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Thread: 17,4

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter2610 View Post
    The problem is that the most commonly accepted interpretation of the line - that one at 4th yang obtains followers who bring about one's downfall - isn't in the Chinese either, it's an interpretation just as my suggestion is an interpretation. As I mentioned in my post I have never once received 17,4 in a situation whereby I have obtained followers who eventually proved to be a liability. I HAVE received 17,4 many times where my questioning doubts have proved to be groundless - but I don't regard that as a final definitive proof. I think that this is one of those difficult situations where each person has to search for his/her best interpretation. Peter
    I had to tangle a bit with Charly's temporary translation. The key was in concluding that to follow my way didn't have to do violation to established method or tradition, such as going out to buy a replacement cat in keeping with established forms or establishment.

    I'm not seeing such a wide chasm in interpretation, only a bit in expression, which seems in keeping with the spirit of line 4. However, I've never in any way associated obtaining a following and a resulting downfall with this line. Rather the downfall would result from either following the established path or expecting any to follow my path. Just go quietly along my way.

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    charly (October 10th, 2015), peter2610 (October 10th, 2015)

  3. #12
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    Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?
    - Sooo

    Yes, "Following" is the following of one's true path, however hard this might become, it is the following of one's spiritual destiny, not the following of convention. The latter part of 17,4 (To go one’s way with sincerity brings clarity. How could there be blame in this?) reinforces this approach, the need for "clarity" implies that there has been doubt and confusion and the earlier "Perseverance brings misfortune" is simply a warning that maintaining doubt and confusion will erode one's conviction and lead to misfortune. The way to avoid this is by increased sincerity in following one's path, not by abandoning one's path.

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    charly (October 10th, 2015)

  5. #13
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    Perhaps the confusion sprung from the blurred boundaries between self and group. Losing the sense of self , perhaps its the misfortune of line 4. Deindividuation is one of the hazards of following a group.

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    charly (October 10th, 2015)

  7. #14
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    Good point anemos, deindividuation/non-self is an important aspect in many religious paths and has been the intended effect of many world leaders throughout history. Perhaps a moderate example can be seen in army discipline where recruits are led through a strict regime that emphasises the importance of obedience over self-will. A more extreme, and dangerous, example can be seen in Hitler's phenomenal rise to power in the 1930's in which an entire nation gave its loyalty and support to such an extent that the movement more closely resembled a "cult" rather than a political party. Such can be the radical and powerful outcomes of deindividuation that I think we should be extremely careful in how we adopt it.
    Last edited by peter2610; October 11th, 2015 at 02:18 PM.

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  9. #15
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    I need to find a farewell gift for a close friend that leaves a team I belong too. Going to paint something and was thinking of a specific idea but was unsure. So kind of erased a dozen ideas from my mind concentrate of that person and the occasion and asked Yi "M's present " 17.4

    Sometimes , we have to say goodbyes, sometimes we have people let go. She follows the path of her heart, and now I'm sure about my gift to her.

  10. #16
    sooo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by anemos View Post
    I need to find a farewell gift for a close friend that leaves a team I belong too. Going to paint something and was thinking of a specific idea but was unsure. So kind of erased a dozen ideas from my mind concentrate of that person and the occasion and asked Yi "M's present " 17.4

    Sometimes , we have to say goodbyes, sometimes we have people let go. She follows the path of her heart, and now I'm sure about my gift to her.

  11. #17
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    Nice !

    Soon will be my time to get farewell gifts and I hope will get something like that.

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    I am grateful for this thread as it helps my understanding of 17.4. I have been struggling to understand the "Perseverance brings misfortune" bit. Peter's rendering "Perseverance in doubting or disbelieving brings misfortune" resonates. On reading the story Bradford shares in post #9 "putting the cat outside" for me becomes "putting the doubts outside" or "putting group think" outside" and following the "compass of one's heart" (Bruce's (?)post #16) on the journey, making course corrections as needed.

    Could 17.4 be the "journey and not the destination" line. Perhaps "Preverance brings misfortune" can refer to not being attached to the outcome. The path unfolds moment by moment.

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    How about perseverence (in following this particular thing or person) brings misfortune?
    Last edited by Moss Elk; August 24th, 2017 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #20
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    Default Or colloquially: "Booty Call"

    I appear to be lurking in geriatric threads, but I sorta suck at sussing through forums. I've gotten this line predicting a booty call from a person I thought wasn't interested. Someone who had actually been really rude to me while with his friends, only to call me an hour later to ask me over.I went, thinking it was for a chat (I'd done some photos for him). When I asked why he was being a douche, he said he didn't want his friends to know he liked me. I didn't get his "lead" until his tongue was in my mouth.Now I'm predictably slow on the uptake, so I asked the Yi when I got home. I think my question was,"WTF??!!" The answer:17.4(1) Dirty alternative, another almost literal translation for this sequence:
    Only looking for having sex... it should be unlucky!
    The engish verb TO CATCH in spanish is COGER, which means TO FETCH and also TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In chinese a character meaning TO FETCH (取 qu3) also can mean TO MARRY. (2) Another sequence that allows more almost literal translation:
    HAVING CAUGHT ON (the) ROAD WITH CLARITY,Say, sex outdoors at the stars lightOr, maybe, sex outdoors FOLLOWING the teachings learnt in Hilary´s forum (CLARITY)... how should it be wrong?
    huo4 means to capture, to catch. fu2 means reliable, confidence, sincerity but earlier it meant to capture, to catch be prisoners, be booty. dao4 means road, way, path and also method. means clarity and also understading. qu3 means to fetch, to catch, to take and also to marry. Ch.[/QUOTE]

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