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Thread: Hate and suspicion in 55.2

  1. #1
    sooo Guest

    Default Hate and suspicion in 55.2

    Every time I receive 55.2 I am put off by the words translated as "hate and suspicion". I don't recall a time when either hate or suspicion entered the situation, the most recent being yesterday, before going to meet a fellow guitar player to do a trade of guitars, which we both seem very pleased about (auspicious). A really nice guy with whom I immediately hit it off well with. More appropriate words would have been anxiety and apprehension, as well as enthusiasm and hopefulness. Trust was not a factor, only pragmatic agreement of the mutual value of the exchange.

  2. #2
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    More appropriate words would have been anxiety and apprehension
    ,

    These are the very words other translators have used.



    Bradford says 'suspicion and anxiety'.

    Hilary says 'doubts and anxieties'.

    'Feng is screened off.
    At midday seeing the Dipper.
    Going on gains doubts and anxieties.
    With truth and confidence coming to expression,
    Good Fortune.'
    Your experience fits that doesn't it ?

    I think also one meets it in the other, the other is doubtful about you also....in anycase it seems in order to move forward one has to meet these doubts and anxieties about the other before being able to reach the 'truth and confidence'. So it's not automatic trust. So maybe both he and you had these doubts, naturally, in a deal with a stranger one won't be sure how he is going to play. Possibilities being he might sell for more than it's worth or with hidden defects etc etc and from his side his anxieties would be he gets a fair price. In this mini scenario you describe all these doubts are gotten through probably in a micro second flash...so it didn't take long to get to the truth and confidence.

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  4. #3
    sooo Guest

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    Yes, I referred to Brad's yesterday as well and agree more with how it was in reality, although even the word 'suspicion' can easily project the wrong idea for what is simply not yet known, something also that can easily be interpreted as a negative personal connotation, which was not present in our communication. Anxiety, a bit, apprehension, yes, but even more than these were excitement and enthusiasm. So why this negativity in this line, was my point. And it wasn't just yesterday; I've found this to consistently be the case every time I receive this line. I mean, we don't read "T'was the night before Christmas, and all the children were full of hate an suspicion.." Yet, it did feel a bit like Christmas, a childlike excitement, wondering what we'll find under the tree in those nicely wrapped boxes. What will that Big Dipper be like? (As an aside, there actually are Strat pickups called Big Dippers, designed for John Mayer.)

    I do not yet have Hilary's book. I think her translation comes much closer to the actual experience. Even that it was midday, 12 noon precisely, and the obscured Big Dipper is kind of funny here, because the guitars were not altogether known to either of us, only vaguely and from memory and pictures. Neither really knew what we were going to be looking at or playing, they were hidden away inside their cases, and even the location of his house was obscured into a remote area of desert wilderness. A lot of unknowns, but not an inkling of what we'd normally call suspicion, and certainly no hate. We'd already developed comrodery via email and a couple of phone calls, as well as sharing pictures. Good vibes from the start. The only things in question were whether or not our items of trade would be compatible.

    I was referring to Wilhelm and to LiSe's translation in particular, though I tried not to single any out. I haven't referred to Legge or any others. I think it important enough to share since so many refer to Wilhelm as the I Ching Bible, and I'm a bit surprised by LiSe's rendering, though I'm sure there's a reason for it, which is part of what I was fishing for. Curious what Harmen (or other translators) would say about the specific characters used.

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    55.2 . Advancing in darkness. Because of its dragon's head visual, this hexagram is associated with the eclipse. Advancing like a horse with blinders on, one does not know the whole situation. Much of what I do is advancing in darkness. I try something, and if it fails I take my loss. But I succeed often enough to keep me going.

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    Hi Bruce,

    Here is some information, be it only a drop in the pool.

    疑 is said to be a picture of an older man with a cane who is asking directions. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 匕矢足. 匕 is what they consider the older man but it can also translate to a man lying down, a spoon/ladle, or an arrowhead. 矢 is what they consider the cane but it can also translate to a vow, being straightforward, taking an oath, and an arrow/dart. 足 is what they consider asking directions but is a picture of a foot and simply whenever this small character is added in it is adding movement to the meaning.

    Sears
    Wiktionary

    疾 is said to be a picture of a sick person in bed. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 疒 矢. 疒 is a picture of a stretcher or bed used for the sick and by itself it is used to say 'sick' rather than bed. 矢 is again an arrow (like above in the last character). It also means to vow or swear. Perhaps the overall picture is that the person in bed was hit by the arrow.

    Sears
    Wiktionary

    It's noteworthy that the arrow is an element of both. I didn't include any definitions, because we see in translations what words people are choosing to use. It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.

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    the sector i'm working at is know for the capacities it has for one to mislead or decive clients and take advantage of them. I had to confront a lot of suspicion sometimes to a degree that one could only laugh because taking it serious and get offended was not of any help. Some of them have been victims of such frauds , so it became easier when understood it was not the current exchange between a client and our company but the general suspicion of such transactions. Even new clients that were referred from older satisfied one, even some of them were telling "X person send me here and said to give money and don't asked for a receipt " where very suspicious and they needed some time to relax and trust. after some time in such i position could understand the "sensitive" points and could offer reassurance , in one way or another, before they even asked for them. The rituals of 34 , in Yi's terms.

    So maybe its more about the situation, in general, and not the individuals. Understanding and not taking personal the suspicion of my client was helpful to ignore offensive remarks , proceeded and establish a trusting relationship.

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  11. #7
    sooo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by AskingQuestions View Post

    疑 is said to be a picture of an older man with a cane who is asking directions. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 匕矢足. 匕 is what they consider the older man but it can also translate to a man lying down, a spoon/ladle, or an arrowhead. 矢 is what they consider the cane but it can also translate to a vow, being straightforward, taking an oath, and an arrow/dart. 足 is what they consider asking directions but is a picture of a foot and simply whenever this small character is added in it is adding movement to the meaning.
    Heya Courtney

    Okay, now this is funny! First, both he and I are retired and decrepit old desert rats, lol. Second, there was some uncertainty about who would do the traveling, since we're both on a fixed and modest income. I try to get everything done one day a week with my drive up to Kingman. He lives clear on the other side of Kingman, several miles past actually. He wanted to wait a couple of days for his funds to be in better shape, so we agreed to put the meeting off for a couple of days. Then my neighbor and landlord stopped by to hand me a post office note, which meant I had to go to Kingman anyway to pickup up my niece's b'day gift of home made strawberry and rhubarb jelly preserves (yum!), so I called him to say I'll be "going" up there anyway, might as well stop by his place. He said, I was just about to call you cuz I'm kind of anxious to check this out. Then, since his house is located outside of town with a lot of this way and that way turns on dirt roads, I drew a map on copy paper, but he said he'd meet me on the main road so I wouldn't get lost. Two old men with canes, trying to find a way to meet up, asking directions - it fits your character descriptions to a T. Still chuckling here at the images.

    Vowing or swearing also describes our mutual determination to "get it done", sooner rather than later, and it seems fate was there to open the way. Wondering if the Big Dipper had a hand in that, pointing to a way.

    It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.
    I'm so glad you point this out, and it's largely why I thought it important enough to challenge those written interpretations which depicted distrust as an element of this line. It's been a thorn in my side for years, believing it to be not only misleading but to create the very mistrust and suspicion it proposes this line to mean. I've never found it to imply that mistrust, but I have had a visceral reaction from the wording of some popular translations. And, if it does that to me, I'm sure it does that to at least some others as well, it's only natural that it would, and it's all misleading.

  12. #8
    sooo Guest

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    Hi Maria,

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Not that what you describe can't be made to squeeze ones foot into that shoe, but it doesn't dismiss the dismal impression of the wording of some interpretations of that line. Just poor choices of words, as I view it. Wilhelm is the greatest sensationalist when it comes to these exaggerated explanations. Though sometimes inspiring, they sometimes provoke the entirely wrong message. That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.



    Tom, I think your wording is very applicable, though this swine still doesn't always see the pearls you see in the visual image of a hexagram structure. But if it reveals meaning to you, and you share that meaning, that's still helpful.

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  14. #9
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    The character parts do sort of paint a picture of a determined man who is perhaps even slightly frustrated at his age, which makes things a little harder for him to get around. Seems to have next to nothing to do with lack of trust. More to do with annoyance and irritation (rather than hate) caused by pairing the situation's needs with what is capable.

    Enjoy the jam ya old rat!

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    Code:
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    ▄▄  ▄▄ horns of the dragon
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    ▄▄  ▄▄ eyes
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