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Thread: Hate and suspicion in 55.2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooo View Post
    Hi Maria,

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Not that what you describe can't be made to squeeze ones foot into that shoe, but it doesn't dismiss the dismal impression of the wording of some interpretations of that line. Just poor choices of words, as I view it. Wilhelm is the greatest sensationalist when it comes to these exaggerated explanations. Though sometimes inspiring, they sometimes provoke the entirely wrong message. That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.
    whilhelm is whilhelm

    I see hatred more as prejudice , at least that is the impression I got from his commentaries, as the two individuals there one seeks the other and the negativity is around them and not in them. Haven't any recollection of getting 55.2 , so just speculating.

    What I found interesting is the man injured by the arrow, if that is the right way to take the character that means-between other things-hate.

  2. #12
    sooo Guest

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    There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going". But interpret 55.2 however it pleases you. I was just trying to help.

    ciao

  3. #13
    sooo Guest

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    Oh, I do appreciate Hilary's wording however. Thanks, Trojina, for sharing that. I do need to get her book!

    Feng is screened off.
    At midday seeing the Dipper.
    Going on gains doubts and anxieties.
    With truth and confidence coming to expression,
    Good Fortune.
    I especially like the wording, "Going on gains, doubts and anxieties," because those were my thoughts and emotions. And "With truth and confidence coming to expression," we jammed and talked gear-talk for over an hour before even asking the question, so, you want to trade? We both nodded casually. If he or I would have declined, I'm certain neither of us would have regrets for checking it out. We plan to get together in the near future to jam and just hang out. Two curmudgeons with guitars as canes .

    I think the arrow has much the same symbolism as Sagittarius' arrow: direction (different sort of giving getting direction as already mentioned) and will, effort, determination to find out.

    Tom, I can see if I squint and use some imagination. I can't see it as a reliable oracle, but more as an interesting Rorschach manner to seek out ones own intuitive insight. Not saying it isn't valid, only that I would lack confidence in using it. Maybe you have a special gift as a seer; that's always possible.

  4. #14
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    FWIW I have always taken this line as saying that you will meet the doubt or anxiety in the other. They won't automatically trust you or you have a little journey together to arrive at 'truth and confidence'. I tend to take that aspect from Wilhelm and it has always held true in my experience of 55.2. I've found 55.2 can be painful because the other holds perhaps hidden doubts about you.





    There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going".
    You only know what you felt in the encounter, not what he was experiencing. It's quite possible to seem smiley and chilled whilst holding reservations. I think we can all do that. So in that hour you spent together he may have been sussing you out.



    Personally I have always found one simply has to persist in being 'true' and put up with being mistrusted for a while, then the other comes around in time. In your case it seemed to work out pretty quick. But remember we are all highly skilled actors, we have to be. If we don't trust someone the last thing we want them to know is we don't trust them. We might not trust someone while sitting having a very amicable beer and jam together...especially if there's later dealing to be done.

    To me 55.2 pretty much paints a picture of any two strangers that get together with the view to doing a deal. They sniff around one another like dogs do....seeing what they pick up, how they feel about the other....that would be the 'doubt and anxiety' stage. When they had a good sniff and they accept each other then bones can be swapped in 'truth and confidence'.

    There must be a Dog Yi waiting to be written somewhere. I see 55.2 every time 2 strange dogs meet...they have to check each other out first. This guy wasn't sniffing you but I'd wager he was, whether he showed it or not, weighing you up, seeing how he felt..

    Like you I have never known 'hate' as a factor in 55.2 and the word has always jarred with me for this line....it isn't true. I haven't ever experienced the other as hating, but I just become aware of their initial doubts...which can last ages or just 5 minutes.

  5. #15
    sooo Guest

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    I've no problem with that, checking, or as you say, sniffing one another out like dogs. Of course I'm very fond of dogs as a rule, unless one shows aggression toward me or mine. His dog, Duke, was a good barometer for me, as I find it easy to know a person's real nature by that of their dog(s), which are transparent, unlike people can sometimes be. I do tend to be very trusting, too much sometimes, as past experience has shown.

    Yes, my visceral response was mainly due to the word, hate. I had no real issue with Bradford's rendering, though even that seemed more negative than the event seemed to be. Butterflies in the stomach was about it, and the reading was about whether I'd be happy with the trade, not about his personality or trustworthiness. But I know a lot more technical information than he does about guitars, so perhaps his reservations played more into it.

    Anyhoo, after the honeymoon with this ax is over, I'll likely wind up selling it, as I don't need three guitars. It's always an education to check out a model that's new to me, and this was "the other" style I chose not to get back in '66 when purchasing my first electric. Killer fast neck, great sounds, but way too many unneeded tonal options. Plus for a US made special run Gibson, I find the guts to be rather cheaply made. But I don't hate it, lol. For sure it's worth more than what I traded and I told him so. He understood exactly what he was getting. My neighbor, landlord wants to buy it. Maybe I'll trade him for a horse .

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooo View Post
    There was no irritation nor any prejudice, in or around the event of "going". But interpret 55.2 however it pleases you. I was just trying to help.
    I understand what you say and the point you make about the negativity that word induce and how Wilhelm's ideas might lead one to see mistrust and get into a situation as they have to defend for the "hate".

    "don't fret" seems to me - and i speculate again, might be the message of this line. Your long experience in sales as a salesman and trainer of sales persons, gives you the benefit to see that line in a way , less emotionally loaded than Wilhelm's rendering. From that vantage point, you can see the whole situation in a more clear way and the necessary checking as normal.

    What i shared earlier was my personal experience of having to establish good rapport with strangers and how to deal with the totally understandable doubts. I had two choices , either focus on that lack of trust in my face which seems unreasonable since I had no intention to deceive them or focus on my good will and get through that obstacle.

    That's the red flag I'm raising on 55.2 in this case. Don't let it worry you or lead you to mistrust or anticipate hatred.
    Don't worry, or "don't let it worry you" sounds a good advice. A new employee i had in the past had to serve a client because I was busy with another one. The client show his worries of dealing with a new person and the employee, not used in such things when the client left , run to the bathroom and cried. They told me " why he treated me like that ?". I said them don't worry, its not about you . This is what I meant its about the "situation" ie. those kinds of transactions, and not about the specific individuals.

  7. #17
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    Possibly relevant: the written language of the Zhouyi just has fewer words than English. So one emotion-word in the original might correspond to a whole menu of possibilities for us. Translators pick something from the menu and hope. (Or, as I did with 'fu', cheat and pick two.)

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  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilary View Post
    Possibly relevant: the written language of the Zhouyi just has fewer words than English. So one emotion-word in the original might correspond to a whole menu of possibilities for us. Translators pick something from the menu and hope. (Or, as I did with 'fu', cheat and pick two.)
    More than possibly relevant, it was my entire reason for posting my displeasure with some word choices used in 55.2, other than to inform of my personal experience with the line to support that belief. Actually, there were only two posts in this entire thread which supported my purpose for taking the time to post it, the rest had their fingers in the pie with the purpose of correcting me or enlightening me, for which I tried to be as gracious and receptive as I could. But I wasn't asking a question, I was stating an observation. Of course anyone is free to disagree, but the only remedial assistance I solicited was based on the actual characters, and how or why some interpreters of those characters chose such extreme words, such as mistrust and hate.

    Those two posts were yours and Courtney's:

    I didn't include any definitions, because we see in translations what words people are choosing to use. It would be interesting to pick an ancient Chinese person's brain and ask them why they have chose these specific "pictures" to note these specific concepts/words.
    Thanks to you both.

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    Interesting. I think it was probably the second time I received 55.2. Yesterday I asked about a contract I've recently taken on which is fairly flexible time wise and which also means going abroad briefly. After contemplating the various logistical factors I wasn't sure I could stay the course and whether it was worth the sheer level of energy that would be needed. (I'm already overworked).

    In this case, it seems to have given me a mirror of my psychological state. i.e. Don't fret. Don't mistrust. You're in the dark but you can still navigate. I was doubting whether or not I have the capacity to complete the task for this set period of time.

    So, now I'm going to take that as an affirmation that yes, I have what it takes.

    Anyway, good thread.
    Last edited by topal; September 11th, 2014 at 11:57 PM. Reason: syntax
    "Take the understanding of the East and the knowledge of the West and then seek." G.I.Gurdjieff

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    anemos (September 11th, 2014)

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by topal View Post
    You're in the dark but you can still navigate.

    A tad darker line than the bright lodstar of h17

    Good luck with the project !

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    Tohpol (September 11th, 2014)

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