41,1

peter2610 · May 24, 2016

41,1 Decrease

This has probably been posted before but I thought it might be worth looking at again.

First, a general point on the image. The Wilhelm/Baynes Image reads as follows:

At the foot of the mountain, the lake:
The image of DECREASE.
Thus the superior man controls his anger
And restrains his instincts.

Many people view the reduction in depth of the lake in favour of the height of the mountain (described in the Miscellaneous Notes) as the primary symbolism of the hexagram - an explicit, external process. However, from the Image text above you will see that the superior man is occupied in the CONTROL of his anger and the RESTRAINT of his instincts. These are INTERNAL processes and this is the level at which, I would suggest, the hexagram is primarily concerned, it is urging you to apply control and restraint (Ken) to the eruptive urges (Tui) of anger, greed, jealousy, impatience etc. etc. etc. This control and restraint produce the Cultivation of Character mentioned in the Appended Judgement. Explicit, external losses are, of course, important but they are not the only type of loss covered by this hexagram.

41,1
Going quickly when one's tasks are finished is without blame,
But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others.

The general interpretation is based on the relationship of correspondence between the strong 1st yang and the week fourth yin. The one above needs help from the one below and it is readily offered by the latter. This is all well and good but the problem remains that the actual line text gives no indication whatsoever towards this interpretation. A second alternative line text is offered by Wilhelm, based on earlier I Ching texts: "Going quickly with services, to help the one above - is without blame." I have found this alternative line text to be far more accurate and far more useful. If anyone else has a view on this line I would be very interested in hearing from them.

Sixth Relative · May 24, 2016

Have you seen Richter's traslation on this line?

peter2610 · May 24, 2016

Sorry, no I haven't. Could you possibly post it on this thread?

bradford · May 25, 2016

That isn't a very good translation of 41.1
Legge's is a lot more faithful to the Chinese.
The first NINE, undivided, shows its subject suspending his own affairs, and hurrying away (to help the subject of the fourth line). He will commit no error, but let him consider how far he should contribute of what is his (for the other).
I would disagree that it relates to the fouth line, but it is sacrificing your own work to help another, which should at least be examined as to the worth of that, and whether the other needed help. It essentially asks for a cost-benefit analysis during a time of Decrease. What is the net worth of the action?
I had a slightly different take, sticking only to the Chinese words:
One’s own affairs are rushed and passed by
No harm is done
But consider decreasing this

Sixth Relative · May 25, 2016

Indeed, it is quite different to translate/understand
a) help others only when (after) your own work is finished
than
b) stop (neglect/sacfrifice) your own work to help others

For me, close to Bradford's take, option "b" makes more sense within the whole hexagram.

Richter gives even a different tone
yǐ shì chuán wǎng. wú jiù. zhuó sǔn zhī.
COMPLETE AFFAIR QUICKLY GO. NO HARM. POUR-WINE REDUCE IT.
When your AFFAIRS are COMPLETED, GO QUICKLY. NO HARM. In POURING the WINE, REDUCE the amount.

Liu Ming also gives relevance to the pouring of wine:
Offerings made quickly. Pouring libations. No misfortune
Unable to do something properly, you make a sincere but incomplete effort. When you lack resources or time, it is acceptable to abbreviate the formal protocols of ritual. Being pure of heart enhances the value of your gesture

What I like from Bradford, Richter and Ming is that in fact the text doesn't use any term related to "help others" (Bradford keeps the understanding of helping others in his commentary, though). The difference between Bradford and Richter/Ming lies in how to translate zhuo2: either as pondering (Bardford) or as pouring (Richter/Ming).

bradford · May 25, 2016

To some extent I see this lesson in 41.1

Screen Shot 2016-05-24 at 6.27.41 PM.jpg

butterfly spider · May 25, 2016

There is a similar picture in the store room of a local mountain activity centre.
It shows a climbing instructor failing to secure his own safety before attempting a rescue ...

peter2610 · May 25, 2016

Thanks everyone, I think I'll run with the Legge translation for a while and see how that goes.

Just one further point to clarify:

Going quickly when one's tasks are finished
Is without blame.
But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others.

The text encourages one to go quickly and give help, but it then suggests that one considers how much one may DECREASE others. If this sentence is addressed to the subject of the first sentence -- Going quickly..... -- then it fails to make sense as that subject is looking to increase others, not decrease them. If it is referring to any loss suffered by others resulting from 'Going Quickly' it still doesn't make sense in that we are informed that the subject's tasks are finished. That only leaves the option that the text is now addressing a different subject, located in this final sentence. I have come across this strange grammatical quirk elsewhere but my question is this: would it not have been possible through a change in grammar for the ancient Chinese to have made it perfectly clear whom, exactly, they were addressing?

gene · Jun 4, 2016

peter2610 said:
41,1 Decrease

This has probably been posted before but I thought it might be worth looking at again.

First, a general point on the image. The Wilhelm/Baynes Image reads as follows:

At the foot of the mountain, the lake:
The image of DECREASE.
Thus the superior man controls his anger
And restrains his instincts.

Many people view the reduction in depth of the lake in favour of the height of the mountain (described in the Miscellaneous Notes) as the primary symbolism of the hexagram - an explicit, external process. However, from the Image text above you will see that the superior man is occupied in the CONTROL of his anger and the RESTRAINT of his instincts. These are INTERNAL processes and this is the level at which, I would suggest, the hexagram is primarily concerned, it is urging you to apply control and restraint (Ken) to the eruptive urges (Tui) of anger, greed, jealousy, impatience etc. etc. etc. This control and restraint produce the Cultivation of Character mentioned in the Appended Judgement. Explicit, external losses are, of course, important but they are not the only type of loss covered by this hexagram.

41,1
Going quickly when one's tasks are finished is without blame,
But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others.

The general interpretation is based on the relationship of correspondence between the strong 1st yang and the week fourth yin. The one above needs help from the one below and it is readily offered by the latter. This is all well and good but the problem remains that the actual line text gives no indication whatsoever towards this interpretation. A second alternative line text is offered by Wilhelm, based on earlier I Ching texts: "Going quickly with services, to help the one above - is without blame." I have found this alternative line text to be far more accurate and far more useful. If anyone else has a view on this line I would be very interested in hearing from them.

One must remember that the I Ching is multidimensional, and any line can mean anything, absolutely anything, so it all depends on the context. One must use one's intuition. As far as relating to the fourth line, it may, or it may not, but by the law of correspondences, it does. That doesn't mean it has to be interpreted in that way in a reading. It doesn't mean it doesn't either.

There is a lesson here though, actually many, many lessons, but just this one for a sample, we can be too helpful to others. We can be so helpful that they do not learn to stand on their own two feet. They may even resent it, or they may not, but just use you.

We have to be careful about hard and fast rules. The I Ching is not just a divination. It is a way of life. Called by Taoists the way of Tao, called by Christians the way of the cross. In each tradition there is the same context, the sacrifice of self for the greater good, and to allow the universe to flow through us so that we follow the natural way. This may relate to how we interact with someone else, it may not. Context will give us so many insights. But we must understand something, form is like rules, we have to have form until content comes to life. (See hexagram 22) Tai Chi and other martial arts are based on the same premise. You learn a form until you have found the content, then there is no form. The I Ching is like this,we follow form until we have found the content.

rosada · Jun 4, 2016

There may be some insights to be gained by considering the previous line, 40.6 - 64.

40.6 Here the man releases the arrow and kills the hawk and saves the townspeople! Hurray! Problem solved! But... 64. is Before Completion. So everything's not quite completed yet? Maybe now the townspeople need further help in other areas? But Geeze, how much help do they need?

41.1 True it's nice to help but ya gotta think about how much help you can give before you start needing help yourself.

iams girl · Jun 5, 2016

peter2610 said:
Just one further point to clarify:

Going quickly when one's tasks are finished
Is without blame.
But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others.

The text encourages one to go quickly and give help, but it then suggests that one considers how much one may DECREASE others. If this sentence is addressed to the subject of the first sentence -- Going quickly..... -- then it fails to make sense as that subject is looking to increase others, not decrease them. If it is referring to any loss suffered by others resulting from 'Going Quickly' it still doesn't make sense in that we are informed that the subject's tasks are finished. That only leaves the option that the text is now addressing a different subject, located in this final sentence. I have come across this strange grammatical quirk elsewhere but my question is this: would it not have been possible through a change in grammar for the ancient Chinese to have made it perfectly clear whom, exactly, they were addressing?

Yes, seems to go either way:

1) A family man/woman hurries to finish their day's work knowing they have volunteered to help someone after work, yet also being mindful of not lingering in order to get back to their own family needs.

2) Or, enabling someone by rushing to help instead of letting them work things out on their own.

I would think it would have been written that one must reflect on how much one may decrease "the other" instead of "others" if it were the second case though.

peter2610 · Jun 5, 2016

Thanks Gene: Yes I agree that flexible openness must be maintained in any interpretation of the I Ching. My intention was not to suggest any hard and fast rule regarding 41,1 it was simply to clarify an alternative approach which I have found to be very useful. It was given in a spirit of sharing as a clarification of form, an important step if the correct content is to be distinguished. To a young musician the difference between F sharp and B flat is a fundamental and preoccupying aspect of form, to the advanced musician both notes serve his principal focus — content. To the master musician the entire content transforms into his ultimate goal — formless essence.

Rosada, many thanks, I'll get back to you on this one.

peter2610 · Jun 6, 2016

Ian's Girl: The use of "others" - 3rd person plural - fits in perfectly with your interpretation of a third party who are decreased through the priority given to "other" - 3rd person singular. This solves the question of how could one possibly decrease an "other" whom one had set out to increase - they are two separate parties, the one singular , the other plural. Many thanks.

gene · Jun 6, 2016

peter2610 said:
Thanks Gene: Yes I agree that flexible openness must be maintained in any interpretation of the I Ching. My intention was not to suggest any hard and fast rule regarding 41,1 it was simply to clarify an alternative approach which I have found to be very useful. It was given in a spirit of sharing as a clarification of form, an important step if the correct content is to be distinguished. To a young musician the difference between F sharp and B flat is a fundamental and preoccupying aspect of form, to the advanced musician both notes serve his principal focus — content. To the master musician the entire content transforms into his ultimate goal — formless essence.

Rosada, many thanks, I'll get back to you on this one.

Hello Peter

My intention was not to say that you in particular were following hard and fast rules, just that it is not necessary. Ironically, almost immediately after I posted this, i received hexagram 43 in which the commentary says, "...there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded." I think I could have said it better by saying we should use the guidelines, but not hard and fast. In this case, suppose both lines 1 and 4 were changing. How would we interpret it then> The rule is the law of correspondences, but when we look at correspondence, just how do we interpret it in a given situation. The law of correspondence is a guideline for us to look at the meaning, but it does not force the issue, it gives us a guideline to go by. Anyway, it is all fascinating.

peter2610 · Jun 6, 2016

rosada said:
There may be some insights to be gained by considering the previous line, 40.6 - 64.

40.6 Here the man releases the arrow and kills the hawk and saves the townspeople! Hurray! Problem solved! But... 64. is Before Completion. So everything's not quite completed yet? Maybe now the townspeople need further help in other areas? But Geeze, how much help do they need?

41.1 True it's nice to help but ya gotta think about how much help you can give before you start needing help yourself.

40,6-64 I generally see the 64 as an indication that an opening has been achieved following the demise of the hawk but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a far more subtle, implicit interpretation available. 40,6>64 could certainly be seen as rolling into 41,1 in the sense that 41,1 creates, as we've discussed, further unfinished business to be concluded. As for "needing help yourself" whenever we help others we often have a sense of being fulfilled by the process. When I was a lecturer I used to find that lecturing on any topic made my understanding of it more robust and integral, "Within every decrease there is an increase."

peter2610 · Jun 6, 2016

Thanks Gene, I think we're both on the same page with this one. Any further auxiliary information that we have available (correspondence, resultants, parallel nuclear progressions, etc) is there just as an overall guide and does not have to be hauled out in a definitive manner with every reading. Hex 41 provides us with a good example of using correspondence to help clarify one's position.

41,1 "Going quickly" indicates going willingly, going decisively, without hesitation. 41,4 "If a man decreases his faults" - decreasing one's doubts, hesitation, unwillingness. Both lines are simply different aspects of an underlying reluctance to give support.It doesn't matter which line one regards as more important, following either one with care will lead to the final goal.

gene · Jun 8, 2016

peter2610 said:
Thanks Gene, I think we're both on the same page with this one. Any further auxiliary information that we have available (correspondence, resultants, parallel nuclear progressions, etc) is there just as an overall guide and does not have to be hauled out in a definitive manner with every reading. Hex 41 provides us with a good example of using correspondence to help clarify one's position.

41,1 "Going quickly" indicates going willingly, going decisively, without hesitation. 41,4 "If a man decreases his faults" - decreasing one's doubts, hesitation, unwillingness. Both lines are simply different aspects of an underlying reluctance to give support.It doesn't matter which line one regards as more important, following either one with care will lead to the final goal.

I think too that the term going quickly in some contexts could carry the sense of just doing our duty and not expecting praise or return for it. Just do the job and be done with it. Doing it for its own sake and not for return.

deusa · Sep 10, 2017

I recieved this reading 41.1.4>64 when asking what I should know about a guven situation.
Your commentsnwere very helpful: i tried to help and it was not good. So i left the guy to his own resources. Apparently a wise decision.
That was 41.1. Not sure about 41.4...

charly · Sep 14, 2017

rosada said:
...
40.6 Here the man releases the arrow and kills the hawk and saves the townspeople! Hurray! Problem solved! ...

Hi, Rosada:

I'affraid that the chinese received text does not say that the HAWK be KILLED but that he was COUGHT or CAPTURED.

All the best,

Charly

charly · Sep 14, 2017

41.1 chinese received text and literal translation:

已事遄往无咎酌損之
yi3 shi4 chuan2 wang3 wu2 jiu4 zhuo2 sun3 zhi1
STOP WORKING HURRY GO NO WRONG POURING WINE INJURES IT

Stop working. Quickly go (it has the sense of going with a purpose). Not a mistake. Drinking wine injures it.

It looks like a warning about the danger of going to an AFTER HOURS with a purpose in mind and ending drinking too much.

Of course, there are more literal alternatives.

I doubt that the purpose be to satisfy other's needs. I might be wrong. Nobody's perfect.

For chinese characters see here:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/printthread.php?t=22681&pp=10&page=2

Charly

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