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Some minor things about divination in general

gene

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It has been said that I never put anything personal in terms of readings on this forum, and that has been pretty much true, and now I will try to remedy that a little bit. But I need to say first that the types of readings I do are normally for spiritual purposes and for emotional and spiritual growth far more than anything more mundane. Now that being said, I have, as we all have, probably, asked about relationships and work situations (which are far and away the most type of question asked.) Most of the time the answer is that “you are nuts to even think about it!” but sometimes not.

Now, before I go any farther, let me say that the government and other agencies around the world, and some businesses as well, do use programs with algorithms that collect data on every citizen and use various means to create a psychological profile on every citizen around the world who uses a computer. That is just a fact. It does not have to deter us from having fun or talking. Most of us want to have friendly relations both in person and online, and we have to share to do that. Still it doesn’t hurt to be aware of what we are putting out there.

Let me say also, that when someone posts here, they have no idea how much information they are putting out there for others to pick up on, and how much can be gleaned by few words. It is remarkable once you start putting things together. And even though I very rarely give personal stuff here, I have given enough that some could know me inside and out. But enough said about that.

Since I do use the I Ching primarily both for spiritual growth and to gain a better understanding of the nature of the I Ching itself, my readings usually involve more than one hexagram, in which times, I look for a common thread among the hexagrams, and try to come up with a meaning that tells me what I need to work on in my life, where my ego is a problem, etc., etc., etc.

I will give an example of a reading recently received, and allow anyone who wants to take a shot at it, see if they can decipher it, and what the spiritual teaching is, if anyone wants to, anyway. The reading is the following:

1st hexagram 59 lines four and five leading to sixty four.
2nd hexagram 52, unchanging.
3rd hexagram 64 lines four and six, leading to 7.

There is no backdrop to this, except as a lesson as to how I should lead my life in general. And I have not analyzed this myself yet.

Since I am retired, no business questions need to be asked of the I Ching. Since I am retired, relationship questions are kind of off the table too. So I can’t share that much. Here is a reading from some time ago though that relates to a relationship question, that people may want to read just for the practice. I will tell how it came out later. The question was, “what is the best that can happen between us?” And the answer was, number 59, lines 5 and 6, leading to hexagram 7. Some of you may know how it came out instantly, others may not. But it will give some a chance to think about how these things work, and get to know the I Ching better. If that is, they care to do so.

One more thing quickly I will say. While the answer we get from the I Ching is going to be correct in some way, our chances of interpreting it correctly are almost nil. This is for a number of reasons. Sometimes we do interpret it correctly, but it still comes out different than we thought it would anyway. It has been said that a reading “can be 100% correct, and still literally wrong.” One reason for this is that we come from a place of immaturity and naivette, because our spiritual life is waning. If we ask for the wrong reasons we get the wrong answers, actually not wrong, but wrong interpretations. If we ask with selfish reasons, we can get set up, not with a wrong answer, but a wrong interpretation. We have to consistently monitor ourselves and our motives. We cannot fall into the trap of thinking the I Ching is an “automatic response system.” It is not. It has an intelligence, and it is wise beyond imagination. Many people do not believe that, but if they continue to use it they will find out the hard way that it is not a toy. I cannot stress that enough. We must come before it humbly. (See hexagram 15) or it will trick us, not with malice, but because that is the way things work.

The most important thing is to work on ourselves. Without this we eventually get lost, as in hexagram three line three where we "hunt deer (spiritual insights) without the Forester," (A proper understanding of the I Ching to begin with.) Having a college degree or even a doctor;s degree will not help us in any way here. The I Ching must be intuitively understood. It cannot be intellectualized. That is "hunting deer without the forester."

Enough for now.
 
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gene

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Oops, the relationship question was 13 lines 5 and 6 leading to 55. I did get hexagram fifty nine lines 5 and 6 in another case though. For a while I was getting hexagram 13 a lot, and these days I get hexagram 59 over and over again, whereas for years it almost never came up. There is something that goes beyond chance displayed in the reading of hexagrams. It may not seem like it, and if we just arbitrarily start casting hexagrams, there will be a lot of randomness to it. It should be remembered though that some hexagrams are much less likely to come up than others. For example, hexagrams 1 and 2 are less likely to come up because 1 is all yang and is all yin. There is also less of a likelihood of getting 63 and 64, but they will come up in the right circumstances. Interestingly I have gotten hexagram two with changing lines very rarely over the years, but as a second, or relating hexagram I get it over and over again, and have for years. Hexagram one very rarely comes up, but when it does it is almost always as a primary hexagram, almost never as a second. There is an intelligence behind this.
 

iams girl

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Hi Gene,

It's true that ulterior motives and misinterpretations can cloud things, and yet, something always seems to resonate at a deeper level with Yi's answers. Yi's object may actually be to be an influence, helping us figure things out for ourselves rather than providing us complete answers especially when working with deep-rooted stuff. It's also true readings can lend some transparency to a person's circumstances, but it's still very personal and individual. I think part of analyzing other's readings also has to do with how genuine a person's tone comes across. One person may receive a reading that shocks their senses and another a gentle nudge in similar circumstances depending on where they are in their path, so the effect of an answer is another layer to consider.

Your post about yourself seems cryptic still, but taking the readings at face value that you are attempting more of a connection, to me the trigrams in the three readings could be read as maintaining vision, higher purpose, and composure under difficult circumstances which allows for growth and the ability to be open in interactions with others. The nuclears add elements of balancing care of self and others, things being resolved, and finalizing things. The lines show progress in a long-term work, but not time to let one's guard down. Could be any number of circumstances. Ultimately, I think the spiritual and the ordinary have a lot in common when it comes to Yi. Sounds like you have your share of both :).

Iam's
 

gene

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Hi Iam's

That is a very nice post to which I will try to respond more to later. I have to go out of town shortly for most of the day. You are absolutely right about Yi's answers helping us figure things out. It does not have any way to say literally in English exactly what is going to happen. That is why I like the three translations by Wilhelm/Baynes, Ni Hua Ching, and Alfred Huang the best, because they give you a message that can resonate in many different ways depending on the question and the needs of the seeker. In other words, they are multidimensional.

It is true that the physical world is a mirror image of the spiritual. In one sense of the word there really is no spiritual because the physical world is all we can perceive, but in another, there is not physical world because it is only the manifestation of the thoughts of spirit, and as such has no true reality and is only an illusion, but oh, so very real of an illusion.

I really like your analysis of the three hexagrams and will try to say more about it later. The I Ching responds in ways that fit the level of understanding that a person has. Therefore we may get one thing out of a reading the first time we get it, something completely different years later when we get the next line. It is all a lot of fun.

Also, there is nothing wrong with a certain amount of self seeking as long as there is no intention of hurting another person, or as long as that self seeking is beneficial to all. Sometimes though, there is a tendency to ask a question about whether a certain thing will happen when all we have to do to know is live longer enough to see if it happens. That is the most accurate way. And that in a way relates to how we perceive the usage of the I Ching. What is it's real purpose and function?
 

gene

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oops, I meant to say, "when we get the same line, or reading," in the next to the last paragraph above.
 

lena_p

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Hi Gene,

It's true that ulterior motives and misinterpretations can cloud things, and yet, something always seems to resonate at a deeper level with Yi's answers. Yi's object may actually be to be an influence, helping us figure things out for ourselves rather than providing us complete answers especially when working with deep-rooted stuff. It's also true readings can lend some transparency to a person's circumstances, but it's still very personal and individual. I think part of analyzing other's readings also has to do with how genuine a person's tone comes across. One person may receive a reading that shocks their senses and another a gentle nudge in similar circumstances depending on where they are in their path, so the effect of an answer is another layer to consider.

Your post about yourself seems cryptic still, but taking the readings at face value that you are attempting more of a connection, to me the trigrams in the three readings could be read as maintaining vision, higher purpose, and composure under difficult circumstances which allows for growth and the ability to be open in interactions with others. The nuclears add elements of balancing care of self and others, things being resolved, and finalizing things. The lines show progress in a long-term work, but not time to let one's guard down. Could be any number of circumstances. Ultimately, I think the spiritual and the ordinary have a lot in common when it comes to Yi. Sounds like you have your share of both :).

Iam's

This was such a great answer. I had to just quote it. Thank you, quite inspirational as well
 

gene

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Hello everyone

This morning I thought I would clarify some things a little bit. Iams answer was quite well done, especially in discussing how the I Ching often clarifies for us when we ask with ulterior motives. The I Ching does not castigate us or cast us off for our questions. It is not a moral punishment book. We have to look at this from the right perspective. It does teach morals in a sense, but not in the way we think of. It teaches us about ourselves, first and foremost, and gives us answers that help us see ourselves the way we truly are. Morals are not morals in the sense that something is right or something is wrong. It is not bad versus what is good, it is a matter of how correctly we see ourselves and our own motives. Hence, when I said something to the person who was asking if they were getting laid on their date tonight, it wasn't because I had any moral qualms about it, or that I thought there was any right or wrong, the reason I said something is because it shows an unnecessary level of anxiety within the individual. And that anxiety is in itself very likely to spoil the mood and create circumstances which very well could work against us and our desires. The answer would very likely respond to that rather than giving a direct answer. Somethings it is best if we just allow them rather than trying to create them, (And that in itself is a topic for a whole new discussion, because the yin side typically wants things to just happen, whereas the yang side feels that nothing ever happens unless you do something to make it happen. Both sides are correct, and both sides are incorrect, and this often causes a lot of trouble and confusion between men and women.) This is how psychology works, we put something out here and have no idea how much it says about us and who we are. We don't know because we don't see it, and most other people don't see it either, but some do. Nothing bad about it, it is just something to be aware of.

The I Ching is not just a tool to make us rich or wealthy or to help us win all our battles, it can help, but be careful that motives are right. There are two situations involved here. One is that we can have totally ulterior motives and are well aware of it. The other is that we can have ulterior motives and be totally unconscious of it. The second case is the case where the I Ching is much more likely to help us see ourselves. But this is what we need. We need to see ourselves as we are, and not just know the answer to some simple little question that will work itself out in time. We are dealing here with our own inner subconscious mind, which at the highest level is linked with the "universal subconscious mind," and is a much greater power than we ourselves in our conscious mind can be. As such we have to be respectful of universal power. The "big I" is much more powerful than the "little I". Hexagram 15 is goes into this in greater detail.

Anyway, enough for now. Will talk about the reading later.
 

iams girl

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Hi Lena, welcome and thank you for your kind response! :bows:
 

iams girl

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Hi Lena, welcome, and thank you for your kind response! :bows:
 

iams girl

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My icons at the bottom of posts such as "edit" or "reply with quote" don't seem to be working or this time posting twice! Was noticing, Lena, that you are fairly new, so double welcome to the site :)
 

iams girl

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My icons at the bottom of posts such as "edit" or "reply with quote" don't seem to be working or now posting twice! I was noticing, Lena, that you are fairly new, so double welcome to the site :)
 

gene

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As far as the reading, well, I will explain more later, but let's just note here that the three readings in general have a common theme, that of separating things out and then reuniting them. The second hexagram is in the center of the three readings, and it is in our center that we have to be still, calm, and collected even when things outside of us are changing rapidly. More on that later.
 

Trojina

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My icons at the bottom of posts such as "edit" or "reply with quote" don't seem to be working or now posting twice! I was noticing, Lena, that you are fairly new, so double welcome to the site :)

Are you using Internet Explorer ? If so you can no longer really use that browser with Clarity. I have had to change to Google Chrome as it is impossible to edit or use 'reply with quote' in IE. This all went haywire when Hilary installed chinese characters a week or so ago unfortunately. I can't even read any of her posts in IE they are littered with greek looking characters. I have discussed with Hilary and she has contacted Vbulletin about it but she is on holiday now and so are Vbulletin probably so she will probably sort it when she returns. Anyway you shouldn't have any trouble if you use another browser such as Google chrome but anyway message her when she comes back so at least it's clear I am not the only one who was affected. Well I'm using Google Chrome now anyway
 

iams girl

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Yes, I have IE and have the exact issues you described! And, I could only reply now by going to the advanced reply button. I'd prefer not to use Google Chrome after issues with it back in the Win 8 days, but might try Mozilla. It also sounds like another layer of things that could tie in with my 40.1>54 for the week. Hopefully this and a bigger issue I have going on will resolve to a more acceptable degree when everyone is back from holiday. I'll contact Hilary too, but it's nice to know it's not just me, thanks!
 

gene

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Quoting myself:


"I will give an example of a reading recently received, and allow anyone who wants to take a shot at it, see if they can decipher it, and what the spiritual teaching is, if anyone wants to, anyway. The reading is the following:

1st hexagram 59 lines four and five leading to sixty four.
2nd hexagram 52, unchanging.
3rd hexagram 64 lines four and six, leading to 7."

As I mentioned, these lines and hexagrams have to do with separating one thing out so that another may come in. There are often times in our lives when we have outgrown the old and are ready for a new start. These things happen on a subconscious level, and are things that are prepared for us in our karmic journey, which is meant to lead us to a higher level of maturity and understanding in our lives. Often consciously we resist the changes. It does not seem right to us. This is all too often because we are attached to things and/or people in our lives. So we think the changes are not good. However, all things are ultimately good, whether we consciously view them as painful or not. We see this as bad. We view it as the person in hexagram thirty eight line 6, where the changes are seen as an 'evil' thing and we resist them. (If you have read my post on hexagram two, then you recognize the context of 'surrender' which can also be translated as non resistance.) When the changes come it is best not to resist them, but to go with the flow. Once we recognize that the changes are for our best, and are positives, we "lay down our bow."

It has been often the case for me in these types of readings, though surely not always, that the last hexagram will be at least partly the same as the first. Here the first reading turns into hexagram 64, and the last hexagram starts with 64. Both of these hexagrams deal with changes however in a different way. When the changes finish, a fresh new outlook and/or world emerges. At first it may seem dark, because we are only at the beginning, the threshold, of the new way. In many ways anxiety, confusion, and frustration trip us up, but if we just go with the flow, (hexagram 29 and hexagram 2), and do not resist, we find the light of the new kingdom is 'true.' We must not be fearful of, or recoil, to change. All karma is good, even if it is painful in the moment. And it leads to new understanding, and the threshold of a new era.

More on this later.
 

iams girl

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Old mental programs are certainly worth quelling, however like any journey, a little caution heeded by one's instincts may be worth following. Maybe rather than thinking of anxiousness, confusion, and frustration as tripping one up (although they certainly come across that way), they could be viewed as having kernels of truth allowing one to make conscious, balanced decisions about their validity.

Also, I'm not sure about "all karma is good" (actions having consequences that span generations, maybe). It's probably just semantics on my part, though, because I do believe in being able to "use" everything for good which seems to be a powerful path available which allows us to find that open window when doors close in our life or that light shining in our soul in the midst of the blindness and depression of earthly things.
 

gene

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Old mental programs are certainly worth quelling, however like any journey, a little caution heeded by one's instincts may be worth following. Maybe rather than thinking of anxiousness, confusion, and frustration as tripping one up (although they certainly come across that way), they could be viewed as having kernels of truth allowing one to make conscious, balanced decisions about their validity.

Also, I'm not sure about "all karma is good" (actions having consequences that span generations, maybe). It's probably just semantics on my part, though, because I do believe in being able to "use" everything for good which seems to be a powerful path available which allows us to find that open window when doors close in our life or that light shining in our soul in the midst of the blindness and depression of earthly things.

Hi Iams

I would say yes, it is a matter of semantics to a certain extent. Remember, I said that it is good even if it doesn't seem like it. And often it won't seem like it. Sometimes we go through hell in paying off karma. And yet, it is that very experience that wisens us, makes us stronger, and more prepared for the next phase of our lives. I could go on about this, but I want to keep relating things here to the I Ching. After all, the whole I Ching, and everything in it is a record of our karma, and when we live our lives we experience things that cause us to look at ourselves and many of us do that through the I Ching. Because the I Ching knows every aspect of every person, and hence gives us wisdom. Often we want to know the future without knowing ourselves. So the I Ching often doesn't directly answer our questions but throws an image of the situation back onto ourselves for our review and for us to meditate on it.

Hexagram three line three says "Whoever hunts deer without the forester only loses his way in the forest." The forest is our lives. And if we do not seek guidance, (hexagram two) we lose ourselves. So for several lifetimes possibly, we seek the answers in the I Ching, until such time as we as so composed that we find the answers within ourselves. Now according to Stephen Karcher's way of reading the I Ching, The lines of the odd numbered hexagram are the incentive and the following even numbered are the manifestation. I usually don't use this much but sometimes I find it useful. The lines of the manifesting hexagram are read in reverse of the incentive. Therefore hexagram four line four is the manifestation. The line says, "Entangled folly brings humiliation." If we engage in arrogance, (like me in the extreme unfortunately for me) we put ourselves above the teacher. The teacher is life itself. And the I Ching. Our karma also is our teacher. It is painful to go through, but leads us to the next step. Unfortunately, that next step is often more karma and more heartache and sorrow, But that moves us forward as well. When we accept this we become like the meditator in hexagram 52 who "no longer sees in the world the struggle and tumult..." He is totally accepting of whatever comes his way. In another place it says, "He/she goes out to meet his/her fate resolutely." When we can accept whatever comes our way we attain a strength that is greater than fate, (karma) itself.

I realize I am getting too windy here, and will stop. At least for now.
 

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