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adarkana

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I was recently visited by a person with whom I used to have a very troubled but extremely meaningful relationship. With much difficulty, over the past three years we've renewed our conversation (we were completely out of contact for four years prior to that) & lately have been speaking with increased frequency. I hadn't seen him in two years, but this time, for the first time since our original breakup, estrangement seemed genuinely a thing of the past.

After a couple weeks thinking things over I sent an email expressing this perception to him. And added that, while these episodic meetups constitute an acceptable friendship, I would prefer time between meetings be measured in increments shorter than years.

I don't think the problem was with the email itself -- it expressed exactly what I wanted to say, and I have no regret in sending it. But while I assumed it would take awhile for him to respond, as it always does, the note received neither acknowledgement nor answer; which after a week began to make me miserable.

Eventually I sent a text, noting that this "pause" (his term for these characteristic communication gaps) is puzzling me. We had not been in touch at all since he drove off, and I began to wonder whether he'd even received the message, was dead, etc. Perhaps a wiser person would have confined the note to "nice to see you, hope you got home ok" -- that would not be me.

I'll spare the Forum further contretemps but basically, I still don't have a clue what's going on here. He acknowledged receipt of my email & promised a response "soon" but I have known that word in his vocabulary to mean something very different than most. I'm not expecting anything more in the near future, if ever, and am thoroughly tormented by self-doubt regarding my perception of things.

After days of driving myself crazy with the coins & my friends crazy with the telling, I decided to cast one question re: what the outcome of this is going to be with regard to the relationship, with the explicit intent of posting it here for advice. I got 53.1.

I've gotten 26.6 & 13.5 countless times regarding the resolution of this specific communication roundelay, which I only take to mean the "right" thing to happen is going to happen. I don't take it to mean he's actually going to answer, answer in the affirmative, or anything else. So for the purpose of posting I decided to focus on the potential furthering of the relationship itself, vs. the outcome of a communication issue that sounds even dumber to me typing here than it feels.

53.1 seems an equivocally encouraging omen to me, though in application to an affair that has been going off & on for eight years it seems more descriptive than predictive. And I am so infatuated with the hope of it working out that I'm straining for excuses, including the excuse that with this person I am always straining.

I really appreciate any insights & promise in any event to post a follow-up for all the fellow lonelyhearts out there.
 

Trojina

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After days of driving myself crazy with the coins & my friends crazy with the telling, I decided to cast one question re: what the outcome of this is going to be with regard to the relationship, with the explicit intent of posting it here for advice. I got 53.1.

This is a line of great uncertainty whilst people come to terms with each other I think. I think it is too early to be thinking in terms of outcomes at all, this is still very much a 'work in progress'.

At this point, having looked in my journal for my own experiences, I think things can either go on to develop well or come to a bit of a dead end. However I think the dead ends come with other lines as well. I think you just need to accept things are uncertain and know that there will be an on-going negotiation that isn't always dependent on words even though the line says 'there are words-not a mistake'. In my experience words can be actions, the pace of communication, the unsaid things as well and it all takes a very long time since this is 53. it certainly isn't a mistake to try to work things out, the line says that. The line changes to 37, you need to feel safe in the relationship but you aren't there yet.

It isn't possible at this time to think in terms of outcomes, Yi is saying things are still being worked out. This isn't a dead end nor a finale, it's an opening, a time of re-negotiation so everyone feels comfortable and it can take a very long time

I've gotten 26.6 & 13.5 countless times regarding the resolution of this specific communication roundelay, which I only take to mean the "right" thing to happen is going to happen. I don't take it to mean he's actually going to answer, answer in the affirmative, or anything else. So for the purpose of posting I decided to focus on the potential furthering of the relationship itself, vs. the outcome of a communication issue that sounds even dumber to me typing here than it feels.

You clearly have strong feelings about him which increase your sense of urgency about settlement of terms of the relationship. Remember 53 is a very long slow courtship with obstacles at the beginning such as you have encountered. (you aren't writing in the relating hexagram which would help)
 

adarkana

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Everything you say here sounds right, and I realize patience is required for any progress. Though it's impossible to understand his silence as anything other than a negative sign, as you say this isn't really about words. I just hope this isn't the pause that goes on forever.

With regard to 26.6>11, you're right -- I've drawn the single moving line multiple times, so the relating hexagram should be considered. 13.5 has often been in combination with at least one other line, though, not always relating to 30.

Though the words of 13.5 would seem positive, some translations equivocate. I did find this version of the comment kind of amusing:

From the Great Treatise:

"The Master said on this:
The ways of good men different seem.
This in a public office toils;
That in his home the time beguiles.
One man his lips with silence seals;
Another all his mind reveals.

But when two men are one in heart,
Not iron bolts keep them apart;
The words they in their union use,
Fragrance like orchid plants diffuse."

We'll see!
 

adarkana

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long yi was kind enough to perform the following analysis of this situation, solicited via private message. I always find his posts in the Shared Readings forum of interest, because the method of interpretation is not all that commonly used in my part of Brooklyn. I am now trying to learn this method myself and, as sometimes happens, find the process of engaging with the I Ching in a new way very calming.

===============================================================================

Specifically, this regards what is going on between myself & another person right now (a bewilderment to me) & whether the prospects for the future are such that I should abide the pain. If he is genuinely confused that's one thing, but if I am being victimized/used totally another. He is giving me very little to go on at present.

With this question in mind I just drew 32 unchanging -- 9:22pm EST. I am not sure whether the lack of moving lines is a problem.

===============================================================================

Hexagram 32

Hexagram 32 has 3 yang solid lines and 3 ying broken lines. This means a triangle relationship.

Hexagram 32 composed of zhen (mature male) as upper trigram, and sun (female) as the lower trigram. In old days, man work outside and woman stays home. If one side force the other side to marriage, there will be a lot of trouble afterwards because this stable arrangement is disturbed. This type of relationship takes a very long term to reach an agreement for marriage. It is a very boring relationship afterall.

The thunder zhen is above the sun (wind) . The question is that how do they interact (wind and thunder).
Kylin 32.6 ying: wife xu earth (guest)
Tiger 32.5 ying: officer shen metal
Tengshe 32.4 yang: child wu fire
Turtle 32.3 yang: officer you metal (host)
bird 32.2 yang: parent hai water
dragon 32.1 ying: wife chou earth

Time domain
Year: you metal (hollow: chen earth, si fire)
Month: you month (hollow: yin wood, mao wood)
Day: mao wood (hollow: zi water, chou earth)
Hour: Hai water (wu fire, wei earth)

Supporter: zi water, shen metal
Career: mao wood
Luck: chou earth, hai water
Persistent: yin wood
Movement: si fire
Fling: zi water
Intelligence: wei earth

32.2 is the relationship line parent hai water (bird) which is in conflict with another man at 32.5 office shen metal (tiger). There is disagreement over the relationship issue. I do not know who is this man, but the shen metal man can support the relationship.

There are two male in the hexagram 32.5 and 32.3. Since 32.2 is the host line, the officer line you metal [hereinafter, you metal] is him. He is also the same you metal as supported by the year and the month. Since he is in the host line, you miss him. In addition, he sits in the house of marriage, you considered him a candidate.

There are two females in this hexagram at 32.1 and 32.6. Since 32.6 is the guest line, the wife line xu earth is who he cares about. This female is not you.

Wife xu earth couples to the officer you metal. He is attached to her. In addition, wife xu earth couples to your house of marriage, you man is not available to you.

Since line 6 xu earth produces the metal and also couples to the you metal, this is not easily breakable. As a result, if the female is not you, he has someone in his mind, coupled to and this is why he is not interested in giving you an answer. If line 6 is the rival, she is far away from you.

The general issue of two officer line and two wife line means that both male and female have choices. They are not bound to the other individual.

[NB: The following being for me, adarkana hair on fire, the most important revelation of the reading]

Metal is the male (both of them shen metal, you metal). The tomb of metal is chou earth (place of rest and storage). 32.1 wife line is chou earth which is also day void.

[NB: Whew]

The wife line at present has no power to hold and retain the male (both) because she is weak in the time domain.

[NB: Dear Reader, I knew.]

The relationship in general does not work because the male is not interested. [enough to break the pattern] You have to do your analysis to decide who are the two males and the other female. I have no idea. Sometimes, they can also be parents or other parties.

You have to sort out who are the players in this triangle relationship and of course, there is always one loser who must drop out.

Hexagram 32 is a strange hexagram. Some people think of it as a marriage, but after a very long time to piece it together and that relationship is below expectation. Others view it as the lack of fate and destiny to be together, then why force it to sufferat the end.

[32 unchanging: Hotel California]

Hex 53.1 also has 3 yang lines and 3 ying lines who confirm that is a triangle relationship. 53.1 means you do not understand the situation and do not have a clear picture of the situation.

Things will be easier for you if you can piece together the parties involved.

Either the choice of reconnect or restart with someone new is your choice. The issue is not who you get, but who can lead to a stable and harmonious relationship in the longer term.
 
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Trojina

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long yi was kind enough to perform this analysis of the situation, solicited via private message, and granted permission to repost. Instructive above all else -- a read/weep keeper.

No I'm afraid it isn't instructive if you asked Yi intending to interpret via a text based method. That is yes it is kind of Long Yi to do an analysis for you but you do need to choose which way of looking at the I Ching you are going for because 32uc really does not mean this.............

Hexagram 32

By fate and destiny, the two individuals (you and him) will not be together.

...unless one is using an entirely different system of interpreting with an entirely different way of understanding the hexagrams as Long Yi is.

If you cast with the intention of interpreting via Long Yi's method it may apply but if you asked intending to interpret using the broad usual meaning of the text of Yi then how can it apply as it means exactly the opposite ?

So you need to choose, both cannot apply.



Specifically, this regards what is going on between myself & another person right now (a bewilderment to me) & whether the prospects for the future are such that I should abide the pain. If he is genuinely confused that's one thing, but if I am being victimized/used totally another. He is giving me very little to go on at present.

With this question in mind I just drew 32 unchanging -- 9:22pm EST. I am not sure whether the lack of moving lines is a problem.

So are you saying you now think 32 uc means this


By fate and destiny, the two individuals (you and him) will not be together.

...then well you are understanding 32 as pretty much nothing recognisable about 32. You have looked up/read about 32 I presume ? I thought you were in CC (?) so you have access to wikiwing ?

If Long Yi's method suits you that's fine, I have no problem with that, but I think it is misleading to say some of these interpretations are 'instructive'. They are only instructive if one is oneself using Long Yi's system or aims to do so. Otherwise they might be highly confusing for a newbie interpreting Yi by reading the text. The content of the text of Yi and Long Yi's interpretation are a million miles apart. No problem with that as long as you are clear that you need to be clear which system you are consulting by.

If you are aiming to learn, follow and interpret via Long Yi's method then other interpretations by text just won't apply. You can take pretty much any Yi book you own or look in Wikiwing here and I don't think you are going to find that 32 uc 'means' this

Hexagram 32

By fate and destiny, the two individuals (you and him) will not be together.

Long Yi in his system thinks it means that and that is fair enough but what I am saying to you is I do not consider it 'instructive' because it would confuse most people unless they already understood Long Yi is using a very different system to interpret.

But yes it is very kind of Long Yi to do this for you but if I had known you were wanting to interpret by his specific method I would not have responded initially because his method is a completely different approach and doesn't really overlap or complement with interpreting via the text and so on. So if aiming to interpret by one method it is less confusing for you to stick to that one method. 32uc in reading the text, the Image and Judgement and so on just does not say destiny means you won't be together, it doesn't say that, so if you go with Long Yi's method you'd have to disregard all the meanings of 32uc associated with the text. See what I mean, you'd need to be clear before casting as to which system you are going with. If you have Wilhelm or Hilary's book or have looked at Lise's site you can see clearly they don't write that 32 uc means 'destiny says you won't be together'. So what are you going to do, which are you going to choose, what they write of 32 or what Long Yi writes about 32. It's your choice but you do need to choose otherwise you are hopelessly confused.
 
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adarkana

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I believe Long Yi uses the Na Jia method in his analysis, possibly in combination with other techniques with which I am not yet familiar. Because I am interested in exploring alternative means of interpretation & have struggled with the book I have on Na Jia, I contacted Long Yi & asked if s/he would be willing to perform analysis on a cast done specifically for my current situation.

I do get what you are saying about Long Yi's interpretation not being in conformity with the norm on 32. I think this is because, so far as I can tell, the Na Jia "take" on 32 is a bit different. So far as I can tell, much of this analysis would apply to anyone who draws 32 unchanging, and in absence of a good Na Jia guidebook I find this instructive.

Maybe there are ways of thinking about 32 unchanging that are appropriately pessimistic for a would-be lover, such as myself, to consider? For example, several 32 uc anecdotes in the archive feature unanswered texts & emails sent by a female to a mixed-signals male... it's a bit hard to take that as coincidental. And a bit baked into the hexagram, if read using the Na Jia method.

On the other hand there are sections like this:

Wife xu earth couples to the officer you metal. He is attached to her. In addition, wife xu earth couples to your house of marriage, you man is not available to you.

Since line 6 xu earth produces the metal and also couples to the you metal, this is not easily breakable. As a result, if the female is not you, he has someone in his mind, coupled to and this is why he is not interested in giving you an answer. If line 6 is the rival, she is far away from you.

This seems very specific to my situation. My love interest, though long separated from his wife, is still married; which would certainly matter if I wished to marry him myself. I don't, but this would be a very useful insight if I didn't know the marital score & had ambitions that way.

And I admit to not being keen at all on this part -- which also would seem specific to me & my question, though I haven't been able to figure out yet how Long Yi got there:

By fate and destiny, the two individuals (you and him) will not be together.

Person A walks from North to South, while person B walks from East to West. At the cross intersection, they met, chat and you will not alter your path to join him on his path in moving forward and so is him.

Ouch.

You may be right this post will confuse more than enlighten -- if the thread needs to be moved elsewhere, I hope someone with moderator power will do so. I've just always been interested in the way Long Yi's posts to various threads in Shared Readings play out, and thought it might offer something of interest to others when (if) this one reaches any sort of bookend.
 

Trojina

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I believe Long Yi uses the Na Jia method in his analysis, possibly in combination with other techniques with which I am not yet familiar. Because I am interested in exploring alternative means of interpretation & have struggled with the book I have on Na Jia, I contacted Long Yi & asked if s/he would be willing to perform analysis on a cast done specifically for my current situation.

I do get what you are saying about Long Yi's interpretation not being in conformity with the norm on 32. I think this is because, so far as I can tell, the Na Jia "take" on 32 is a bit different. So far as I can tell, much of this analysis would apply to anyone who draws 32 unchanging, and in absence of a good Na Jia guidebook I find this instructive.

I think you have misunderstood me completely... ...um...yes obviously, as I said many times, it's a whole other method, that's okay. What I was saying to you was it isn't instructive unless you want to use Nia Jia or whatever the method is. So yes sure it is instructive for you . I don't think it's instructive for me or people who aren't into Na Jia or whatever the method is called. I guess I thought you were saying how everyone could learn from this and I was thinking 'er no 32 doesn't mean that at all,,,unless you use a totally different method' as he has.

I thought I made it clear I reckon you need to choose before casting which method you are going to go by otherwise you end up with totally different interpretations of hexagrams etc


Maybe there are ways of thinking about 32 unchanging that are appropriately pessimistic for a would-be lover, such as myself, to consider? For example, several 32 uc anecdotes in the archive feature unanswered texts & emails sent by a female to a mixed-signals male... it's a bit hard to take that as coincidental. And a bit baked into the hexagram, if read using the Na Jia method.

Well I think it is helpful to choose your method of interpreting before casting if one is a huge diversion from the other. I think you are looking at it backwards. 32uc, very broadly, indicates things going on as they are. It cannot by itself be 'pessimistic for a would be lover'. That just doesn't make sense. If you were parted from someone, depending on how the question was phrased, it could conceivably indicate you might go on being parted from them. Pessimism for lovers certainly isn't 'baked into ' 32 unless you use one of these methods, such as Na Jia where everything means something else entirely.



On the other hand there are sections like this:

This seems very specific to my situation. My love interest, though long separated from his wife, is still married; which would certainly matter if I wished to marry him myself. I don't, but this would be a very useful insight if I didn't know the marital score & had ambitions that way.

That doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making to you. :confused: I was not questioning the accuracy or value of different methods but saying to you that when they vary so drastically you need to go with one or the other methods.

And I admit to not being keen at all on this part -- which also would seem specific to me & my question, though I haven't been able to figure out yet how Long Yi got there:
Ouch.

Again what you are saying has nothing to do with my points. Maybe you could re-read my post because you seem to be writing an answer to points I've not raised.

You may be right this post doesn't belong in Shared Readings --

What ! ? What what what ...am I in a parallel universe ? I have not said that this doesn't belong in Shared Readings. If you think I even intimated that do show me where :confused:

if the thread needs to be moved elsewhere, I hope someone with moderator power will do so
.

:confused: why on earth do you think it needs moving ? I haven't said anything at all about it needing be moved, where on earth do you get that idea from.

Good Grief of course it doesn't need moving. Why would it need moving ? Long Yi's interpretation does belong here, of course it does where else would it belong. I don't think you have read my post because you are imagining things I've not said at all.


I've just always been interested in the way Long Yi's posts to various threads play out, and thought it might offer something of interest to others when (if) this one reaches any sort of bookend.

That's fine, you don't have to justify it and you are right it may be of interest to others of course. I guess it is instructive to those who use that method or want to. It's not instructive to everyone, not to me. But there's no reason to move it or anything.

I guess I was baffled as to why you suddenly thought everyone should find it instructive, particularly me who had responded to you but you just meant you found it instructive and others who liked that method might find it instructive yes ?



I think if you go on trying to use both methods together you will be really lost. Now I know you want to interpret via Na Jia etc I can leave your threads to those who want to use that method. Of course it might help to state early on that you want to interpret using a rule based method like Na Jia and all those other methods based on rules and calculations I don't know the names of.
 
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adarkana

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Using both methods together helps me understand Hexagram 32 better. I don't know how else to say it.

And really did think it would be of interest to others to add this 32 reading to the thread. Usually long yi just applies the Na Jia method to whatever hexagram the user has already thrown & posted to the Forum. There's no special casting method -- all I did was ask my question & toss three coins six times, as usual. Had I been sure long yi would see it & comment, I'd have posted directly here to begin with.

That said -- I did remove the "fate and destiny" line from my 32 post, and add a note about why long yi's commentary is even there. I take your point about further confusing newbies, or anyone trying to learn the original text.

But what I don't get is why I shouldn't be able to value or appreciate your comments (which I very much do/did) & also have an interest in Na Jia? Clarity is where I learned about it -- several users on here recommended a book (The Authentic I Ching) which sat on my shelf these past few years, and is now getting a good workout.
 
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adarkana

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p.s. My own more traditional take on 32 unchanging would be that my relationship with "you metal" (as I will henceforth call him) was not changed by either the visit or email. Less brutal than fate & destiny conspiring to deny me, but still not what I want to hear.
 
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deusa

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I do like the fact ypu posted Long Yi's take on your reading. I understand why it doesn't confuse you to complement both typea of analysis.
It is

I also like very much Trojina's takes on our readings.
 

Trojina

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And really did think it would be of interest to others to add this 32 reading to the thread.

Of course. There is no reason you shouldn't add the reading.


What I don't quite get is why I would be unable to value or appreciate your comments (which I very much do/did) because I also have an interest in Na Jia. Clarity is where I learned about it! Several users on here recommended a book (The Authentic I Ching) that does a decent job of covering the basics.

Well I guess to believe in approaches like Na Jia (never heard of that before today) or weng wang gua etc etc you'd have to believe there already existed a particular destiny in everything in your life of which you were the passive subject. You'd also have to believe all this could be ascertained by calculations. Whilst I do not wholly disbelieve in destiny in the broad sense that entire approach is not at all what the I Ching is to me. So I'm thinking if you take that path then you must have an entirely different perception to me of what the I Ching is and what it's for so my kind of interpretation just wouldn't/couldn't apply at the same time.

That said -- I did just remove that "fate and destiny" line. I take your point about further confusing newbies, which no one wants. And also fervently hope that part of the interpretation is wrong

Hmm I'm not sure Long Yi will appreciate you editing his interpretation. I mean that is his interpretation and he has every right to post it here. I wasn't objecting to it, in that it is obvious he's using a totally different way of looking at hexagrams.

I was picking at you calling it 'instructive' as in it sounded like 'this is how you do it'. Probably I'd have been better to say nothing. Although it doesn't make sense to me to try to use 2 totally different approaches where the hexagrams themselves mean entirely different things.

p.s. My own more traditional take on 32 unchanging would be that nothing about my relationship with "you metal" (as I will henceforth call him) was changed by either the visit or email. Less brutal than fate & destiny conspiring to deny me, but still not what I want to hear.

That's how I'd be inclined to see it too. Or rather despite what happened with the visit or the email the relationship has it's own kind of steadiness that's not so easily blown off course. It may not be satisfactory for you and yet it does appear to be a lasting connection. Personally I'd take it as a very reassuring answer that nothing has really gone off course. It did occur to me he may not have received the email, they do seem to go missing at times although you did follow up with a text and he surely ought to respond to that at least. It might be he just doesn't know what to say so puts it off. However I don't think from 32uc the connection is broken down.

You cannot go with your idea of 32uc and Long Yi's at the same time and make any sense of it. Well I understand you want as many angles as possible in general but here you now have, in this instance, 2 completely separate views of 32uc. They are not even comparable, they are two totally different things, very separate models of thought. In such cases where a person believes in/wants these approaches I personally prefer to take distance, leave them to it as I have no resonance with these approaches whatsoever as they, no doubt would have no resonance with mine. These approaches do not mix although as you say generally they run along side by side with no problem. There is no problem with this as such it's just in terms of your own practical interpretation you do need to decide which approach to take prior to casting.

I think if for example I cast intending to use weng wang gua or something else then possibly that might apply for interpretation but when these methods are applied when a person hasn't cast with that method in mind it doesn't make much sense to use them IMO. I don't mean just for you but for anyone. However I do appreciate people like a variety of responses even when systems used completely clash.
 
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moss elk

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32 unchanging:
Things are going to keep going the way they have been, he isn't interested in changing the way he is going about things.
(his non interest with the email tells you this... again)

Here is a question to ask yourself:
Am I happy about this, is this the kind of relationship I want?

No system of any kind is needed to understand this.
 

adarkana

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This is not how I see the tension. I think of I Ching as an algorithm people have been collectively wrestling with 3k+ years, with many paths; always scouting new routes. All methods disappoint in the end, but exploring an unfamiliar one is always instructive & so, fun. Ignoring the fact my hair is on fire -- not throwing shade.

I still remember the first time I witnessed someone consulting I Ching, in the parlor of an aggrieved Boston Brahmin. That yellow-backed WB edition was for awhile on a lot of hippie shelves too & though it took years eventually I got to understand the oracular instrument enough to play it, amateurishly, in a way that spared me a lot of unforced errors. It is my favorite book in any language & I will spend the rest of my life in 32 with it.
 
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adarkana

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Apologies for deadposting (as I've seen this practice described) but there have been a few developments so I thought I'd briefly update.

After a couple months' silence I dropped my friend another gentle line, and we resumed communication. He told me he had been having some health issues, which I realized were more serious than he had been letting on when he finally visited again, in late December. Though I hoped he would accompany me on a brief vacation, to a place we both enjoy going, the timing did not work; we just spent a very nice evening together at my place. Then he drove off & I made the trip solo, during which we were in pleasant communication & have been since.

Though far from the desired resolution (can't remember ever casting a more on-the-nose 54.3 than the one I got just now, asking about all this) it's also not the renewed estrangement I dreaded at the start of this thread. Recapturing the intensity of our earlier relationship is surely a lost cause, but the intimacy is still evolving. Whether it will ever be "enough" is the condition 53.1, 32 uc & 54.3 all seem to address.
 
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