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Thread: About the 1st Hexagram: Ch'ien

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosada View Post
    I don't know what you are referring to, but your comment made me see including the description "idea" to The Creative could be limiting It to the mental realm (the idea realm) and The Creative is bigger than mind, bigger than the mental realm and thus bigger than an idea!
    Bingo, you got what I was getting at.

    I only commented on this thread because I had a feeling that Plutonian wasn't making the distinction between Yi text as it is, and commentary.

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  3. #12
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    I hope Plutonian you will continue to post your observations. Commentary may not be text but it still leads to insights and a good debate.

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    Hello there! Sorry for the absence. So, i've been reading all your comments, and thank you for being enthusiastic and participating! it is joyful being able to discuss these matters with fellow readers. I'm going to try and stand my ground on this one, not in a foolish attempt to defend what is incorrect, but more in a sense of deepening on the subject. As far as I understand, as well as rosada and moss said, there is a force that is beyond mental and physical properties because these last 2 concepts are it's manifestation on this dimension of existance. This movement, this law that underlies it all, is the EVERYTHING, or God, or (and correct me if im wrong), the TAO. The Tao is a flux, right? A way, a road that goes through fractals choosing one of many ways to follow, creating a unique pattern for each and everyone of us, observers, interpreters and "testers" of this virtual reality called existence, which is nothing else than moving particles so tiny we can't even conceive them in a mundane state. So, if im not wrong, a flux would need 2 base elements to work efficiently: The first one, would be a force that effectively moves or activates this flux, and the second one, would be a container of this movement, that which is moved, as well as the place where the flux goes. This remits to the 2 basic forces of the I Ching: The Creative and the Receptive. So, i think that even though movement makes itself visible in the form of "moving matter", it is a mental, invisible realm of action. I conceive the Creative as the movement that makes the idea flourish, and even more, it makes it cut through matter as the roots of a plant. So, the Creative is the force that moves the Tao, as well as the Receptive is the non-force that receives the Creative, creating a endless cycle of feedback, since the creative makes itself more intense, as there is more matter to move... Even though Richard WIllhelm tells us that it is not a real duality, and that in axioligical terms, the creative is more valuable than the receptive, i think it actually is a duality, since the creative would have nothing to work on, if there would be no matter. The Creative only exists as long as there are atoms in movement that carry out its work. And these atoms are those who RECEIVE the movement and through which the movement can actually do its job. SO! What i mean with all of this, is that the TAO is the great law that is greater and more magnificent than anything else, but the creative is only one half of its manifestation, and it comes in the form of ideas, not necesarilly human ideas, but ideas as seeds to be nourished and taken care of, mission which is to be accomplished by its receptive counterpart. So when i say the creative propitiates and expands the ideas, what i mean is that it works on the seeds, on the idea of something, with rectitude and perseverance. When I say idea i mean more the "world of ideas", the invisible plane of mentality, which works on and through the visible world of physicality. Im looking forward to hear what you got to say about this! I really want to know wheter I'm understanding it all wrong or if it was only a matter of terminology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonian View Post
    I've tried to rewrite this in a less cryptic way, which resulted in the following: "The Creative expands and forms the ideas with his strenght; it creates what corresponds to the TAO and in this work it shows itself persevering (straight and firm)"
    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonian View Post
    This movement, this law that underlies it all, is the EVERYTHING, or God, or (and correct me if im wrong), the TAO (...) So, the Creative is the force that moves the Tao (...) SO! What i mean with all of this, is that the TAO is the great law that is greater and more magnificent than anything else (...)
    There's no 'tao' in the I Ching. Taoism was a much later philosophy.

    The Creative (1) is a metaphor for the male principle.
    The Receptive (2) is a metaphor for the female principle.
    None of them is sufficient by itself, if life is to go anywhere on this planet.
    Literally or metaphorically.

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    Diamanda, thanks for participating in the discussion So, actually, the traduction of Richard Willhelm actually does, and quite a lot, so i think you got that one wrong... You should look into it, because the creative and the receptive, are the entities that make FLUX possible, which happens through these 2 concepts, which by analogy are metaphors of many things, because "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing". The below corresponds to earth, the aboe to heaven, and the one thing represents god (or tao) which is manifested through our will and actions. "Divine Will" is actually our will comprehended as divine for it mutates mind and matter constantly.

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    I just checked, for the sake of truth, and indeed it is said that the Yi Ching is the base of all daoist (tao in spanish) doctrines. Tao originates within the I Ching, so that's something :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonian View Post
    "Divine Will" is actually our will comprehended as divine for it mutates mind and matter constantly.
    This is mentioned nowhere in the I Ching text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonian View Post
    it is said that the Yi Ching is the base of all daoist (tao in spanish) doctrines. Tao originates within the I Ching, so that's something :P
    You sound confused.
    The fact that the Taoists built a philosophy on the notion of 'Tao' proves nothing.

    The idea of 'Tao', as used by the Taoists, does not exist in the I Ching. At. All.

    The I Ching contains 64 hexagrams (64).
    Plus, each has 6 changing lines (382).
    Plus two extra lines for hex1 and hex2.
    That's a total of 448 individual casts (not taking into account their combination).

    As Hilary Barrett mentions in her brilliant book "Language of Change":
    dao
    Occurs in
    9.1, 10.2, 17.4, 24.0
    Literally
    What it says: a path; what people walk. The old character shows the head of a man and
    his footsteps on a road.
    Related English phrases
    ● Being on track
    ● Following the way
    ● Going off track, losing your way
    Ideas for interpretation
    The Chinese for path is dao, as in Daodejing (Tao Te Ching) – a huge, rich concept. But dao
    in the Yijing is a very simple thing: your path to walk.
    So out of 448 individual omens, "dao" is mentioned only in 4. Without any 'philosophy' mentioned in the actual I Ching text. Not much huh?

    You should definitely look into this a lot more, rather than relying just on the commentary of the 1 translation-of-a-translation you currently have.

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    SHUO KUA, CHAPTER 1, PASSAGE 2: In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Changes thus: Their purpose was to follow the order of their nature and of fate. Therefore they determined the tao of heaven and called it the dark and the light. They determined the tao of the earth and called it the yielding and the firm. They determined the tao of man and called it love and rectitude. They combined these three fundamental powers and doubled them; therefore in the Book of Changes a sign is always formed by six lines. The places are divided into the dark and the light. The yielding and the firm occupy these by turns. Therefore the Book of Changes has six places, which constitute the linear figures. /// I really, really don't understand what you are talking about. What does TAO has to do with the omens? Tao is the one thing that is previous to ANY omen, it is what allows the base duality to work. And for the record, not everything I say is robotically transcripted off the book. I have my own thoughts and i read other books to nourish my knowledge than the I Ching. I respect this book in the highest of ways, and that is why I make my effort to discuss my thoughts with you, so don't just quote what i say telling me "ITS NOT IN THE BOOK", because that speaks of little reasoning. I'm not trying to change the book for my own sake, but I feel you are just closing yourself in a strange, non-constructive way. I hope you understand what I mean And hell of course I'm confused, but only after confusion comes order, doesn't it? And about what you said of the translation... well, i think it would be fantastic to read willhelms work in deutsch, but it's not that easy. As far as i understood, willhelms translation is one of the most unaltered ones, so excuse me if i base many of the things i say in what he translated, during 10 years, with chinese masters supervising him.

  10. #19
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    I'm also interested in Esoterism in general, Hermeticism, Alchemy, Tarot, etc. Yet I Ching has proved to be one great master, with whom i can actually talk through the coin tosses.

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moss Elk View Post
    Bingo, you got what I was getting at. I only commented on this thread because I had a feeling that Plutonian wasn't making the distinction between Yi text as it is, and commentary.
    Of course what i'm doing is a commentary on the i ching, the yi text is what it is. I thought that was pretty much clear before saying anything.

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