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Blog post: Drums in the lake

hilary

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Integrating trigram imagery into a full reading is sometimes tricky: we don’t, after all, know what the trigrams represented to the people who first wrote the book. So attempting to justify text in terms of trigrams can get one tied up in all sorts of over-elaborate knots.
However… those original writers were surely*aware of trigrams, and letting our own trigram-awareness permeate our readings (gently, and without trying to nail things down) can make for a more vivid understanding of a line.
For instance…
Hexagram 17, Following, is ‘thunder in the lake’. The Image draws guidance from this –
‘At the centre of the lake is thunder. Following.
A noble one at nightfall
Goes inside for renewal and rest.’
This has always seemed to me as though the creative energy of thunder itself were sleeping within the lake. It reminds me of the story I learned from SJ Marshall’s*Mandate of Heaven, of how the dragon over-winters on the lake-bed, and awakens in spring. There’s a season for waking, and a season for sleep, rest and renewal, and the noble one is like the dragon and knows both.
The Sequence adds to this sense that thunder itself is ‘going inside’. As the eldest son in the trigram family, thunder is the very first child trigram to appear in the Sequence, as the inner trigram of 3, Sprouting. On its next appearance, it ‘bursts forth from the earth’ in Hexagram 16 – where it’s the outer trigram, thunder above the earth – in harmony with the celebratory music of the ancient kings.
Then, in Following, the creative spark*is taken back inside. It rests*there all the way through hexagrams 21, 24, 25 and 27,*only emerging again in 32. So to me, it’s in Hexagram 17 that inner thunder begins to feel like the pulse of natural cyclic rhythm, one we can Follow through days or (as in the Images of 24 and 25) seasons.
Of course,*the Image is far younger than the original Yi, maybe 800 years or more, so you wouldn’t necessarily expect to find these ideas echoed in the original, Zhouyi text… of line 5, for instance, at the centre of the outer lake:
‘True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.’
And in that rather bland translation (mine!), they don’t seem to be. But just under the surface, it turns out that the character translated ‘excellence’, jia*?, has the components*? – ‘add, increase’, made of ‘strong’ and ‘mouth’ – and*?, a drum. Together this means what is fine, good and praised – something worth drumming about.
Here we are at the centre of the lake,*at the line that changes it to thunder and – in my imagination, at least… – synchronises it with the pulse of the inner trigram. ‘Truth to excellence’*as the fifth line and guiding principle of Following looks something like*being in rhythm – perhaps with the dragon’s heartbeat.
lake-pulse.jpg
 

charly

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...Hexagram 17, Following, is ‘thunder in the lake’. The Image draws guidance from this –
‘At the centre of the lake is thunder. Following.
A noble one at nightfall
Goes inside for renewal and rest.’
This has always seemed to me as though the creative energy of thunder itself were sleeping within the lake...
The Sequence adds to this sense that thunder itself is ‘going inside’...

So to me, it’s in Hexagram 17 that inner thunder begins to feel like the pulse of natural cyclic rhythm, one we can Follow through days or (as in the Images of 24 and 25) seasons...
... as the fifth line and guiding principle of Following looks something like*being in rhythm – perhaps with the dragon’s heartbeat...
Hi, Hilary:

I like much your lovely image of a dragon (maybe a chinese alligator) sleeping at the bed of the pond and people tuning in his heartbeat.

I also like much your «RENEWAL» for yan4, isn't it? I believe that it bears the idea of REBIRTHING or maybe BECOMING YOUNG AGAIN.

May I match your translation with the chinese received text?

泽中有雷
zhe2 zhong1 you3
LAKE CENTRE IS THUNDER
(Hilary) At the centre of the lake is thunder.

lei2
FOLLOWING
(Hilary) Following.

君子以向晦入宴息
jun1 zi3 yi3 xiang4 hui4 ru4 yan4 si1
NOBLE-ONE [ACCORDINGLY?] NEARING NIGHTFALL GOES-INSIDE «RENEWAL» REST
(Hilary) A noble one at nightfall Goes inside for renewal and rest.​

For comparison I will quote Wilhelm/Baynes and Legge:


Thunder in the middle of the lake: The image of FOLLOWING.
Thus the superior man at nightfall Goes indoors for rest and recuperation.​

Wilhelm/Baynes
Wilhelm said THE NOBLE instead of the SUPERIOR MAN that Baynes took from Legge.
Here apparently the order of the last two words was reversed, but RECUPERATION and RESTING are almost the same. Say, the noble one goes indoors only to sleep.

(The trigram for the waters of) a marsh and (that for) thunder (hidden) in the midst of it form Sui.
The superior man in accordance with this, when it is getting towards dark, enters (his house) and rests.​

Legge
Legge understood that the two last characters meant both the same: TO REST. But he adds between brackets where the noble entered: into his house.

Restoring the order of the characters and its different meanings you kept all the nuances of life and joy attached to H.17

The trigram Tui, the Joyous, whose attribute is gladness, is above; Chên, the Arousing, which has the attribute of movement, is below. Joy in movement induces following. The Joyous is the youngest daughter, while the Arousing is the eldest son. An older man defers to a young girl and shows her
consideration. By this he moves her to follow him.

Wilhelm/Baynes

Almost a scene of SEDUCTION.

Consistent, I believe with BEATING THE DRUM and LISTENING TO THE DRAGON'S HEARTBEATS.

All the best,

Charly
 

hilary

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Going inside and resting, Charly. Resting. :rolleyes:

Though then again, now I look up yan4 in Wenlin, I find it quotes Karlgren suggesting this might be 'a daily siesta in the harem'. The components of the character: under the roof, an old character for 'peace' made up of 'sun' and 'woman'. For the whole character - sun and woman under the roof - Sears' site has 'entertain, feast'. What does the noble one do after going inside? That's her/his own business.
 

charly

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Going inside and resting, Charly. Resting. :rolleyes:
Hi Hilary:

Only resting?, What happened with the RENEWAL?

Though then again, now I look up yan4 in Wenlin, I find it quotes Karlgren suggesting this might be 'a daily siesta in the harem'. The components of the character: under the roof, an old character for 'peace' made up of 'sun' and 'woman'. For the whole character - sun and woman under the roof - Sears' site has 'entertain, feast'. What does the noble one do after going inside? That's her/his own business.

And what was the business of the female or male noble when the night falls? I believe that first was the celebration of life and only after resting.

About yan4 I first revised Brad's Matrix Translation and then consulted Mathews:


attachment.php

Brad17DaXiang.jpg
Bradford Hatcher


attachment.php

Yan4Mathews.jpg
Mathews' Dictionary

I didn't know about the harem. What if the noble has not it?

A wild etymology could be: «A Woman Worshiping the Sun at the Shadow of the Noble Chamber» or «To Have in one's House a Woman Shining like a Sun».

All the best,

Charly
 
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Liselle

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Charly, I could see you publishing The Pornographic I Ching. You'd probably make a fortune.

(
27891367700_357aa4b14a_o.gif
:lalala:)
 

charly

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Charly, I could see you publishing The Pornographic I Ching. You'd probably make a fortune.

(
27891367700_357aa4b14a_o.gif
:lalala:)
Hi, Liselle:

Not the first time that I was said something alike. Maybe I look a little rude but I try to speak of love and sex, not of porn. But the things I speak of are not from my invention, they are writen in the Changes although sometimes in a hidden way.

Yours,

Charly
 
D

diamanda

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Liselle, I strongly believe Charly is absolutely right.
Love and sex are at the core of human existence.

Well ok, it can also be argued that survival is the most significant core of human existence.
But survival alone, without any love or sex, is precarious and colourless.
Love furthers and reinforces survival, and sex perpetuates the human race.
These fundamental values are absolutely needed to make the world go round.
Anything else is just an added bonus.
It just sounds right that the I Ching, THE book of life, is primarily about essentials: survival/love/sex.
It's blatant all over its text.

Then, in Following, the creative spark*is taken back inside.
The creative spark (the jun zi - the superior person) goes indoors, to feast and rest.
"Follow jun zi". If someone wants to be with the jun zi, they need to follow him/her.
Thus the one who has the upper hand, stimulates, then retreats as if they couldn't care less.
The weaker part of the equation (the "female") has to follow the strongest part ("male"), if they want any interaction with them.
"See you later in my tent, if you feel like it, but I'm not bothered if you don't", sort of.

In my experience, 17.5 > 51 speaks about falling in love with something or someone we consider excellent.
We fall in love (with something or someone we consider excellent) and we're in for a shock (a nasty one).
Shock meaning, "you truly have no idea what's coming next - it's not what you think", broadly speaking.
 
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charly

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Liselle, I strongly believe Charly is absolutely right.
Love and sex are at the core of human existence.

Hi Diamanda:

Many thanks for the defense. Even more valuable when I know that we don't always think the same.
Of course, love and sex are in the core of our existence. It means that, like all we have is temporary, but we cann't ignore it without serius consequences.

Most of the consults to the Changes are about relationships.

Well ok, it can also be argued that survival is the most significant core of human existence. But survival alone, without any love or sex, is precarious and colourless. Love furthers and reinforces survival, and sex perpetuates the human race.
These fundamental values are absolutely needed to make the world go round. Anything else is just an added bonus.
It just sounds right that the I Ching, THE book of life, is primarily about essentials: survival/love/sex.
It's blatant all over its text.

I cann't agree more with it. Even when the Changes speaks about other sort of things it used metaphors that are sexual o that have sexual connotations. Even the code of lines is a genetic code. Even the chinese script is seen as a great genetic methapor, where the caracters intermarry, have offsprings that continue the endless cycle.

The creative spark (the jun zi - the superior person) goes indoors, to feast and rest.
"Follow jun zi". If someone wants to be with the jun zi, they need to follow him/her.
Thus the one who has the upper hand, stimulates, then retreats as if they couldn't care less.
The weaker part of the equation (the "female") has to follow the strongest part ("male"), if they want any interaction with them.

Sometime I believe that JUNZI, the NOBLE CHILD is but one of the thousand names of God Phallus or of its female equivalent.

"See you later in my tent, if you feel like it, but I'm not bothered if you don't", sort of.
In my experience, 17.5 > 51 speaks about falling in love with something or someone we consider excellent.
We fall in love (with something or someone we consider excellent) and we're in for a shock (a nasty one).
Shock meaning, "you truly have no idea what's coming next - it's not what you think", broadly speaking.

(to be continued)



All the best,

Charly
 

canislulu

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While looking forward to what will "be continued" by Charly I have these thoughts...

Diamanda, I am surprised that your experience of 17.5 is one of being in for a "nasty shock". The line says "Good Fortune". I would have expected the shock to be a good one. I suppose that a "nasty shock" could be "Good Fortune" bringing something new but it feels "nasty" because it wasn't what was expected?

I like Hilary's "being in rhythm with the dragon's heartbeat" for "Following" and line 17.5 seems the moment when we connect with the sleeping creative energy to "Move" (51)? /dance to the rhythm of the creative energy?
 

charly

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While looking forward to what will "be continued" by Charly I have these thoughts...

Diamanda, I am surprised that your experience of 17.5 is one of being in for a "nasty shock". The line says "Good Fortune". I would have expected the shock to be a good one. I suppose that a "nasty shock" could be "Good Fortune" bringing something new but it feels "nasty" because it wasn't what was expected? ...
Hi, Jumping Mouse:

I believe to understand Diamanda. When somebody falls in love no mattters the goodeness as a lover. Knows only a few things about that person, almost nothig in comparison with what one knows after sharing some intimate experiences. And to know actually a person who one believed to know well is schocking.

And of course, good lovers have nasty minds.

Until the moment when we said our first hello,
litte did we know...​
Chales Singledon: Strangers in the night

I like Hilary's "being in rhythm with the dragon's heartbeat" for "Following" and line 17.5 seems the moment when we connect with the sleeping creative energy to "Move" (51)? /dance to the rhythm of the creative energy?

The Heavinly Dragon (the stars) and the Watery Dragon (river dragons) had a season to sleep, lake chinese alligators in the bottom of a pond. The Human Dragon (a phallic euphemism) has no season for making love, then, always rest after doing it.

Ancient chinese believe that humans depend on natural cycles but that natural cycles also need human help for appear timely. In Spring Comunal Festivals the youngs not only behave as imitation of the natural cycle but also helped with it the natural cycle to appear timely.

To be tunned with that Drangon´s Heartbeat, performing fertility rites, helped the natural cycle to the complete development of the Spring season with all its blesings for life in general and humans in special.

Much people saw these festivals as disreputable, nasty, dirty. But even kings believed in the effectiveness of emulation of the performance of natural, cosmic forces. That´s the model of the Da Xiang, indeed.

Much people thinked that a female in upper position and a male un lower position, or that a female outside and a male inside challenged the natural order of things. The Changes dodn't think so, except in much later traditionalists commentaries.

All the best,

Charly
 
D

diamanda

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Jumpingmouse - I've never so far experienced 51 as a pleasant shock. And Charly nailed it as to why it feels bad when we're stricken by falling "in love": we don't know much about the other person. Falling in love is basically strong erotic chemistry, an instinctual moment when our DNA somehow decides by itself that it would create good offspring with the strong and/or beautiful and/or intelligent object of our desire. The fact that the object of our desire seems to be strong/beautiful/intelligent or otherwise an excellent survivor, tells us nothing about if that person is compatible with our personality, or if indeed they would like us back. On top of that, when we strongly fall in love, we lose our marbles quite a bit, we behave as if we're stoned, we get tongue-tied, and other such unpalatable reactions. Hence by falling in "love" we are immediately placed in a position which is very inferior to that of the object of our desire. No wonder such stories usually end in tears.

The Heavinly Dragon (the stars) and the Watery Dragon (river dragons) had a season to sleep, lake chinese alligators in the bottom of a pond. The Human Dragon (a phallic euphemism) has no season for making love, then, always rest after doing it.
(...)
Much people thinked that a female in upper position and a male un lower position, or that a female outside and a male inside challenged the natural order of things. The Changes dodn't think so, except in much later traditionalists commentaries.
Charly could you please elaborate these two points? Where does the expression "Human Dragon" come from? And where in the Changes is it considered good for the female to overpower the male?
 

charly

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... Charly could you please elaborate these two points? Where does the expression "Human Dragon" come from? And where in the Changes is it considered good for the female to overpower the male?
Dear Diamanda:

For the 1st. question:

I used «Human Dragon» for the cases where the word LONG, dragon, appears applied to human beings, such as ancient rulers, emperors, very important people (VIP) in general, some of whom can be even sons of dragons and by consequence half dragons themselves.

Being the dragons the Most Macho Animals, addressing VIP as dragons meant that they shared the same manly attributes(1).

Going to the second:

In the Changes all change. Male / female balance of forces change throught the 64 hexagrams and the good or bad is also changeable from line to line and even depend on context. As far a I remember it is not said in the Changes if is good for the female to overpower the male or if is good for the male to overpower the female.

I believe that all abusive domination is odious.

Of course, in H.17 the female trigram (Lake, aka THE JOYOUS) enjoys the upper / outer position and the male trigram (Thunder, aka THE AROUSING) is in the lower / inner position. Did the Changes say that he doesn't enjoy there?

All the best,

Charly

______________________________
(1) Say, exceptional phalluses among common penises. There are also Dragon Ladies, worthy or wise women with some sort of exceptional moral authority.

Ch.
 
D

diamanda

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Charly thanks for explaining the 'Human Dragon', it makes perfect sense.

As far a I remember it is not said in the Changes if is good for the female to overpower the male or if is good for the male to overpower the female.
Totally agree. In fact it's ominous in both cases. See for example hexagrams 28 (where there's "too much male", and it contains a coffin allusion) and 62 (where there's "too much female", and it mentions mourning).

I believe that all abusive domination is odious.
I totally and wholeheartedly agree.

Of course, in H.17 the female trigram (Lake, aka THE JOYOUS) enjoys the upper / outer position and the male trigram (Thunder, aka THE AROUSING) is in the lower / inner position. Did the Changes say that he doesn't enjoy there?
Haha! Of course, he has caused this following, so I'm sure he enjoys.
 

charly

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...
Haha! Of course, he has caused this following, so I'm sure he enjoys.

I believe that H.17 Following, can be undestood as «BEING LED» or in a less pasive sense of «PURSUING ONE'S GOALS» and one of the main goals here is the pursuing of JOY.

See 17.5:

...
‘True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.’
And in that rather bland translation (mine!), they don’t seem to be. But just under the surface, it turns out that the character translated ‘excellence’, jia*, has the components – ‘add, increase’, made of ‘strong’ and ‘mouth’ – and a drum. Together this means what is fine, good and praised – something worth drumming about ...

The character for jia1, translated EXCELLENCE by Hilary, accepts also by extension the meaning of xi3, ​HAPINESS, JOY. (1) Both characters share the upper component drum and the lower component mouth. The upper part of drum in traditional characters (2) looks like shi4, scholar, senior, bachelor, official, soldier, but is NOT a MALE component in enjoying HIGHER POSITION.

The character for drum is a pictograph of an OLD DRUM, the resonance cilindric box pierced by a BIG STICK adorned like a MAYPOLE.


attachment.php


Rubbing of a Han Dynasty relief.

Did festivals where DRUMS were BEATEN have maybe connections with the JOY of Marriage?

(To be continued)

All the best,

Charly
_____________________________________
(1) xi3, double happiness, mainly relative to marriage. Maybe good luck for two.

(2) In seal, bronze or bone characters the upper part looked different.

Beating_the_Drum_5.jpg
Ch.
 
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