst which sets the process in motion. I've been re-reading one of de Bono's books as well as Buzan's on mind mapping. They both extol the virtues and powers of our minds. I have no qualms in seeing our "bio-computer" as able to do the most astounding things, including making sense of a cryptic I Ching text.

Thanks for your input Li Chien. You cover some very important ground. I'm coming down with the flu so I must apologise for not responding timeously.
 
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meng

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Meng, I think you summarise it quite succinctly. I think the "reading" is the catalyst which sets the process in motion. I've been re-reading one of de Bono's books as well as Buzan's on mind mapping. They both extol the virtues and powers of our minds. I have no qualms in seeing our "bio-computer" as able to do the most astounding things, including making sense of a cryptic I Ching text.

Bob, half of me nods in agreement, but the other half can't deny such perfect answers. I have a fairly nimble mind, but I can't make this stuff up, not this often for this long. This is the part which tends to shatter the plasticity of our mind to problem solve as being the total answer.

This, I think is very much in Lofting's territory, and the only thing I could never pin him down to answering had to do with the uncanny timing of these "radom" answers. He'd assert, all hexagrams are happening simultaneously, and I could see the logic of that. The argument was, yes, but there is still a best answer: the one you receive.

I think my statement, which you agree with, may have a different understanding or meaning for the word, unconscious. I'm meaning it in the traditional Jungian sense of Collective Unconscious, not only that which is going on with our own individual physical brain. I mean Omni-consciousness. Some would and could call that God.
 

44bob123

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I think my statement, which you agree with, may have a different understanding or meaning for the word, unconscious.

Even whilst writing my reply I thought I might have not fully understood your comment. These days I no longer separate the unconscious into personal U/C, collective U/C and higher(?) U/C. We rarely find out what goes on "down there", so sub-divisions seem unnecessary unless, of course, you insist on postulating some divine doorway. I just admit I don't know.

I bought a cheap copy of Christopher Markert's book: "The I Ching- the No. 1 Success Formula". In chapter 6, where he discusses how the I Ching works, his ideas are paralleled to those in my opening post. A bit of a coincidence or what! However on the biroco site is the following commentary.

Despite the trashy title, the overall judgments are quite well written and the old Chinese illustrations charming. The author has some dubious views on how the I Ching 'works', believing that it doesn't matter which hexagram you receive, that any one will do. He claims to have proved the theory by deliberately giving friends the wrong readings. All this is evidence of is improper use.
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/survey.htm

My position is very similar to Markert's. I do not see why his actions are criticised as "improper use". That comment only makes sense if you view the I Ching with awe and reverence?

I think the conflict is a result of different I Ching cultures. If an individual starts his I Ching career using Markert, he will see the I Ching in a creative problem solving perspective. However if he starts off using Wilhelm he will, unconsciously, absorb the mythic/synchronistic model. He is also likely to read further books with the same outlook which will reinforce that particular I Ching culture.

The question is, if Markert was wrong to give incorrect readings, how can we know that the "correct" readings would have been better/more productive? In other words that there is only one hexagram that will fit that person, in that situation, at that time?

From my point of view, no matter about the what and how of divination, does the answer feel right and, in modern jargon, is it fit for purpose?
 
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pocossin

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I do not see why his actions are criticised as "improper use".

Such deception poisons the atmosphere of divination. If you aren't honest with others, you won't be honest with yourself.
 

anemos

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Despite the trashy title, the overall judgments are quite well written and the old Chinese illustrations charming. The author has some dubious views on how the I Ching 'works', believing that it doesn't matter which hexagram you receive, that any one will do. He claims to have proved the theory by deliberately giving friends the wrong readings. All this is evidence of is improper use.

Does he provides some examples of this experiment, Bob ? If yes, is it possible to share a couple here and his premises as well .

Thanks in advance
 

meng

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In other words that there is only one hexagram that will fit that person, in that situation, at that time?

Theoretically, there could be infinite possibilities that fit the situation with that person, at that time. There could also be one which fits best.
 

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Divination's this weird game we play with randomness . . if we take an answer to be 'perfect' then it stops existing as a game with randomness and becomes part of a 'divine plan' . . Personally, I'm reluctant to fully, absolutely believe in either of the two

I think that I'm with you on this one Bob, there could be any number of answers fitting a situation. Yet I feel that the answer we actually receive becomes 'perfect' because it co-creates reality and, as such, it creates an irreplaceable and unique fit. One thing that noone mentions, though, is that an answer does not complete the process of divination and doesn't stand on its own; it's merely another piece of a puzzle, which becomes complete with interpreting : imo, that's where the soul, the truth of divination resides . .
 

meng

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Bob, I enjoy putting the how does it work, what is REALLY happening when we do a reading? thing through whatever tests we can. I've never dismissed either of the main possibilities as not being plausible.

Speaking strictly from my world view: any idea of me and thou is a fabrication, yet at the same time perfectly natural in a field of duality. Loss of unity brings need for identity, creating duality. Saying it all comes from me either unites with nature or departs from nature.
 

meng

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Co-creates, possibly re-invents reality. What we see is not the tree but a reconstruction of the tree. I like it, but it also creates funny images. One is of the tail wagging the dog. Another is knitting a person to fit a sweater. Gosh, if this is what we're really doing, we need help, or maybe just a good tailor.
 

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