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Thread: Stumped by two readings about napping: 13.2.6->43 and 8.3->39

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    Default Stumped by two readings about napping: 13.2.6->43 and 8.3->39

    Hi all,

    I rarely come here with a reading that I have not the slightest inkling how to interpret, but here I am with two (and yes, I asked nearly the same question twice, which is a no-no, but here we are).

    My baby struggles with daytime naps. She's great at bedtime and nighttime sleeping, but fights every daytime nap and worse, without fail wakes from them after only 15-30 minutes, which is too short to get the deep, restful sleep she needs. By the end of the day, she's very cranky. It's clear her crankiness is connected to the lack of naps, because on the rare occasions when she does get a solid 1.5-2 hour nap she's a ray of sunshine right up to bedtime. So far the only way we can get those long naps to happen is if someone walks continuously with her in their carrier (which is hard to keep up as she gets bigger) or conditions align perfectly and she's in the stroller (but the weather has been too windy and frigid here to do that regularly). We've tried lots of tricks, nothing has worked. Apparently I was this kind of baby too and stopped napping all together by age 2, so maybe it's genetic.

    In the meantime I turn to Yi. And am very puzzled by the responses.

    How can I help her nap?
    13.2.6 -> 43

    Something about groups, cliques, people being on the inside vs. outside? Aligning with people who you don't feel kinship with? Her doctor is very big on sleep training (the cry it out method, where you just leave the baby in the crib and walk away until she screams herself to sleep, over and over), and we find this horrifying. We've considered switching doctors over this but otherwise the doctor is basically fine (though there are other things we don't like about the practice as a whole) and we haven't. My husband and I are on the same page about how we feel about sleep training, we don't like it.

    And again a few days later:

    How can i help her nap for longer, more replenishing periods?

    8.3-> 39

    Once again the suggestion that group dynamics are off somehow (aligning with the wrong people again). Unless Yi is cryptically saying that children can't really be changed (which I don't believe, I think everyone is a product of their environment), and I'm seeking the wrong thing? Is this a comment that my ideas about sleep training are actually off, and we should try it? Or that we should find a different doctor who is more philosophically aligned with us? At this point in her appointments, when asked about her sleep, we play down the nap issues because her doctor is so judgmental and pushy about trying sleep training. The doctor supports no other methods.

    I don't know! I'm so confused by this reading.

    Anyone?

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    I have also considered that 8.3 might be suggesting praying to various deities, pulled from an old thread here that I read once about what "non-people" could mean, and I'm going to try that. But I would love to hear some interpretations of this line and the ones from 13.

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    Since we just had a doctor's appointment with her a few days ago where once again the vibe was clearly mismatched between us and the doctor, I'm wondering if that is what these readings are about...we have wider criticisms of the practice beyond the sleep issues, but they've been easy to ignore...maybe Yi is talking about this problem instead?

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    Well, I asked Yi for any commentary on us continuing to bring her to that doctor and cast 3 unchanging. This suggests to me that we'll eventually change doctors but for now it's fine. Thoughts?

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    Gosh,
    babies often need to be lulled to sleep.
    The walk, the stroller ride, the car ride, the papoose while doing dishes.
    Many people have to resort to what actually works for the individual baby.

    If laying baby down in a quiet room and shutting the door doesn't work, can you conform to what works for baby, instead of having baby conform to one particular method? (I've cared for quite a few babies actually, that time I was married to a nanny.)

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    Hi Mulberry,

    I too am stumped by the castings and how they relate to the question you asked. The hexagrams are nice, but the lines (8.3) and (13.2) are not.

    However, maybe try changing the question. In your explanation, it seems that you really want to ask Yi a question about this doctor, and whether or not this particular doctor is a good fit to help you with this napping challenge. You've already stated that you disagree with this philosophy to let babies "cry it out," because it is much healthier and nourishing for babies to know their cries will be responded to and soothed.

    I get the sense maybe you're not ready to ask the question. But, when you're ready maybe try asking a question like "What impact will changing to a doctor with a holistic approach to sleeping babies have on my baby and her struggle to nap?" That is probably not the exact question to ask, but something along those lines. I think there are more probing questions to ask about this doctor and the impact/impediment he's having on the questions you've asked.

    I suspect that a doctor with a philosophy of sleeping and soothing babies that is more aligned with yours, that such a doctor can give you more direct, granular, and helpful advice on this matter than Yi can give.

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    Hi mulberry,

    The following jumped out on me - you seem to have answered your own questions:

    How can I help her nap? 13.2.6 > 43
    NOT in the family/inside, but outside/border/countryside.
    Do not resort to arms, but still be decisive - maybe announce it to her in the same words every time?
    You wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by mulberry View Post
    So far the only way we can get those long naps to happen is if someone walks continuously with her in their carrier (which is hard to keep up as she gets bigger) or conditions align perfectly and she's in the stroller (but the weather has been too windy and frigid here to do that regularly).

    How can i help her nap for longer, more replenishing periods? 8.3 > 39

    There are nasty people involved in this story, and they're blocking the whole process.
    You wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by mulberry View Post
    the cry it out method, where you just leave the baby in the crib and walk away until she screams herself to sleep, over and over), and we find this horrifying (...) we play down the nap issues because her doctor is so judgmental and pushy about trying sleep training. The doctor supports no other methods.

    commentary on us continuing to bring her to that doctor and cast 3 unchanging
    3 means back off, chaos, "struggling to be born".

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    First I don't see what a Dr has to do with this, it isn't a medical issue is it ?

    See Moss Elk's post.

    I think the 8.3 might show the tendency to treat it as a sort of non human issue, as if perhaps the baby is a small machine ?

    I know you wouldn't see her that way as you love her but it can still creep into your thinking about this issue.


    We've tried lots of tricks, nothing has worked. Apparently I was this kind of baby too and stopped napping all together by age 2, so maybe it's genetic.
    Certainly kinds of temperament linked to biology can be genetic in which case there is no use fighting it

    In the meantime I turn to Yi. And am very puzzled by the responses.

    How can I help her nap?
    13.2.6 -> 43
    My first thought is 13 is community, people. Where do you put her to nap ? She might sleep better somewhere where there's a hum of activity rather than being on her own ? You probably tried that.

    Yet 13.2.and 6 together make me feel space is needed. I, as an adult, need my own space to sleep yet I find the sounds of people doing things in the background quite soothing. As a child the sound of a lawn mower outside would sooth me to sleep.

    I don't know I'm just thinking here about proximity and how much that comforts her or not.
    If you put yourself in her mind what good reasons would there be not to nap ? I'll imagine some

    1. I'll be left alone
    2. I'll miss the fun
    3. Erm I just don't want to go to sleep
    4.......

    But the 43 is quite a decisive factor here for a napping baby.

    Taking it as a sentence, Fellowship's Deciding. I wonder if the break is too sudden from society with others to sleep and solitude.


    And again a few days later:

    How can i help her nap for longer, more replenishing periods?

    8.3-> 39

    Once again the suggestion that group dynamics are off somehow (aligning with the wrong people again). Unless Yi is cryptically saying that children can't really be changed (which I don't believe, I think everyone is a product of their environment), and I'm seeking the wrong thing? Is this a comment that my ideas about sleep training are actually off, and we should try it? Or that we should find a different doctor who is more philosophically aligned with us? At this point in her appointments, when asked about her sleep, we play down the nap issues because her doctor is so judgmental and pushy about trying sleep training. The doctor supports no other methods.

    I'm not sure why Drs if it isn't a medical issue. That does sound very 8.3., making it a medical issue sounds very 8.3ish.


    All line 3 says is, from Hilary's book

    'Seeking union with non-people'

    This really doesn't have to mean bad people or even wrong people. It says 'non people' and non people can be systems, beliefs, ideologies. I certainly have seen 8.3 for this and never, not even once, seen it to indicate anyone bad or unpleasant. What it is is when you try to unite with something that simply isn't human, of your kind. I got it once about using a bidding system on the internet. In that instance I was engaging with some thing non human. I recall clearly someone here cast it when they asked what it was like to be a cat !! Straight answer, a cat is not human ! It can be people who just are so unlike you you can't connect.

    I don't think this about the wrong people I think it is to do with a detached, almost non human attitude to the napping issue. I think it may also be to do with you taking it to a Dr as an issue when it isn't an objective medical problem to be solved it is to do with who the child is and her sensibilities.

    It's a very human issue and it isn't medical. I don't know how but is it possible you could humanize this a bit more in the sense of seeing it less of a medical issue or a problem and more of simply the personality of the baby ?

    You said

    Unless Yi is cryptically saying that children can't really be changed (which I don't believe, I think everyone is a product of their environment), and I'm seeking the wrong thing?
    I think Yi maybe is sort of saying that yes. Everyone isn't only a product of their environment since siblings are very different even in the same environment and babies are born as distinct people not blank slates, as no doubt you know well. I don't think Yi is making a statement that she cannot be changed of course your routines etc matter, but I do think Yi is saying sleep programmes/idealism about sleep/your belief about the necessity of her naps, may be not engaging with her a human more as machine. Which sounds terribly insulting and I don't mean it that way at all, I'm sure she is anything but a machine to you but you may have a mechanical model in mind as an ideal ?

    If all that's wrong, and it could be, the 43 could well indicate being firm and breaking with the child while she cries so that she learns to sleep by herself. I mean realistically everyone has to do that at some point don't they ? That's not the same thing as always systematically choosing to ignore the cries but at some point it is going to happen isn't it ?

    Not sure about these thoughts but thought I'd throw them out there.

    I think Moss Elk's probably the expert here and what he said is anti 8.3 in a sense. Sounds more human , less idealistic.

    You say you have a sunny child if she naps so that is the ideal but the ideal isn't happening. The ideal is a 'non person'' it's an ideal, it's not human, it's not baby human either.

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    Oh and definitely photo please if possible, that will help with interpretation

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    Thank you all so much for these generous replies! What a lot of help for a hard cast and a challenging situation. It's much appreciated. I'll try to respond to everyone.

    But first, because I think I made it a wee bit confusing, we didn't bring up sleep with her doctor. I 100% agree it's not a medical issue. But her doctor brings it up at every appointment and did at this one we went to last week which I think led me down this path of questioning.... It's part of the philosophy of the head doctor who runs this chain of practices, they consider themselves sleep experts or something like that but their methods are cruel. We are diametrically opposed to them philosophically on this.

    At this past appointment, the doctor told us, "If you don't get her sleep trained by 9 months, you'll have a real problem case on your hands." I fundamentally disagree with the doctor on this and found her aggressiveness about it startling, even though I know it is part of the practice's ethos. We would never go to this practice by first choice except our part of the city has puzzlingly few doctors who take our insurance, and this place seemed the best of the meager lot. It's part of a pediatrics chain, a weird thing that the US has as part of our ridiculous health care system, and they've hoovered up most of the other practices in the area it seems.

    Nevertheless her comment bothered me, I guess. I feel confident enough to dismiss her admonishments about nighttime waking (no matter what they say, I think it's normal our baby still wakes at night to eat, and it's not really a problem) but with the naps...yes, those are a problem for us. So she got to me on that one. Also we've had a run of high wind storms that have prevented us going outside in the afternoons, which exacerbates it more...

    I don't think I would have started bothering Yi about the naps without that appointment, I guess, is what I'm saying, though I didn't realize it until I posted the castings here and started reflecting more.

    It is quite odd that this pediatrics practice is so focused on sleep, right? That's just dawning on me. It felt odd but you know, they're the doctors and they have advanced degrees and I tended not to question them. But it's off, isn't it? Hmm....

    Moss Elk-- indeed, I agree about lulling! We've tried the leave-her-in-the-crib route and besides the fact it doesn't work, hearing her cry is horrible and feels cruel, so we quickly stopped that. The problem is often lulling doesn't work either...she is so curious about everything that she wants to constantly be looking, babbling, grabbing, touching, and even being cocooned in a carrier doesn't work. Unless we go outside, that does work 9 out of 10 times. If only we lived in California!

    sealedkeyhole-- welcome to the forum!! and thank you for your kind reply. I agree, I think we need to find another doctor. We're considering a move and one of the things I'm looking forward to is perhaps being closer to a doctor who is on our wavelength.

    diamanda-- thank you muchly for your insights!! I agree that going outside seems key and we need to move on from this doctor somehow.

    Trojina-- thank you so much for this! A picture is on its way via DM. :-) You gave me a lot to mull over... I'm not sure the machine angle is it really, or maybe that's part of it, but turned on its head? These authority figures (well, this doctor) is telling us we need to be more mechanical and have an ideal with regards to sleep, but I'm much more sensitive and loose (but also concerned with rhythm...in a Steiner/Waldorf kind of way). And, as I mentioned, we didn't take it to the doctor, she took it up with us, and I even went out of my way to be vague with her about it. Of course her authority doesn't really matter, it's my own issue that I can't entirely dismiss her when there's nothing actually preventing me from doing so (it feels a bit 47.6 in that way). But I would like to resolve the napping issues, so doubts creep in...

    In terms of why baby doesn't nap, I think it is number 2 from your list, all the way. (Can't be #1 since we never leave her alone, we try it every so often and the tears are too much.) She loves being awake, she is a very alert and curious baby. Loves to look in drawers, try to puzzle through objects, loves books and music and being shown things and getting to hold them. Clearly wants to be walking and talking. She really resists sleeping during the day (but has no trouble at bedtime).

    She does seem to sleep well among strangers, but it's in a surface way. We took her to a few restaurants when she was quite small and were delighted when she immediately fell asleep each time in her carrier. But then, without exception, she was inconsolably upset when she woke up (in a way she never was otherwise). So we figured out she was falling asleep out of stress at too much sensory input (or something like that) and have avoided bustling places ever since. I think she might be growing out of this by now but with flu season being so terrible this year we've been avoiding crowds regardless.

    When she's at home, the slightest footstep or rustle or stirred teacup or a honking horn outside wakes her during daytime naps. But at night she sleeps through all of it.

    I'm still puzzled by these castings! I think Yi is trying to talk about wider issues beyond the nap, like how we fit in philosophically with the stream we're swimming in, and how we're at cross-currents in some ways with it. Beyond the doctor issue, I don't have many friends who are also parents, and only one or two of them really fully share my sensibility about things, about the importance of slowing down, being soothing and emotionally responsive even when it's inconvenient, and so on. The others are much more into sleep training, daycare, maintaining careers foremost, etc. It's all been a bit foggy but I'm realizing maybe it is not so comfortable to spend time with people who you fundamentally disagree with on parenting things, at least if you're going to discuss it... Anyway, much to ponder.

    Again, thank you all!
    Last edited by mulberry; March 7th, 2018 at 01:37 AM.

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