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Hate and suspicion in 55.2

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sooo

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Every time I receive 55.2 I am put off by the words translated as "hate and suspicion". I don't recall a time when either hate or suspicion entered the situation, the most recent being yesterday, before going to meet a fellow guitar player to do a trade of guitars, which we both seem very pleased about (auspicious). A really nice guy with whom I immediately hit it off well with. More appropriate words would have been anxiety and apprehension, as well as enthusiasm and hopefulness. Trust was not a factor, only pragmatic agreement of the mutual value of the exchange.
 

Trojina

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More appropriate words would have been anxiety and apprehension
,

These are the very words other translators have used.



Bradford says 'suspicion and anxiety'.

Hilary says 'doubts and anxieties'.

'Feng is screened off.
At midday seeing the Dipper.
Going on gains doubts and anxieties.
With truth and confidence coming to expression,
Good Fortune.'

Your experience fits that doesn't it ?

I think also one meets it in the other, the other is doubtful about you also....in anycase it seems in order to move forward one has to meet these doubts and anxieties about the other before being able to reach the 'truth and confidence'. So it's not automatic trust. So maybe both he and you had these doubts, naturally, in a deal with a stranger one won't be sure how he is going to play. Possibilities being he might sell for more than it's worth or with hidden defects etc etc and from his side his anxieties would be he gets a fair price. In this mini scenario you describe all these doubts are gotten through probably in a micro second flash...so it didn't take long to get to the truth and confidence.
 
S

sooo

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Yes, I referred to Brad's yesterday as well and agree more with how it was in reality, although even the word 'suspicion' can easily project the wrong idea for what is simply not yet known, something also that can easily be interpreted as a negative personal connotation, which was not present in our communication. Anxiety, a bit, apprehension, yes, but even more than these were excitement and enthusiasm. So why this negativity in this line, was my point. And it wasn't just yesterday; I've found this to consistently be the case every time I receive this line. I mean, we don't read "T'was the night before Christmas, and all the children were full of hate an suspicion.." Yet, it did feel a bit like Christmas, a childlike excitement, wondering what we'll find under the tree in those nicely wrapped boxes. What will that Big Dipper be like? (As an aside, there actually are Strat pickups called Big Dippers, designed for John Mayer.)

I do not yet have Hilary's book. I think her translation comes much closer to the actual experience. Even that it was midday, 12 noon precisely, and the obscured Big Dipper is kind of funny here, because the guitars were not altogether known to either of us, only vaguely and from memory and pictures. Neither really knew what we were going to be looking at or playing, they were hidden away inside their cases, and even the location of his house was obscured into a remote area of desert wilderness. A lot of unknowns, but not an inkling of what we'd normally call suspicion, and certainly no hate. We'd already developed comrodery via email and a couple of phone calls, as well as sharing pictures. Good vibes from the start. The only things in question were whether or not our items of trade would be compatible.

I was referring to Wilhelm and to LiSe's translation in particular, though I tried not to single any out. I haven't referred to Legge or any others. I think it important enough to share since so many refer to Wilhelm as the I Ching Bible, and I'm a bit surprised by LiSe's rendering, though I'm sure there's a reason for it, which is part of what I was fishing for. Curious what Harmen (or other translators) would say about the specific characters used.
 

pocossin

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55.2 . Advancing in darkness. Because of its dragon's head visual, this hexagram is associated with the eclipse. Advancing like a horse with blinders on, one does not know the whole situation. Much of what I do is advancing in darkness. I try something, and if it fails I take my loss. But I succeed often enough to keep me going.
 

AskingQuestions

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Hi Bruce,

Here is some information, be it only a drop in the pool.

疑 is said to be a picture of an older man with a cane who is asking directions. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 匕矢足. 匕 is what they consider the older man but it can also translate to a man lying down, a spoon/ladle, or an arrowhead. 矢 is what they consider the cane but it can also translate to a vow, being straightforward, taking an oath, and an arrow/dart. 足 is what they consider asking directions but is a picture of a foot and simply whenever this small character is added in it is adding movement to the meaning.

Sears
Wiktionary

疾 is said to be a picture of a sick person in bed. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 疒 矢. 疒 is a picture of a stretcher or bed used for the sick and by itself it is used to say 'sick' rather than bed. 矢 is again an arrow (like above in the last character). It also means to vow or swear. Perhaps the overall picture is that the person in bed was hit by the arrow.

Sears
Wiktionary

It's noteworthy that the arrow is an element of both. I didn't include any definitions, because we see in translations what words people are choosing to use. It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.
 

anemos

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the sector i'm working at is know for the capacities it has for one to mislead or decive clients and take advantage of them. I had to confront a lot of suspicion sometimes to a degree that one could only laugh because taking it serious and get offended was not of any help. Some of them have been victims of such frauds , so it became easier when understood it was not the current exchange between a client and our company but the general suspicion of such transactions. Even new clients that were referred from older satisfied one, even some of them were telling "X person send me here and said to give money and don't asked for a receipt " where very suspicious and they needed some time to relax and trust. after some time in such i position could understand the "sensitive" points and could offer reassurance , in one way or another, before they even asked for them. The rituals of 34 , in Yi's terms.

So maybe its more about the situation, in general, and not the individuals. Understanding and not taking personal the suspicion of my client was helpful to ignore offensive remarks , proceeded and establish a trusting relationship.
 
S

sooo

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疑 is said to be a picture of an older man with a cane who is asking directions. The character is composed of these smaller characters - 匕矢足. 匕 is what they consider the older man but it can also translate to a man lying down, a spoon/ladle, or an arrowhead. 矢 is what they consider the cane but it can also translate to a vow, being straightforward, taking an oath, and an arrow/dart. 足 is what they consider asking directions but is a picture of a foot and simply whenever this small character is added in it is adding movement to the meaning.

Heya Courtney

Okay, now this is funny! First, both he and I are retired and decrepit old desert rats, lol. Second, there was some uncertainty about who would do the traveling, since we're both on a fixed and modest income. I try to get everything done one day a week with my drive up to Kingman. He lives clear on the other side of Kingman, several miles past actually. He wanted to wait a couple of days for his funds to be in better shape, so we agreed to put the meeting off for a couple of days. Then my neighbor and landlord stopped by to hand me a post office note, which meant I had to go to Kingman anyway to pickup up my niece's b'day gift of home made strawberry and rhubarb jelly preserves (yum!), so I called him to say I'll be "going" up there anyway, might as well stop by his place. He said, I was just about to call you cuz I'm kind of anxious to check this out. Then, since his house is located outside of town with a lot of this way and that way turns on dirt roads, I drew a map on copy paper, but he said he'd meet me on the main road so I wouldn't get lost. Two old men with canes, trying to find a way to meet up, asking directions - it fits your character descriptions to a T. Still chuckling here at the images.

Vowing or swearing also describes our mutual determination to "get it done", sooner rather than later, and it seems fate was there to open the way. Wondering if the Big Dipper had a hand in that, pointing to a way.

It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.

I'm so glad you point this out, and it's largely why I thought it important enough to challenge those written interpretations which depicted distrust as an element of this line. It's been a thorn in my side for years, believing it to be not only misleading but to create the very mistrust and suspicion it proposes this line to mean. I've never found it to imply that mistrust, but I have had a visceral reaction from the wording of some popular translations. And, if it does that to me, I'm sure it does that to at least some others as well, it's only natural that it would, and it's all misleading.
 
S

sooo

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Hi Maria,

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not that what you describe can't be made to squeeze ones foot into that shoe, but it doesn't dismiss the dismal impression of the wording of some interpretations of that line. Just poor choices of words, as I view it. Wilhelm is the greatest sensationalist when it comes to these exaggerated explanations. Though sometimes inspiring, they sometimes provoke the entirely wrong message. That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.



Tom, I think your wording is very applicable, though this swine still doesn't always see the pearls you see in the visual image of a hexagram structure. But if it reveals meaning to you, and you share that meaning, that's still helpful.
 

AskingQuestions

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The character parts do sort of paint a picture of a determined man who is perhaps even slightly frustrated at his age, which makes things a little harder for him to get around. Seems to have next to nothing to do with lack of trust. More to do with annoyance and irritation (rather than hate) caused by pairing the situation's needs with what is capable.

Enjoy the jam ya old rat!
 

pocossin

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Code:
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄ horns of the dragon
▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄  ▄▄ eyes
▄▄▄▄▄▄
 

anemos

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Hi Maria,

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not that what you describe can't be made to squeeze ones foot into that shoe, but it doesn't dismiss the dismal impression of the wording of some interpretations of that line. Just poor choices of words, as I view it. Wilhelm is the greatest sensationalist when it comes to these exaggerated explanations. Though sometimes inspiring, they sometimes provoke the entirely wrong message. That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.

whilhelm is whilhelm ;)

I see hatred more as prejudice , at least that is the impression I got from his commentaries, as the two individuals there one seeks the other and the negativity is around them and not in them. Haven't any recollection of getting 55.2 , so just speculating.

What I found interesting is the man injured by the arrow, if that is the right way to take the character that means-between other things-hate.
 
S

sooo

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There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going". But interpret 55.2 however it pleases you. I was just trying to help.

ciao
 
S

sooo

Guest
Oh, I do appreciate Hilary's wording however. Thanks, Trojina, for sharing that. I do need to get her book!

Feng is screened off.
At midday seeing the Dipper.
Going on gains doubts and anxieties.
With truth and confidence coming to expression,
Good Fortune.

I especially like the wording, "Going on gains, doubts and anxieties," because those were my thoughts and emotions. And "With truth and confidence coming to expression," we jammed and talked gear-talk for over an hour before even asking the question, so, you want to trade? We both nodded casually. If he or I would have declined, I'm certain neither of us would have regrets for checking it out. We plan to get together in the near future to jam and just hang out. Two curmudgeons with guitars as canes :p.

I think the arrow has much the same symbolism as Sagittarius' arrow: direction (different sort of giving getting direction as already mentioned) and will, effort, determination to find out.

Tom, I can see if I squint and use some imagination. I can't see it as a reliable oracle, but more as an interesting Rorschach manner to seek out ones own intuitive insight. Not saying it isn't valid, only that I would lack confidence in using it. Maybe you have a special gift as a seer; that's always possible.
 

Trojina

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FWIW I have always taken this line as saying that you will meet the doubt or anxiety in the other. They won't automatically trust you or you have a little journey together to arrive at 'truth and confidence'. I tend to take that aspect from Wilhelm and it has always held true in my experience of 55.2. I've found 55.2 can be painful because the other holds perhaps hidden doubts about you.





There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going".

You only know what you felt in the encounter, not what he was experiencing. It's quite possible to seem smiley and chilled whilst holding reservations. I think we can all do that. So in that hour you spent together he may have been sussing you out.



Personally I have always found one simply has to persist in being 'true' and put up with being mistrusted for a while, then the other comes around in time. In your case it seemed to work out pretty quick. But remember we are all highly skilled actors, we have to be. If we don't trust someone the last thing we want them to know is we don't trust them. We might not trust someone while sitting having a very amicable beer and jam together...especially if there's later dealing to be done.

To me 55.2 pretty much paints a picture of any two strangers that get together with the view to doing a deal. They sniff around one another like dogs do....seeing what they pick up, how they feel about the other....that would be the 'doubt and anxiety' stage. When they had a good sniff and they accept each other then bones can be swapped in 'truth and confidence'.

There must be a Dog Yi waiting to be written somewhere. I see 55.2 every time 2 strange dogs meet...they have to check each other out first. This guy wasn't sniffing you but I'd wager he was, whether he showed it or not, weighing you up, seeing how he felt..

Like you I have never known 'hate' as a factor in 55.2 and the word has always jarred with me for this line....it isn't true. I haven't ever experienced the other as hating, but I just become aware of their initial doubts...which can last ages or just 5 minutes.
 
S

sooo

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I've no problem with that, checking, or as you say, sniffing one another out like dogs. Of course I'm very fond of dogs as a rule, unless one shows aggression toward me or mine. His dog, Duke, was a good barometer for me, as I find it easy to know a person's real nature by that of their dog(s), which are transparent, unlike people can sometimes be. I do tend to be very trusting, too much sometimes, as past experience has shown.

Yes, my visceral response was mainly due to the word, hate. I had no real issue with Bradford's rendering, though even that seemed more negative than the event seemed to be. Butterflies in the stomach was about it, and the reading was about whether I'd be happy with the trade, not about his personality or trustworthiness. But I know a lot more technical information than he does about guitars, so perhaps his reservations played more into it.

Anyhoo, after the honeymoon with this ax is over, I'll likely wind up selling it, as I don't need three guitars. It's always an education to check out a model that's new to me, and this was "the other" style I chose not to get back in '66 when purchasing my first electric. Killer fast neck, great sounds, but way too many unneeded tonal options. Plus for a US made special run Gibson, I find the guts to be rather cheaply made. But I don't hate it, lol. For sure it's worth more than what I traded and I told him so. He understood exactly what he was getting. My neighbor, landlord wants to buy it. Maybe I'll trade him for a horse :rolleyes:.
 

anemos

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There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going". But interpret 55.2 however it pleases you. I was just trying to help.

I understand what you say and the point you make about the negativity that word induce and how Wilhelm's ideas might lead one to see mistrust and get into a situation as they have to defend for the "hate".

"don't fret" seems to me - and i speculate again, might be the message of this line. Your long experience in sales as a salesman and trainer of sales persons, gives you the benefit to see that line in a way , less emotionally loaded than Wilhelm's rendering. From that vantage point, you can see the whole situation in a more clear way and the necessary checking as normal.

What i shared earlier was my personal experience of having to establish good rapport with strangers and how to deal with the totally understandable doubts. I had two choices , either focus on that lack of trust in my face which seems unreasonable since I had no intention to deceive them or focus on my good will and get through that obstacle.

That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.

Don't worry, or "don't let it worry you" sounds a good advice. A new employee i had in the past had to serve a client because I was busy with another one. The client show his worries of dealing with a new person and the employee, not used in such things when the client left , run to the bathroom and cried. They told me " why he treated me like that ?". I said them don't worry, its not about you . This is what I meant its about the "situation" ie. those kinds of transactions, and not about the specific individuals.
 

hilary

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Possibly relevant: the written language of the Zhouyi just has fewer words than English. So one emotion-word in the original might correspond to a whole menu of possibilities for us. Translators pick something from the menu and hope. (Or, as I did with 'fu', cheat and pick two.)
 
S

sooo

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Possibly relevant: the written language of the Zhouyi just has fewer words than English. So one emotion-word in the original might correspond to a whole menu of possibilities for us. Translators pick something from the menu and hope. (Or, as I did with 'fu', cheat and pick two.)

More than possibly relevant, it was my entire reason for posting my displeasure with some word choices used in 55.2, other than to inform of my personal experience with the line to support that belief. Actually, there were only two posts in this entire thread which supported my purpose for taking the time to post it, the rest had their fingers in the pie with the purpose of correcting me or enlightening me, for which I tried to be as gracious and receptive as I could. But I wasn't asking a question, I was stating an observation. Of course anyone is free to disagree, but the only remedial assistance I solicited was based on the actual characters, and how or why some interpreters of those characters chose such extreme words, such as mistrust and hate.

Those two posts were yours and Courtney's:

I didn't include any definitions, because we see in translations what words people are choosing to use. It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.

Thanks to you both. :bows:
 

Tohpol

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Interesting. I think it was probably the second time I received 55.2. Yesterday I asked about a contract I've recently taken on which is fairly flexible time wise and which also means going abroad briefly. After contemplating the various logistical factors I wasn't sure I could stay the course and whether it was worth the sheer level of energy that would be needed. (I'm already overworked).

In this case, it seems to have given me a mirror of my psychological state. i.e. Don't fret. Don't mistrust. You're in the dark but you can still navigate. I was doubting whether or not I have the capacity to complete the task for this set period of time.

So, now I'm going to take that as an affirmation that yes, I have what it takes. :D

Anyway, good thread.
 
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Tohpol

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Yes...That's what I thought.

But maybe just enough light to see my way through it all? I hope so. I've signed on the dotted line now, so to speak.

Well, we'll see won't we? :eek: :D
 

anemos

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Well, we'll see won't we? :eek: :D

:rofl: of course !!!! :cool:

irrelevant, but reading your post recalled some painting you shared here in the past. In many of them was a source of light while the surroundings were a bit dark
 

Tohpol

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Sounds like one of my old paintings from my artist days...Talk about a metaphor :D
 

charly

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Yes...That's what I thought.

But maybe just enough light to see my way through it all? I hope so. I've signed on the dotted line now, so to speak.

Well, we'll see won't we? :eek: :D
Hi, Topal:

You have just crossed the great river, it´s the begining of a war in which you will play the role of leader. The question is what sort of leader want you be. As Maria already pointed, maybe you are the light of guidance trought the darkness.

Based on Steve Marshall that holds H.55 is abour a solar eclipse over the Zhou capital (Feng) that was taken as good omen for launching the rebellion aganst the last king of Shang, I believe that the best literal translation (2) of the second part of 55.2 is:


PROCEEDING WILL GET SUSPICION AND ENVY,
BEING RELIABLE AND LOOKING SINCERE
(WILL BE) LUCKY.


Maybe applyable to the charismatic leadership that Zhous had. They faced suspicion and envy. They enjoyed a good personal image and had the communication skills needed for suceeding in the mission.

Wilhelm/Baynes said something about two personalitites, maybe speaking of Wen Wang (the Cultured King) and Wu Wang (the Martial King).(2)

It´s possible that you have both personalities.

All the best,


Charly
________________________
(1) Almost literal, be said.
(2) Maybe speaking of Wu Wang and Zhou Gong (the Duke of Zhou).
Ch.
 

Tohpol

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The glue that binds this all together is sincerity and reliability. So, keep to the program, don't overreach (no clown make-up and juggling). Just the fact's.

Nice, thanks Charly.
 

kafuka

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I have one 55.2 experience. I went to a hairdresser but arrived early, 30 minutes before the place starts, so I had to wait. I was the first there. Later when the hairdresser asked who was first I stood up but one customer immediately started yelling at me that she didn't see me there at all, and that I can't be the first. She was very hostile towards me. Even after another customer confirmed I really came first she didn't trust her and kept accusing me of lying. It was like I was invisible to her before, like the curtain was so big and thick that she couldn't see me... I don't know.
It's not the end of the story yet. I really have no idea why but the whole time when giving me haircut the hairdresser was somewhat unfriendly towards me as well. Moreover she told me to pay twice as much what was on the price list. Because I didn't feel like arguing I paid what she demanded. She gave me a very nice haircut though. ;)
 

charly

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The glue that binds this all together is sincerity and reliability. So, keep to the program, don't overreach (no clown make-up and juggling). Just the fact's.

Nice, thanks Charly.
Hi, Topal:

Actually the keys are, I believe, 1) to have reliability, to be recognized as reliable and 2) to look sincere. Say, not any leader can be a charismatic one. Only power or reason is not enough without know how to take advantage of image. (1)

We use to see Wen Wang, the Cultured King, as a good person, learned and pretty peaceful. But he was who prepared the alliance to attack the last king of Shang Dynasty and who moved war against some strategic neighbors in order to get a stronger position first.

Charismatic leadership is by its own nature, DANGEROUS but GLAMOROUS, the reason why I've translated SUSPICION an ENVY as correlative negative emergents. (2)(3)

Yours,


Charly
____________________________
(1) The opposite of positive emergents CONFIDENCE and LOVE .
yi2 = to doubt / to misbelieve / to suspect.
ji2 = sickness / disease // hate / envy / swift.
Rendered as: SUSPICION and ENVY.

(2)
fu2 = to trust / to believe in / to inspire confidence / to be reliable // to capture / captive /
Rendered as: BEING RELIABLE

(3)
fa1 = self- expression / to show one's feelings //to send out / to issue // personal name of Wu Wang.
ruo4 = to seem / like / as / if
Rendered as: LOOKING SINCERE, seeming to express one´s true feelings, thinkings, goals, points of wiew.

Ch.
 

Wondering

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Hi, I came upon this thread after receiving this line regarding how to get through/get over bad relations with my ex- with whom I still have to negotiate because of a shared professional project.

I’ve found him to be so aggressively controlling and without consideration that I am very triggered, even debilitated when Ive tried to seek equity or hold him accountable for personally attacking me. My response to this has been to protect by going underground, complying with his terms, accepting the loss that comes with this, and strengthening myself in other ways that will allow me to express my truth at a later date- if such a time will come. I have tremendous rage, though. I find “hate and suspicion” to describe my orientation precisely. And I know that he also mistrusts me- has made a wager of writing me off. All of this is tremendously vulnerable as I struggle to
emerge as an individual in our professional community of which he is a dominating figure. But I’m taking up the mandate- vowing to carry my own abundance with vigor as a means to move forward and move on. And taking up the mandate means stepping into my own power as a professional in our shared arena. Using my energy in this way- and NOT to risk further harm by seeking accountability from him. It’s a dark time, and I’m full of doubts about my value in this arena, but I believe I have something to offer that is strong and uniquely my own. I’m gathering myself in the dark, stepping out and away from his leering shadow, and possibly moving even beyond him, eclipsing him. Who knows? How dare I?
 

ernobe

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Both 55 and 34 have wood as the top trigram. The change ought to be in accord with fundamentals, not seeking for more. And according to the Nanjing rules 55.2(6) = 55.1(7). The Ten Wings commentary on this line reads,

'Though they are both of the same character, there will be no error:'—if the subject of this line seek to overpass that similarity, there will be calamity.

It's not time to try and overstep your partner, and if you do the outcome will not be favorable.
 

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