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About the 1st Hexagram: Ch'ien

Plutonian

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Hi there! So I'm new at the forum, so first of all: I'm so very glad about finding this community. It made me really happy. I'm from Argentina, and I started reading the book some months ago. I'm getting into it pretty deeply, and I decided that I'd try to do some kind of transcription/reinterpretation of the writings in the hexagrams, not to change their meaning, but more to expand the ideas with a different vocabulary and some ideas of my own. So, basically i wanted to share with you a couple of sentences i put together after analyzing the Sentence of Ch'ien, the Creative, and i was hoping you could give me some feedback on how i configured them, and if I'm too far away from the original concept.So the first Sentence, in richard willhelms version, traduced to spanish, uses 4 key words: elevated or great maybe? (elevado), accomplishment (logro). propitiate (propiciando) and perseverance (perseverancia).The first to keywords speak of the act of creation, and the 3rd and 4th speak of the conservation of the creation and of the act of creation itself, as far as i understood it. So, meditating on these words and on the sentence itself, i wrote the following:"Lo Creativo persevera en expandir las ideas y darles forma (propiciarlas) con su fuerza" "The Creative perseveres on expanding and forming the ideas (propitiate them) with his strenght"and/or "Lo Creativo expande las ideas y les da forma con su fuerza; crea lo que corresponde al TAO y en este obrar se muestra perseverante""The Creative expands and forms the ideas with his strenght; it creates what corresponds to the TAO and in this work it shows itself persevering (or, he perseveres in this work)"So, those are the two final sentences i've arrived to. If you'd like to read the whole interpretation on the abstraction of the hexagram tell me and i'll publish it here. It'd be in spanish though.
 

moss elk

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I decided that I'd try to do some kind of transcription/reinterpretation of the writings in the hexagrams, not to change their meaning, but more to expand the ideas with a different vocabulary and some ideas of my own.

Hi Plutonian,
At first I thought you meant you wanted to write commentary on Yi, or notes.

Then it seemed like you were saying that you want to reTranslate Yi.

But maybe you meant both?
I just want to advise for you to make the distinction clear in your mind. Otherwise, what can result could only be called a corruption of Yi.

Are you going to learn Chinese?
 

rosada

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Welcome!
I'm interested in reading your whole interpretation! Unfortunately I don't read Spanish but maybe you could translate it bit by bit and post it here on this thread, one line each day? That way it wouldn't be too heavy a burden on you and people would probably get more out of your work if you post it in small pieces anyway.

Perseverance furthers!
Rosada
 

Plutonian

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No, of course i wouldn't dare to alter the original meaning of the chinese texts.I think i haven't been completely clear. I have the spanish traduction of richard willhelms version. This traduction from german to spanish is good, but it limits itself in vocabulary, precisely because it is a traduction from german, which has its own ways of composing the phrases and the text itself. Vogelman, who traduced it, did a great job, yet i find some of the passages very cryptic. This crypticism can be deciphered, but by doing so, I'd like to write down what i comprehend, with a more personal vocabulary, in order to have my own words explaining that which has been already written.As you can see, i dont want to alter the meaning. I just want to make a difficult translation easier to grasp, by working in my native tounge, and not just translating a different one./// So, the first sentence says "The Creative works great accomplishments, propitiating by perseverance (Lo Creativo obra elevado logro, propiciando por la perseverancia".///I've tried to rewrite this in a less cryptic way, which resulted in the following: "The Creative expands and forms the ideas with his strenght; it creates what corresponds to the TAO and in this work it shows itself persevering (straight and firm)".///I hope this clears my first post, which wasnt as clear-cut.
 

Plutonian

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Welcome! I'm interested in reading your whole interpretation! Unfortunately I don't read Spanish but maybe you could translate it bit by bit and post it here on this thread, one line each day? That way it wouldn't be too heavy a burden on you and people would probably get more out of your work if you post it in small pieces anyway.Perseverance furthers!Rosada
Hi Rosada! I'm so happy you are interested in my actual work. I can try to rewrite it in spanish and publish it bit by bit, of course, but i'd like to finish some more hexagrams first, just to get going and get a sense of rythim in my work. As soon as I do this, i can start translating it to english so you can give me your insight on it.
 

moss elk

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No, of course i wouldn't dare to alter the original meaning of the chinese texts.

OK, good.
As a cautionary study, you may want to look at Crowley's 'I Ching'.
His work, trying to make it easier to understand, essentially created something different, with much nuance and depth left out.
 

Plutonian

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I'll look it up! Yet i feel ther have to be analogies that actually express the original meaning with complete fidelity
 

moss elk

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The Creative perseveres on expanding and forming the ideas (propitiate them) with his strenght.

When you add the single word idea, you have substantially changed the text so much that it is no longer the same. You create a rabbit hole for someones mind to go down that can get someone who is already lost, even more lost. This kind of work should be identified as commentary.
 

rosada

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Can you elaborate on that, Moss? Like, what do you see the text meaning before and after adding "idea"? I don't know what you are referring to, but your comment made me see including the description "idea" to The Creative could be limiting It to the mental realm (the idea realm) and The Creative is bigger than mind, bigger than the mental realm and thus bigger than an idea! The Creative has no limits! So yes, using the word "idea" is inappropriate. It shackles our experience of the huge unknowable vastness that is The Creative. But perhaps it protects us too.. We like to imagine this world is the result of conscious intelligence. Do we dare to realize the truth is it's all random chance?

So now I'm wondering, is that what you meant or did your comment just send me down a rabbit hole? :)
 

moss elk

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I don't know what you are referring to, but your comment made me see including the description "idea" to The Creative could be limiting It to the mental realm (the idea realm) and The Creative is bigger than mind, bigger than the mental realm and thus bigger than an idea!

Bingo, you got what I was getting at.

I only commented on this thread because I had a feeling that Plutonian wasn't making the distinction between Yi text as it is, and commentary.
 

rosada

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I hope Plutonian you will continue to post your observations. Commentary may not be text but it still leads to insights and a good debate.
 

Plutonian

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Hello there! Sorry for the absence. So, i've been reading all your comments, and thank you for being enthusiastic and participating! it is joyful being able to discuss these matters with fellow readers. I'm going to try and stand my ground on this one, not in a foolish attempt to defend what is incorrect, but more in a sense of deepening on the subject. As far as I understand, as well as rosada and moss said, there is a force that is beyond mental and physical properties because these last 2 concepts are it's manifestation on this dimension of existance. This movement, this law that underlies it all, is the EVERYTHING, or God, or (and correct me if im wrong), the TAO. The Tao is a flux, right? A way, a road that goes through fractals choosing one of many ways to follow, creating a unique pattern for each and everyone of us, observers, interpreters and "testers" of this virtual reality called existence, which is nothing else than moving particles so tiny we can't even conceive them in a mundane state. So, if im not wrong, a flux would need 2 base elements to work efficiently: The first one, would be a force that effectively moves or activates this flux, and the second one, would be a container of this movement, that which is moved, as well as the place where the flux goes. This remits to the 2 basic forces of the I Ching: The Creative and the Receptive. So, i think that even though movement makes itself visible in the form of "moving matter", it is a mental, invisible realm of action. I conceive the Creative as the movement that makes the idea flourish, and even more, it makes it cut through matter as the roots of a plant. So, the Creative is the force that moves the Tao, as well as the Receptive is the non-force that receives the Creative, creating a endless cycle of feedback, since the creative makes itself more intense, as there is more matter to move... Even though Richard WIllhelm tells us that it is not a real duality, and that in axioligical terms, the creative is more valuable than the receptive, i think it actually is a duality, since the creative would have nothing to work on, if there would be no matter. The Creative only exists as long as there are atoms in movement that carry out its work. And these atoms are those who RECEIVE the movement and through which the movement can actually do its job. SO! What i mean with all of this, is that the TAO is the great law that is greater and more magnificent than anything else, but the creative is only one half of its manifestation, and it comes in the form of ideas, not necesarilly human ideas, but ideas as seeds to be nourished and taken care of, mission which is to be accomplished by its receptive counterpart. So when i say the creative propitiates and expands the ideas, what i mean is that it works on the seeds, on the idea of something, with rectitude and perseverance. When I say idea i mean more the "world of ideas", the invisible plane of mentality, which works on and through the visible world of physicality. Im looking forward to hear what you got to say about this! I really want to know wheter I'm understanding it all wrong or if it was only a matter of terminology.
 
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diamanda

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I've tried to rewrite this in a less cryptic way, which resulted in the following: "The Creative expands and forms the ideas with his strenght; it creates what corresponds to the TAO and in this work it shows itself persevering (straight and firm)"

This movement, this law that underlies it all, is the EVERYTHING, or God, or (and correct me if im wrong), the TAO (...) So, the Creative is the force that moves the Tao (...) SO! What i mean with all of this, is that the TAO is the great law that is greater and more magnificent than anything else (...)

There's no 'tao' in the I Ching. Taoism was a much later philosophy.

The Creative (1) is a metaphor for the male principle.
The Receptive (2) is a metaphor for the female principle.
None of them is sufficient by itself, if life is to go anywhere on this planet.
Literally or metaphorically.
 

Plutonian

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Diamanda, thanks for participating in the discussion :)So, actually, the traduction of Richard Willhelm actually does, and quite a lot, so i think you got that one wrong... You should look into it, because the creative and the receptive, are the entities that make FLUX possible, which happens through these 2 concepts, which by analogy are metaphors of many things, because "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing". The below corresponds to earth, the aboe to heaven, and the one thing represents god (or tao) which is manifested through our will and actions. "Divine Will" is actually our will comprehended as divine for it mutates mind and matter constantly.
 

Plutonian

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I just checked, for the sake of truth, and indeed it is said that the Yi Ching is the base of all daoist (tao in spanish) doctrines. Tao originates within the I Ching, so that's something :p
 
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diamanda

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"Divine Will" is actually our will comprehended as divine for it mutates mind and matter constantly.
This is mentioned nowhere in the I Ching text.

it is said that the Yi Ching is the base of all daoist (tao in spanish) doctrines. Tao originates within the I Ching, so that's something :p

You sound confused.
The fact that the Taoists built a philosophy on the notion of 'Tao' proves nothing.

The idea of 'Tao', as used by the Taoists, does not exist in the I Ching. At. All.

The I Ching contains 64 hexagrams (64).
Plus, each has 6 changing lines (382).
Plus two extra lines for hex1 and hex2.
That's a total of 448 individual casts (not taking into account their combination).

As Hilary Barrett mentions in her brilliant book "Language of Change":
dao
Occurs in
9.1, 10.2, 17.4, 24.0
Literally
What it says: a path; what people walk. The old character shows the head of a man and
his footsteps on a road.
Related English phrases
● Being on track
● Following the way
● Going off track, losing your way
Ideas for interpretation
The Chinese for path is dao, as in Daodejing (Tao Te Ching) – a huge, rich concept. But dao
in the Yijing is a very simple thing: your path to walk.

So out of 448 individual omens, "dao" is mentioned only in 4. Without any 'philosophy' mentioned in the actual I Ching text. Not much huh?

You should definitely look into this a lot more, rather than relying just on the commentary of the 1 translation-of-a-translation you currently have.
 

Plutonian

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SHUO KUA, CHAPTER 1, PASSAGE 2: In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Changes thus: Their purpose was to follow the order of their nature and of fate. Therefore they determined the tao of heaven and called it the dark and the light. They determined the tao of the earth and called it the yielding and the firm. They determined the tao of man and called it love and rectitude. They combined these three fundamental powers and doubled them; therefore in the Book of Changes a sign is always formed by six lines. The places are divided into the dark and the light. The yielding and the firm occupy these by turns. Therefore the Book of Changes has six places, which constitute the linear figures. /// I really, really don't understand what you are talking about. What does TAO has to do with the omens? Tao is the one thing that is previous to ANY omen, it is what allows the base duality to work. And for the record, not everything I say is robotically transcripted off the book. I have my own thoughts and i read other books to nourish my knowledge than the I Ching. I respect this book in the highest of ways, and that is why I make my effort to discuss my thoughts with you, so don't just quote what i say telling me "ITS NOT IN THE BOOK", because that speaks of little reasoning. I'm not trying to change the book for my own sake, but I feel you are just closing yourself in a strange, non-constructive way. I hope you understand what I mean :) And hell of course I'm confused, but only after confusion comes order, doesn't it? And about what you said of the translation... well, i think it would be fantastic to read willhelms work in deutsch, but it's not that easy. As far as i understood, willhelms translation is one of the most unaltered ones, so excuse me if i base many of the things i say in what he translated, during 10 years, with chinese masters supervising him.
 

Plutonian

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I'm also interested in Esoterism in general, Hermeticism, Alchemy, Tarot, etc. Yet I Ching has proved to be one great master, with whom i can actually talk through the coin tosses.
 

Plutonian

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Bingo, you got what I was getting at. I only commented on this thread because I had a feeling that Plutonian wasn't making the distinction between Yi text as it is, and commentary.
Of course what i'm doing is a commentary on the i ching, the yi text is what it is. I thought that was pretty much clear before saying anything.
 
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svenrus

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Wang Bi use the expression Dao a lot in his commentary to the I. Could it be that it's jus an expression ? The ten wings are often ascribed to Confuze - others claim not, but instead of to example ".....Therefore they determined the tao of heaven and called it the dark and the light. They determined the tao of the earth and called it the yielding and the firm. They determined the tao of man and called it love and rectitude......" You could use: "... Therefore they determined the Nature of heaven and called it the dark and the light. They determined the Nature of the earth and called it the yielding and the firm. They determined the Nature of man and called it love and rectitude.... " I've tried that with Wang Bi's edition of I Ching and it actually made sense......
 

moss elk

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Of course what i'm doing is a commentary on the i ching, the yi text is what it is. I thought that was pretty much clear before saying anything.

Well, it wasn't clear to me.
That is why I posted.

I don't think anyone is trying to discourage you from working on this. I was just pointing out common mistakes people make when trying to write about yi.
When I see a 'Yi-inspired-book' that has extra phrases intermixed with the text, or writes wholly commentary presented as text, I generally put the book down within a minute. Take what I am saying as feedback to consider.
Good luck with your book.
 

Plutonian

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Moss, of course i take it all as feedback. I'm not intending on writing a book, maybe i exagerated if you understood it that way. I just wanted to expand knowledge of different hexagrams by discussing them and adding appropriate commentaries to them after doing so. Maybe interpretations that can work in a reading, or just concepts that can be associated with them. I'm sorry if I sounded irritated. I'm just somehow dense to express myself sometimes. No yi inspired book, only meditation on the books philosophy. That's what I'm proposing. About TAO/Nature, it definately makes sense. Today I was chatting with a friend who knows a lot of the book and she said "i would define TAO as the continuous consumation of the creative and the receptive". And that makes sense to me, since TAO is the way, and the way is built by deciding a way to follow (creative) and a body that actually follows that path (receptive). Following this mechanic, even though we can get a thousand different options to choose from, we will always only decide and act on one of them, which opens the path for the TAO to continuosly flow through. So, in a way, i suppose I'm saying TAO is the result of the combination of both primordial forces. It is the path they create as they interact. It is the way "changes" draw as they happen. Since these ways are infinite because the receptive and the creative are interacting contionously on different levels, i would associate it to the law of infinity, which can be comprehended as a non-mutable law that underlies evertything that actually happens. Something like the code of a software. Like an infinite net that just sustains it all.
 
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diamanda

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No yi inspired book, only meditation on the books philosophy
Hey Plutonian, sure, it's good to philosophise and meditate in general, if one has the luxury to do so. Just don't confuse Taoism with the I Ching. There's not much philosophy as such within the I Ching text itself - but of course it can be seen through many different lenses. Also, don't confuse philosophy with divination. You'll learn all this in time, after you've studied more. Yes Wilhelm's translation is great, actually I agree, stay with this book and study this first before you proceed to anything more advanced.
 
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svenrus

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Watch this 22 minutes video, there's some deep answeres concerning I Ching, Tao etc.:


[video=youtube;sWLBqIY0iKU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLBqIY0iKU[/video]


 

Plutonian

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svenrus i cant believe how amazing that video is! It really connected with my intuitive view/understanding of the Yi. I spend hours looking at trigrams and feeling there is more to what willhelms translation exposes of them. Thank you so much for this information, you have renewed my path!
 

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