Can the similarity of stable situations be measured by the number of equal lines in the corresponding hexagrams?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Leerling said:

Can the similarity of stable situations be measured by the number of equal lines in the corresponding hexagrams?

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What do you mean by 'stable'?
How does one 'measure' a situation?
What is an 'equal line'?
What do you mean by 'corresponding' hexagram?
What is your native language?

Moss Elk said:

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

What do you mean by 'stable'?

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Without changing lines.

How does one 'measure' a situation?

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The situation itself is not measured. I want to measure to what extend two situations X and Y (with corresponding hexagrams x and y) are similar. And by measuring I mean giving a unique number s(x,y) called the similarity measure to each of the ordered pairs (x,y) of hexagrams. To be of any use the similarity measure should be such that the similarity between situations A and B is greater than the similarity between situations C and D if and only if s(a,b) is greater than s(c,d). But as yet I don't know if such a formalisation is possible.

What is an 'equal line'?

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The lines at the bottom of two hexagrams are called equal if and only if they are both yin or both yang. And the same for all lines of the two hexagrams higher up.

What do you mean by 'corresponding' hexagram?

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The hexagram corresponding to a situation is the hexagram that forms the best symbolic expression (in hexagram-form) of the situation.

What is your native language?

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Dutch.


I'm sorry if this all sounds to mathematical, but I don't know where else to discuss such matters.

ok, I'll start with this, in case you are under the impression that an unchanging hexagram refers to something that is not going to change.
Please disregard if you are not holding this thought.

An unchanging hexagram does not refer to a 'stable situation' that is not going to change. A reading is like a photograph of a subject that takes place within time.
The photograph does not change. but the people and objects do change.

Moss Elk said:

ok, I'll start with this, in case you are under the impression that an unchanging hexagram refers to something that is not going to change.
Please disregard if you are not holding this thought.

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I have read conflicting opinions on that one.

An unchanging hexagram does not refer to a 'stable situation' that is not going to change. A reading is like a photograph of a subject that takes place within time.
The photograph does not change. but the people and objects do change.

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Anyway the formalism can be expanded such that all pairs of hexagrams can be compared. In that case the lines at the bottom of two hexagrams are called "equal" if and only if they are both old yin or both young yin or both old yang or both young yang. And the same for all lines higher up.

Are you looking for a mathematical equation, as opposed to just looking at two hexagrams and counting the similar lines?

If you convert two hexagrams to binary numbers using broken = 0 and solid = 1, the XNOR function will yield a “similarity hexagram” where similar lines are 1.
Then for i = 0 to 5, the similarity hexagram AND 2^i, divided by 2^i, will be 1 for each similar line; add them up.

To extend it to include changing lines, you would need to use a second bit for changing vs. not, and include it in the equation.

Leerling said:

I have read conflicting opinions on that one.

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Yes, I am certain you have.
I have too.
The more works about Yi by different authors that you read, you will come to the realization that the majority of authors are..... how can I say it....
in error.

Now, about the point I was making:
my post on the following thread is a real life example that disproves the notion that an unchanging thread has any thing to do with an unchanging situation:

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?18330-Your-Experiences-with-Unchaning-Castings-Hexagram-37

To summarize:
A man went missing. police and news report were involved. I asked where the man was. At the exact moment of the question, he had just made it back Home with his Family. He has certainly left his house many times in the last few years.

russell said:

Are you looking for a mathematical equation, as opposed to just looking at two hexagrams and counting the similar lines?

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My idea is to first formalise some properties of the system of hexagrams that seem interesting from the viewpoint of the I Ching. For instance the similarity between hexagrams seems interesting. When that is done I want to prove lots of theorems in terms of the formalised properties. Hopefully there will eventually appear theorems that are no longer trivial but interesting and informative about the system of the hexagrams, and thereby about the world as seen through the lens of the philosophy of the I Ching. I fully realise that not everything of the Chinese world view will be represented in such a "lifeless" rationalised reconstruction, but I think it worthwhile nonetheless.

If you convert two hexagrams to binary numbers using broken = 0 and solid = 1, the XNOR function will yield a “similarity hexagram” where similar lines are 1.
Then for i = 0 to 5, the similarity hexagram AND 2^i, divided by 2^i, will be 1 for each similar line; add them up.

To extend it to include changing lines, you would need to use a second bit for changing vs. not, and include it in the equation.

Click to expand...

That will do the job.

@ Moss Elk

What do you think (non)moving lines point to?

I think Moss Elk is referring to our experiences of hexagrams with no moving lines...which manifestly certainly cannot be said to be 'stable'...that would just be meaningless....and we have a whole series of threads on how people experience unchanging hexagrams here...https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?16301-List-of-unchanging-hexagrams-threads and this one on the general meanings/thoughts https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/fri...periences-With-Unchanging-Castings-Hexagram-0

...but I think you are just speaking of 'stable' in terms of the abstract concept of the hexagram unrelated to how people use it or feel it. What I mean is you are using the word 'stable' only to refer to the state of the hexagram itself ( that is no change)lines not in relation to what they actually mean for people in their castings, I think ?

My idea is to first formalise some properties of the system of hexagrams that seem interesting from the viewpoint of the I Ching. For instance the similarity between hexagrams seems interesting. When that is done I want to prove lots of theorems in terms of the formalised properties. Hopefully there will eventually appear theorems that are no longer trivial but interesting and informative about the system of the hexagrams, and thereby about the world as seen through the lens of the philosophy of the I Ching. I fully realise that not everything of the Chinese world view will be represented in such a "lifeless" rationalised reconstruction, but I think it worthwhile nonetheless

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mmm especially since Yi itself is not lifeless, nor as you said elsewhere do people generally think of it as 'paranormal', not a word I'd use for how Yi communicates. Nor are wholly psychological 'explanations wholly, if at all, satisfactory. But you'd find that out for yourself if you went on using it. But for now you want to study it from the outside as it were in order to 'prove theorums'. Well I expect it is worthwhile, many people do gravitate to such approaches (I'm not one of them) and in the end it all adds to the fund of knowledge we have about Yi whichever angle we come from...all I would say is it's not a tame and lifeless oracle, it won't stay still for you to dissect, it will end up dissecting you and you will indeed as others have said wake up one day surrounded by mountains of books realising the enormity of what you've 'taken on' or realise it is you yourself that have been taken on and Yi wont put you down. Your arms and legs will flail as you struggle in the grip of the dragon Don't say you weren't warned.

BTW has anyone pointed you in the direction of Chris Lofting's work....? He is dead now but his work is all over the forum, one user name is 'lightofreason' and I think he has a book. His ideas it seems to me were akin to what you might be attempting so it's worth checking out

I can't find links to his stuff but someone might. It's certainly something you'd need to look at given your orientation to Yi as otherwise you might be reinventing the wheel in one or two areas...maybe, I don't know

Leerling said:

@ Moss Elk

What do you think (non)moving lines point to?

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Non Changing lines don't point to anything.

They are not applicable to a given question other than to know that 'the information in the line (that was not triggered to change)
is not relevant to my question.'

Found this one:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byl...field-author=chris+lofting&sort=relevancerank

Not exactly what I am trying to do, but close enough to buy and study this book also. And that will be enough books for now.