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Thread: Stumped by two readings about napping: 13.2.6->43 and 8.3->39

  1. #11
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    By the way, I know some of you are probably into astrology as well...for background, my daughter has 6 planets in fire signs (including sun and moon) and 6 in fire houses, as well as a fire sign rising. So maybe naps just aren't her thing really.

  2. #12
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    Well...I think there are things in the readings that support not making her nap when she doesn't want to. 13.2 - don't worry about the standard advice that babies must nap? You don't have to abide by that just because everyone says so or because it's true for all the other babies? Hexagram 8 - natural affinities, choices - let her nap when she wants?

    But what's tripping me up is you said she doesn't do well when she doesn't nap. I mean, if I myself really truly don't need sleep at a given time, I'm not then cranky from lack of it. That part confuses me a lot.

    However there are people, grown-ups, who resist sleep even when they need it. They make jokes about having plenty of time to sleep when they're dead and whatnot. However adults are in charge of their own sleeping whereas with babies parents are supposed to make sure they get enough sleep just like enough food.

    So I'm puzzled, but still I wonder what would happen if you just let it completely up to her when to sleep? She'll have to eventually.

    As for the doctor, if you keep seeing her, what if you start taking a tack of "yes, it's improving" even if it's not, just to get her off your back? Would a white lie hurt anything? [Added: as a way to deal with an 8.3 person]

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    mulberry (March 9th, 2018)

  4. #13
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    Trojina-- thank you so much for this! A picture is on its way via DM. :-)
    I can report to the forum this is a very happy and beautiful baby we are discussing. In the picture she looks most pleased with the world.


    You gave me a lot to mull over... I'm not sure the machine angle is it really, or maybe that's part of it, but turned on its head? These authority figures (well, this doctor) is telling us we need to be more mechanical and have an ideal with regards to sleep, but I'm much more sensitive and loose (but also concerned with rhythm...in a Steiner/Waldorf kind of way). And, as I mentioned, we didn't take it to the doctor, she took it up with us, and I even went out of my way to be vague with her about it. Of course her authority doesn't really matter, it's my own issue that I can't entirely dismiss her when there's nothing actually preventing me from doing so (it feels a bit 47.6 in that way). But I would like to resolve the napping issues, so doubts creep in...
    Yes that's what I was meaning to convey and possibly didn't, that the Dr's approach, their ideas/theories/'expertise', sounds not human, like 8.3. If you begin to believe them then you might be sharing their mechanical view.

    Well I say that though I can't be sure what the 8.3 applies to and have been thinking about what 'non human' might mean for a baby and of course cuddly toys and comfort blankets come to mind because they certainly can try to 'seek union' with those although she is probably too young for that kind of attachment, not sure. Not sure how cuddly toys might answer your question either as I'm sure you have thought of putting her favourite blanket/toy with her in her crib.

    Just reading through again, saw this

    At this past appointment, the doctor told us, "If you don't get her sleep trained by 9 months, you'll have a real problem case on your hands."
    'problem case' ? That sounds very non human to me. It sounds an extreme statement to make about a baby who won't nap. Babies vary hugely in sleep patterns. I visited my great nephew (my nephew's son) aged 9 months the other day who sleeps like a top through the night and naps every 2 hours. I mentioned how jealous my niece would be since her little ones were never that predictable/peaceful at all. My nephew more or less said it was down to 'luck of the draw', he thought it was nothing to do with what my niece did or that he did as babies are all so different.

    I also think that statement quoted above about her becoming a 'problem case' is really applying pressure to you. I wonder what their agenda is ? You said they were sleep experts and I wonder if they using patients for research, you know telling parents to do xyz and then collecting 'results'. Hmm I don't want to get paranoid but it just sounds odd.

    I guess if she gets cranky without a nap you could put her down in the evening earlier...but I'm sure you tried that.

    Fire heavy chart ? Well she hasn't got time to nap, she needs to get on to the next thing. !

    You mentioned not having many other parents to talk to who are on your wavelength, I wonder if you would feel much better when you find out how much variation there is on 'normal'. Have you tried any forums ?

    I hope you find a way through this though, let us know how it goes.

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    mulberry (March 9th, 2018)

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    Hi Mulberry,

    How old is your baby? Have you read Moms on Call? They even have an app. Basically it emphasizes ROUTINE and sleep training. Do you have her on a eat/sleep schedule right now? It's a much more gentle approach to the cry it out method. Babies really do thrive on a schedule because they know what to expect. Do you put her down for a nap at the same time everyday? It's worked for my son and he still takes 2 hr naps and sleeps 10 hours straight at night. I started when he was about 3 months old and he's now 2. Truly grateful for this book!

    As for your readings 13.2.6->43 and 8.3->39: Seems to revolve around fellowship and union. Have you thought about enrolling her in a part-time daycare/preschool? Or a mommy group with like minded people you can relate to? My lil man goes to preschool part time 2x a week and he passes out in his carseat while I'm pulling out of the parking lot. All the activities and fun he has there wears him out. He doesn't even wake up when I bring him from the car to his bed.

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    mulberry (March 9th, 2018)

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    Just wanted to add that sleep training does have it's benefits and adopting good sleeping habits while young will carry over to adulthood.
    Also, your readings could be telling you to consult with other moms on parenting boards on the interwebs - mayhaps!? Maybe find a group you're comfortable sharing with and ask other parents for their advice? I feel like the context of 39 is always about seeing a great man - and for me that usually means Google
    I wish you luck and hope you get plenty of rest!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisbliss View Post
    As for your readings 13.2.6->43 and 8.3->39: Seems to revolve around fellowship and union. Have you thought about enrolling her in a part-time daycare/preschool?
    I get the impression Mulberry's baby is very small, less than 9 months old anyway.

    Thank you, Trojina, for describing the little one to us. I'm pleased that she is pleased.

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  12. #17
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    Thank you, Liselle, Trojina, and thisisbliss! All of you are right that I should join some parenting boards, maybe some Waldorf/Steiner ones in particular. I've been reading some books by people from Steiner backgrounds (like Rahima Dancy and Sharifa Oppenheimer) that have helped us a lot with creating home and family rhythms, soothing/serene atmosphere, a good balance with the attachment-type stuff, and so on, as we move out of the wild time-bending newborn period.

    Liselle-- thank you so much for your careful consideration of the reading and your insights! And for the suggestion in dealing with 8.3. In terms of napping, we tried the "leave it up to her" method but left to her own devices Baby Mulberry just stays up (while getting increasingly miserable). It seems she needs help (quiet atmosphere, warm sweater, intentions set, etc.) to fall asleep. I think her issue in general is just that she doesn't yet quite know how to fall asleep or slow down on her own, and when she is very tired she gets more and more hyper to compensate until she crashes in tears/exhaustion. I've become hawklike in watching for signs of sleepiness--rubbing her eyes or a yawn--and when I see it, I quickly transition her into her bouncer or the carrier, both of which she finds soothing, sing to her, make everything very hushed, and if get the window exactly right, she'll just fall asleep easily. Then the issue becomes her staying asleep through the nap, as the slightest noise will wake her... But if I miss the window and she continues playing/rolling around/interacting, she gets really worn out and exhausted and then will cry instead of sleeping, and no amount of singing, bouncing, carrying seems to work then.

    Trojina-- thank you for the kind words she is a very sweet baby, even when sleep deprived, and quite delighted with the world. Regarding the doctors, I can't figure it out, except as I research them more I'm discovering the head honcho of the chain wrote a book on baby sleep and presents himself as a sleep guru to celebrities which is so completely not us that I am sort of baffled how we ended up there. It's very "New York" in attitude in this way that we're not. Maybe they're hellbent on maintaining their "brand," for irrational reasons? I don't know. We have other friends who also use this chain but they're more on board with the strict sleep ideas. It does feel weird and I am going to figure out how to switch eventually, if we don't move. But there isn't much choice alas without us traveling quite a bit further to appointments...looking around, the other options are really off-putting. The other large nearby practice besides this one, for example, not only has terrible reviews, its former head doctor is in jail right now because of a fraud scheme .

    In terms of bedtime, she goes to bed at 5:45 pm right now, and it works, so we're afraid to try to move it...plus I think it's about as early as is possible. That part, at least, is fine!

    thisisbliss-- thank you for your kind words, and for the suggestion, I'm looking it up! She's six months old right now. We do follow a set rhythm and schedule (with adjustments at times) and in terms of napping, we hold to trying to get her into a good place to nap every hour and 45 minutes to 2 hours since her crankiness and difficulties falling asleep usually start around the 2 hour mark of wakefulness. The main issue, though, I'm realizing, is that during the day she's an incredibly light sleeper. I recently woke her accidentally by turning the page of a book while in the same room...someone walking around at the other end of the apartment is often enough to wake her, too. Yet at night, she sleeps through nearly anything (including twice recently through fire alarms from cooking dinner). The lightness of her naptime sleep means she hardly ever gets more than 30 minutes of sleep when we're indoors. On the other hand, while outside in her carriage or a carrier, she'll sleep 1.5-2 hours without any effort. She'll also sleep that long in the carrier indoors, if my husband is wearing her. He's a bit bearlike and we think she loves the coziness. I'm more petite and I don't think I give the same feeling.

    Anyway, thank you all for these generous insights and well-wishes! I will update this thread on how things turn out or if I get anymore insight into 13.2.6 and 8.3 in this context. Hugs to you all!

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  14. #18
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    I must say, you sound like the bestest dearest mommy in all the world (other than my own, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by mulberry View Post
    I think her issue in general is just that she doesn't yet quite know how to fall asleep or slow down on her own, and when she is very tired she gets more and more hyper to compensate until she crashes in tears/exhaustion.
    This sounds exactly like what my mother called "overtired."

    I've become hawklike in watching for signs of sleepiness--rubbing her eyes or a yawn--and when I see it, I quickly transition her into her bouncer or the carrier, both of which she finds soothing, sing to her, make everything very hushed, and if get the window exactly right, she'll just fall asleep easily.
    That all sounds perfectly good and reasonable (warning - I've never had children so what do I know, but it sounds sensible).

    I'd guess it's pretty impossible not to have the slightest noise while she's napping. I can't imagine how you'd do that. Er...is there any chance white noise could help, if it covered up other random noises? It helps adults sometimes, don't know about babies.

    I looked at the readings again in light of the extra information you gave us and I'm not getting anything more out of them, sorry. They perhaps could be seen as "outside" (13.6?) and "husband" (8, Bonding"), but there are insurmountable reasons why you can't be outside for every nap, and your husband can't be there for naps, either.

    Hm. Wondering if there's any way to fake any of it. Is there a window in her room that could be cracked a bit to let in some outdoor sounds and smells? But it'd let cold air in, too.

    Do you think a mobile over her bed would help to give her something to look at, similar to being outside?

    A CD with outdoor sounds? Might be both "white noise" and "outdoors-y"?

    Is she old enough for a stuffed animal in bed with her? Maybe a larger more "bear-like" one? Although you are bigger than any stuffed animal would be, and even you are not the same as Daddy the Bear.

    If she likes the carrier because of the coziness - and bear in mind I don't know what this "carrier" even is - could it help to wrap her up good in a blanket for naps? Is that called swaddling?

    Again, keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm prattling on probably based somehow on things I heard my mother say.

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    Mulberry,Do you have a sound machine? I bought one on Amazon for $10 when my son was born and still use it. It seems like your lil one likes the white noise when she's outside. I highly recommend one so you don't have to be so quiet and resume with chores, watching a movie in digital surround, turn up the jams while you vacuum. It works for me, my guy sleeps through everything! He'll wake up as soon as I turn it off though. LOL. Not sure if your baby is too big, but I used to have a couple woombies - a zip up swaddle.
    https://www.amazon.com/Woombie-Origi...waddle&th=1And not sure if you're breastfeeding, but I joined a group led by lactation consultants 2x/week when I was on maternity leave. I made a lot of connections (I don't have too many friends with kids either) and learned so much. We didn't just talk about breastfeeding either. A very good group and still keep in touch on the facebook group page.

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    Thank you so much, Liselle and thisisbliss! So many generous and kindhearted people have chimed in, and I really appreciate it. I appreciate all the suggestions and will keep updating this thread!

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