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Thread: 17,4

  1. #1
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    Default 17,4

    The success of this new project in Manchester is not looking very likely: 17,3,4>63

    I submitted a post on 17,4 some months ago but it reappeared again recently in a reading that, I suspect, makes its meaning even clearer. The Wilhelm line-text for 17,4 reads:-

    Following creates success.
    Perseverance brings misfortune.
    To go one’s way with sincerity brings clarity.
    How could there be blame in this?

    The first line of the line-text confirms that the direction one has been following has been correct and would lead to success.The perseverance mentioned in the second line is often seen as perseverance in the direction described in the first line, but this doesn't correlate with my own personal experience. The second line is not referring to perseverance in the direction one has been following but rather to perseverance in the doubts and uncertainties that have begun to appear. If these are maintained they will lead to the collapse of one’s position. The third line affirms that if you can return to your original direction with faith and sincerity your doubts will disappear and your path will become clearer and clearer.

    In over twenty-five years of using the I Ching I have never once found 17,4 to apply to a situation of misfortune following the acquisition of followers.

    A suggested clarifying addition to the line-text would read as follows:-

    Following your true path creates success.
    Perseverance in doubting or disbelieving brings misfortune.
    To go your way with faith and sincerity brings clarity.
    How could there be blame in this?
    Last edited by peter2610; October 5th, 2015 at 02:39 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Default

    I think that addition destroys the meaning.
    And it certainly isn't in the Chinese.

  4. #3
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    The problem is that the most commonly accepted interpretation of the line - that one at 4th yang obtains followers who bring about one's downfall - isn't in the Chinese either, it's an interpretation just as my suggestion is an interpretation. As I mentioned in my post I have never once received 17,4 in a situation whereby I have obtained followers who eventually proved to be a liability. I HAVE received 17,4 many times where my questioning doubts have proved to be groundless - but I don't regard that as a final definitive proof. I think that this is one of those difficult situations where each person has to search for his/her best interpretation. Peter

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  6. #4
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    Or you could use a proper interpretation of the original Chinese text to begin with.

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradford View Post
    Or you could use a proper interpretation of the original Chinese text to begin with.
    Hi, Brad:

    To get a proper interpretation one must begin with a literal translation, I believe.

    Why not to begin with it?

    All the best,

    Charly

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    Quote Originally Posted by charly View Post
    Hi, Brad:
    To get a proper interpretation one must begin with a literal translation, I believe.
    Why not to begin with it?
    Charly
    That's what I did. But I'm sure yours will have naked girls in it somewhere.

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  10. #7
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    CHAR-LY CHAR-LY CHAR-LY!! (I've been watching too much Gerry Springer.)

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  12. #8
    sooo Guest

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    Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?

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  14. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooo View Post
    Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?
    That's how I read it too. Following contrasts rule-bound following with ad hoc following or tracking. Can't keep following old successes, or others' successes.
    Also there's this about what to follow:
    10996087_10206948011398173_4525505442039488333_n.jpg

    Another, more distantly related metaphor:
    A swami kept a cat in his ashram. There were very few occasions when the cat and the swami were not seen together. The only time there was ever any problem was at Evening Puja, when the cat sometimes upset the oil lamps. After a few incidents, the swami decided the cat could not be present during the Puja any more and took to putting it out just before the ritual began. This solved the problem comfortably and Puja went on for years without interruption. Eventually the swami passed away. All the faithful devotees continued doing Puja and continued to put the cat out before it began. One day the cat died. There was no question in the minds of the devotees: they immediately went out to the market and found another cat for the ashram. It would not be possible to do Puja properly without the ritual of putting the cat outside.
    Last edited by bradford; October 10th, 2015 at 01:10 AM.

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  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooo View Post
    Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?
    Hi, Bruce:

    I agree with it.

    See a temporary translation
    (with some alternatives added at the foot following Brad´s suggestion):



    隨有獲
    sui2 you3 huo4
    FOLLOWING TO_HAVE CAUGHT
    Looking for getting captives ... (1)

    貞凶
    zhen1 xiong1
    OMEN UNFORTUNATE
    It should be horrible!

    有孚在道以明
    you3 fu2 zai4 dao4 yi3 ming2
    HAVING TRUST IN METHOD IN_ORDER_TO UNDERSTAND
    If we have a reliable method to understand ...
    Or: going your way, behaving at your manner, following your understanding...

    何咎
    he2 jiu4
    HOW WRONG?
    How should it be wrong?


    All the best,


    Charly

    ___________________________
    (1) Dirty alternative, another almost literal translation for this sequence:

    Only looking for having sex... it should be unlucky!

    The engish verb TO CATCH in spanish is COGER, which means TO FETCH and also TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In chinese a character meaning TO FETCH (取 qu3) also can mean TO MARRY.

    (2) Another sequence that allows more almost literal translation:

    HAVING CAUGHT ON (the) ROAD WITH CLARITY,
    Say, sex outdoors at the stars light
    Or, maybe, sex outdoors FOLLOWING the teachings learnt in Hilary´s forum (CLARITY)

    ... how should it be wrong?


    huo4 means to capture, to catch.
    fu2 means reliable, confidence, sincerity but earlier it meant to capture, to catch be prisoners, be booty.
    dao4 means road, way, path and also method.
    means clarity and also understading.
    qu3 means to fetch, to catch, to take and also to marry.

    Ch.
    Last edited by charly; October 10th, 2015 at 02:34 AM.

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