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General lessons learned about how to read Yi?

liquidity

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So I'm a fairly newbie Yi interpreter; I've been casting for about a year now. I'd love to know what lessons you've learned about casting and reading.

Here are my own idiosyncratic notes on what I've learned in my brief tenure:

-I used to cast with coins, but then I started comparing it with Clarity's online casting tool. Over time, I found the coin readings inaccurately and unduly negative. Using Clarity's online casting tool, the readings have been both more positive and more accurate. I have a slightly supernatural theory about this: that somehow my handling the coins inflicts them with a bit of my own pessimistic energy, whereas OC's casting tool has been used by so many for so long that it's immune to this.

-I love Jim DeKorne's Book of Changes at http://www.jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm. I always look up several translations & commentaries for each hex/line, and use what feels appropriate. My general favorite translation is Legge; I find his to be clearest and most accurate. Second is Wilhelm-Baynes. Third Blofeld. Everyone else comes after. For interpretations, I find Legge's Confucian commentary and Legge's own commentaries to be most useful, followed by Wing, and then DeKorne, and Anthony if available. Then everyone else.

-Controversial, probably: I have found the images to be not very useful. Once or twice they've illuminated things, but usually they add confusion.

-I often find Yi is speaking a kind of "sentence" with two hexagrams: e.g. 2.1 The Receptive > 24 Return might be "Be receptive TO the return." You can insert connective terms to see what fits.

-Often Yi will use the same hexagram or even the same line repeatedly over a period of time to mean the same topic in my life. It acquires a special additional meaning for me beyond its stated text.

-Indeed over time the hexes generally start to mean certain general themes to me that reference my life... so a vocabulary seems to be developing.

-With respect to spiritual questions, Yi often addresses the ego... so readings that indicate something "bad" for the ego may actually be good for the spirit, so to say. But this is not an ironclad rule.

-Yi cannot express timing well

-The situation is always changing. Readings seem to give a snapshot of the energies at the moment, but if the situation changes, it is worth doing another reading.

-If a question is unclear, I've found that asking for clarification, or venturing an interpretation and asking Yi whether the interpretation is sound, can be helpful -- mostly. Sometimes it can make things more confusing.

-There have been times when I've been utterly confused by readings, particularly when there are 4+ moving lines. Often I'll ask for clarification, but if that doesn't help, it seems to me that it's time to set Yi aside for a while and come back later.

So that's what I have for now...
 
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svenrus

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Hi,

You wrote: "I used to cast with coins, but then I started comparing it with Clarity's online casting tool. Over time, I found the coin readings inaccurately and unduly negative. Using Clarity's online casting tool, the readings have been both more positive and more accurate. I have a slightly supernatural theory about this: that somehow my handling the coins inflicts them with a bit of my own pessimistic energy, whereas OC's casting tool has been used by so many for so long that it's immune to this."
I do not agree. I've explained it in two earlier threads: A and B
 

rosada

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I've found the images make sense if you consider them to be telling us the lesson to be learned from the hexagram. Try plugging the word "Because" before the judgement and "therefore" before the image. (I use Wilhelm, not sure if this works with other translations.)
For example...
Hexagram 1 BECAUSE "The creative works sublime success. Furthering through perseverance" THEREFORE "The superior man makes himself strong and untiring." To make that a bit less cryptic think "Because ultimately creative intention will be successful if a person perseveres, therefore the smart person makes themselves strong and untiring [so they can persevere}."
Or consider...
Hexagram 4. BECAUSE "It is not I who seeks the young fool, the young fool seeks me. At first oracle I inform him, if he asks again it is importunity. If he importunes I give no answer. Perseverance furthers." THEREFORE "The superior man is through in all that he does." In other words, "Because the oracle will give you the best answer the first time you consult it, and further questions will not be answered, therefore the smart person doesn't ask more questions until he thoroughly understands the first answer"
 
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liquidity

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I do not agree. I've explained it in two earlier threads: A and B

So in your experience, the method doesn't matter, only the state of mind of the caster?
----
I've found the images make sense if you consider them to be telling us the lesson to be learned from the hexagram. Try plugging the word "Because" before the judgement and "therefore" before the image. (I use Wilhelm, not sure if this works with other translations.)

I like that! I see that can be very helpful. Though there are other hexes where it is less clear what is going on. Perhaps you have opinions about these? I'm using WB's translations below.

Take 55 Abundance:

BECAUSE "Abundance has success. The king attains abundance. Be not sad. Be like the sun at midday." THEREFORE "the superior man decides lawsuits and carries out punishments."

How does being not sad and like the midday sun connect with lawsuits and punishments?

Or 10 Treading.
BECAUSE " Treading . Treading upon the tail of the tiger. It does not bite the man. Success." THEREFORE "the superior man discriminates between high and low, and thereby fortifies the thinking of the people."

Again, what's the connection?

Or take 29 The Abysmal.

BECAUSE "The Abysmal repeated. If you are sincere, you have success in your heart, and whatever you do succeeds." THEREFORE "the superior man walks in lasting virtue and carries on the business of teaching."

Teaching -- why teaching?
 

moss elk

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Don't be sad or worry
Because:
Sadness clouds the judgement and drains the energy of the King who has important things to take care of: like ruling, deciding lawsuits and administering necessary punishments.

The jun zi distinguishes between (recognizes) High and Low (or powerful and weak)
because he doesn't want the tiger to eat him.
 
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svenrus

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#4 (So in your experience, the method doesn't matter, only the state of mind of the caster?)

Yes, or the time and situation in which You find yourself.

But I'm aware that it's a complicated discussion ie whether the random-program in a computer can make it for being the consultant or not.
 

rosada

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Moss Elk - I really appreciate the way you put the Judgement and the Image together for 55. I didn't see it. In fact, I don't have a clear understanding for how all the Judgements and Images are linked - maybe we should start a thread for this. Probably people would have a variety of ideas for why they go together.

Looking at 29 and trying to make sense as to what "Because if you are sincere you have success in your heart, and whatever you do succeeds, therefore the superior man walks in lasting virtue and carries on the business of teaching" might actually mean.

( I'm just trying to figure this out so Hilary or Brad or someone who knows what they are talking about will probably have better explanation but perhaps this can serve as a memory aid... )

Anyway, perhaps 29's Judgement/Image could be describing a situation where you know you're right so you don't make a big deal about it, you just quietly continue. Think of a classroom and there's a math problem. You announce your answer and maybe other kids are shouting out other numbers, other answers. You don't shout louder or argue, you know your answer is right. Eventually everyone calms down and asks you, "How did you do that?" and then the superior man sees this as a teaching opportunity.

Now why teaching? Why bother? Why not just keep walking on in our lasting virtue? Well Wilhelm in his comments about the image notes the trigram is doubled, we have K'an - danger - repeating, and with repetition situations become less scary, less dangerous, we learn how to handle them - like we're not scared when others disagree with our answers because after much repetition we know we know how to do the math. We know we know, so we have success in our hearts. So the image of 29. suggests a dangerous situation that through repetition - memorizing the multiplication table! - we've LEARNED to handle. So now why don't we just say the superior man carries on the business of learning for himself? Teaching implies there are other people learning from him. Why does he go on to teach? Well, first of all, teaching is an important part of the learning process. To really learn something one needs to lock it in by teaching it to someone else. (Think you understand the I Ching? Ever tried to explain it to someone? Ha! You quickly realize how much you don't know.) But also I think one of the main messages of the I Ching is that we are all following behind someone else and that someone else is behind following us. (Find a dragon to follow in Hex.1.2 "Dragon appearing in the field, it furthers one to see the great man." Find who's following you in Hex. 3, "It furthers one to appoint helpers.") So when one has mastered 29. The Abysmal, the truly superior person then teaches the next guy to master it too.

Interesting to note that after this learning/teaching hexagram comes hexagram 30. where we no longer have the teacher - student relationship but now we have two fire trigrams - two equals.
 
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rosada

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I've been thinking about Hexagram 44 and trying to make the judgement and the image fit together.
How about...

Because: The maiden is powerful. One should not marry such a maiden.
Therefore: Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands and proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.

Or to unscramble it a bit -
Thus does the prince act: While disseminating his commands and proclaiming to the four quarters of heaven he does not marry such a maiden [or get detained by her or sidetracked by anything else for that matter].

Or to unscramble it even more-

Look but don't touch!
 

liquidity

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Or to unscramble it a bit -
Thus does the prince act: While disseminating his commands and proclaiming to the four quarters of heaven he does not marry such a maiden [or get detained by her or sidetracked by anything else for that matter].

Or perhaps the prince is disseminating a warning throughout his kingdom about the dangerous, intrusive force?
 

rosada

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Hmm.. I'd never thought of it that way. I can see how that would make sense - the woman is powerful so the prince goes about spreading a warning to the four quarters of heaven.
But I don't think that's what it means. I think it's advice for someone who would be traveling about anyway and a caution not to get pulled off course.

I'm interested to know what others think.

Further thoughts: The symbol of woman in the I Ching can often be understood if you think of it as meaning the unconscious. In this hexagram I think the maiden is the strong unconscious desire to procreate, or any desire that is subliminally manipulating the will. Like the sirens singing in The Odyssey and luring men to their death. But then there's 44.5 which is such a blessing. Hmm...
Anyway, if you were particularly asking a question along the lines of "Should I warn the others?" then I can see how this hexagram could be reasonably interpreted as saying the prince is disseminating a warning but I think as a general rule it's describing going about one's business and the need to be aware you can be pulled off course.
m2c Rosada
 

liquidity

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In this hexagram I think the maiden is the strong unconscious desire to procreate, or any desire that is subliminally manipulating the will. Like the sirens singing in The Odyssey and luring men to their death.

Lovely analogy. Funny, I was just thinking about this story. Though of course Odysseus specifically DID listen to that deadly Sirens' song -- once he had bound himself to the ship's mast and told his men by no means to let him out no matter what he said until they were far past. So that could be a lesson too: one can dance with the maiden, one can play with fire, if one is equipped and prepared... and perhaps those are the most delectable games.
 

rosada

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Another way to think about the Judgement and the Image could be to say the Judgement is the setting for the story and the image is the moral of the story. thus hexagram 2 is a story about about a man who is lost far away from home. His horse knows the way back but he doesn't realize it. He is determined to find his way himself, even if he has to search the world - but he keeps going off in the wrong directions, like heading to the mountainous Northeast where it's cold and lonely and where the grumpy old sages live, He really should be heading south and west where the friendly folk are. The man has many many adventures so that when he finally does find his way home he has learned so much about the world and life that no matter where he goes from now on he will never be lost again. The moral of the story, "the superior man with breath of character - the one who has seen it all - carries, makes sense of, the outer world."
 

Peter Belt

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Thank you for your post Liquidity! I have been an I Ching enthousiast for some years, and "active student" for the past year, and your summary pretty much sums up what I have experienced too! And thank you all for your comments, I am really enjoying this thread.

Except maybe the topic about using a computer to throw... I guess that in the "Universal Wisdom" framework of things it could make sense that any tool works as a vessel for the message, but I personally (and having a PhD in electronics doesn't help in this case) that a computer just doesn't feel very... warm or alive, or too artificial, or whatever, but that's just me. But indeed, in any case I also have experienced that my energy influences the reading.
I found it works better when I meditate and try as much as possible to have a neutral state of mind, and finally not using my own hands in order to throw the coins, but use some kind of bucket (like the ones used for rolling dices), in order to make my energy interfere less.

I particularly like your line about timing, and how frustrating that can be sometimes (not to know what timeframe is the IC giving). When I really want to have an answer for a particular period of time I try defining that in the question, but I have the feeling that is not always taken into account. Anybody having thoughts/experiences about IC and timing?

Also, I would add (but this might be more appropriate as a whole separate Thread, unless someone tells me it has already been discussed), that I have found several different ways to make correlate the two hexagrams of a reading (when lines are moving).
Making a sentence as you pointed out is one of the ways to make them correlate and make sense together, but I have also found that:
- Sometimes the first Hex is the current situation, the second Hex is the development of the current situation (without a clear timing, however)
- Sometimes the first Hex is about the situation, the second Hex is about you in this situation
- Sometimes the second Hex is there to underline an (or The) important part of the reading. I like finding the redundant parts of the two Hex's if there are any. If there are, it means that redundant part is a really important part.
- Sometimes the two Hex's are just two separate advices (?) ("you might want to try this AND this").
Any other ways the two Hex's can combine in order to give a reading? Thanks
 

moss elk

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-Sometimes (often) the 2nd hex is a qualitative descriptor of the first hex.

Look at 8.5 (2) .

The sentence thing works,
and the line text is a synthesis of the two meanings.
 

bradford

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Liquidity-
I think it's dead wrong to dismiss the Da Xiang or Image text. The Xiao Xiang, or the images attached to the individual lines are largely useless, but the overall image has a lot to teach. You should stick with them until you get the connection because it's always there to say something important about the core meaning of the Hexagram, even if it doesn't seem to relate directly to the question.
 

Peter Belt

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Thank you Moss Elk and Bradford.
However Moss Elk, I'm not sure I grasp what you meant here (you mean the meanings of the two hexagrams?):

The sentence thing works,
and the line text is a synthesis of the two meanings.

I also wanted to add one general lesson I've learned: it is important to see not only what the IC says in a reading, but also what it doesn't say.
I have often had readings that were ambiguous (or that I didn't understand at the time), and was at least confident it wasn't pointing at some clear things like: danger, blockage, villains, etc.
 

angelatlantis14

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ok, a bit late to this thread...but one thing that drives me mad about casting coins mayself (as opposed to using a software application) is that I have time to calculate which hexes are possible after a few lines... like saying, "oh, this might come out as Hex 50, I do so hope it will, but the other option is Hex 28, I definitely do not want to get that answer..." I am sure you get my drift :)

This can take my concentration from the actual question, trying to "will" or prevent myself from willing a specific answer.

In the online version I feel less controle and therefore it goes easier for me.

And yes, in my experience it does not matter too much which one you choose - as has been said before, the important thing is the right frame of mind.

As for the images, I am conflicted - often I do not see the connection between the reading and the image. In some cases the image is a a beautiful addition, as in Hex 62 where it resonates better with me than the actual oracle. Above some good examples for this have been shown. But based on what Bradford says, I'll definitely give it more attention!
 

Peter Belt

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ok, a bit late to this thread...but one thing that drives me mad about casting coins mayself (as opposed to using a software application) is that I have time to calculate which hexes are possible after a few lines... like saying, "oh, this might come out as Hex 50, I do so hope it will, but the other option is Hex 28, I definitely do not want to get that answer..." I am sure you get my drift :)

Absolutely, that's so funny! I eventually just quickly note the numbers (instead of the lines, I found it helps me NOT visualizing what Hex is unfolding...) trying not to look to the global picture. :rofl:
 

Lavalamp

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Pondered this subject for some time. What I have come up with:

55 is in a time of success and prosperity, a lot is going on it is busy. You smile at the customers a lot. Sometimes people try to rip you off and you have to sue them, sometimes consumers need legal protection from unscrupulous merchants or service providers. Comes with prosperity, may also be about taxes.

The danger in 29 is instructive, not destructive and leads to success. Like sparring in martial arts or Olympic competitions. You practice practice and flow on like water to success, it is about how you learn and so too about how you teach.

Hex 44 is about powers of persuasion. The Prince convinces the people and the warlords his ideas are useful for everyone to go along with, you cannot take people where they will not go. The woman convinces you to give her your seed and brings forth an heir. You have to be careful how you use your powers of persuasion, and of how others use them on you.

Something like that.

- Lavalamp
 

Lavalamp

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Hex 4 just means when you are the pupil, respect your teacher. It is describing the way old Confucianist masters treated their pupils. Digest the material at hand throughly, chew it before you swallow and ask for more.

Hex 10 treading, know who you are dealing with and be supportive. If they don't bite you - and they well could - you are successful.

Hex 1 the creative - It is good to be creative, but you have to follow through. You have to do the work to realize your creation, or you just leave a lot of half finished work laying around.

I think it is too easy to look at the Yi and think of everything in an esoteric manner when what we really need is a practical understanding and application of the change. Perhaps it is more classical physics than Quantum mechanics.

- Lavalamp
 

bradford

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Something like that.
- Lavalamp

What 55, 29, and 44 have in common is a strong need for focus.
Your 44 is a bit weak. It's not about your own powers of persuasion, except in persuading yourself to exercise restraint.
 

Lavalamp

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What 55, 29, and 44 have in common is a strong need for focus.
Your 44 is a bit weak. It's not about your own powers of persuasion, except in persuading yourself to exercise restraint.

Sometimes you could be the prince - the person it's talking about that's 44 could be you - depending.

- LL
 

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