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New medication (fingers crossed) 63.2.5 - 11

deepwater

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I have started a new medication today which has loads of potential side effects but could be of great help. My question is What will be the effect of this medication? I received 63.2.5 - 11.

Sometimes when i read for myself, I feel clouded by my self-interest, I wonder if you can help. I was encouraged by 11 but couldn’t really make sense of the primary hexagram.

thank you x
 
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diamanda

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What will be the effect of this medication? I received 63.2.5 > 11

63.2 probably means you'll have side-effects, or in any case you'll need regular doctor visits? As it speaks of a woman losing her cover/privacy. That will last for a few days, so not that bad.

63.5 can be a truly horrible line. Something gets killed, and because it's a 'cow' (= means of livelihood) that's quite worrying. However there are some gains elsewhere. This line definitely shows one party gaining, and one party losing big time.

11 says that the small goes away, and the 'large' comes. This could be good or bad, depending on what the small and the large are... If I were you I wouldn't go ahead with this medication, the overall reading sounds ominous.
 

deepwater

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Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is a difficult response and I will sit with it. No one wants to lose their cow.
 

equinox

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I received 63.2.5 >11 when I was disproportionately worried about one issue and way less efforts/ sacrifices were asked for than I thought. Which I realised only after a while. I don't know how and if this resonates with your situation?
If not, then please forget my words especially if you are seriously ill, which I can't know and which of course you don't have to tell. Readings on health issues are a delicate thing, since there is always a big risk of wrong interpretation and of course the Yi shouldn't replace the advise of a medical professional -- I guess you know.
 

deepwater

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Thank you equinox. That is probably my case. I am not seriously ill; one system is out of balance and am trying to use medication to achieve the balance as there is nothing in my lifestyle which remains to change. It is a quality of life issue rather than a matter of life or death, which I can perceive it to be on a bad day! As both hexagrams address a state of balance, both seem to suggest that while balance is possible, it is never pemanent. That one should not be over aggressive in the remedy. So that is the question to follow next I reckon.
 

Trojina

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I mentioned here how in discussion of Yi we cannot always stick to the exact words of the translation.

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?25754-Hex-14-uc-and-Love&p=250886#post250886

I'm here following your comment in the Exploring Divination thread and my response there included a reference to how I felt you were using quite a lot of 'imagination' with your thoughts on line 5 here (and on other threads...we all use 'imagination' in responding though here I think the imagining is pretty stretched and I am just saying this in response to your comment to suryauday, if you can do it why can't she ? why is she 'incorrect' when you go further than she does )


I can just about see line 2 as side effects, adjusting to the impact of the medication might be disorientating perhaps though there could be other interpretations no doubt but this...where do you get this idea from

63.5 can be a truly horrible line. Something gets killed, and because it's a 'cow' (= means of livelihood) that's quite worrying. However there are some gains elsewhere. This line definitely shows one party gaining, and one party losing big time.

63.5 says

'The neighbour in the east slaughters an oxen.
Not like the Western neighbour's summer offering,
Truly accepting their blessing.'

(Hilary's translation'.

You see you have said in the linked thread that 'flexibility ' for 14 was beyond the bounds of imagination but Diamanda how by any stretch of the imagination is 63.5 a 'truly horrible line' ?

:confused:


As far as I am concerned the line simply indicates that great sacrifices are not needed. While the eastern neighbour slaughters a whole oxen the western neighbour is blessed and need not offer so much to be blessed. Not forgetting it says 'truly accepting their blessing'.

This line isn't about big horrible losses at all, the eastern neighbours aren't losing oxen, just making bigger sacrifices than is necessary

You said 'flexible' was beyond the bounds of imagination over there but 'truly horrible' is just a pretty massive stretch of the meaning of the line, not to mention 'truly horrible' isn't there at all. Of course it isn't, you are just sharing your own view/ experience, but if you can do that to this extent why is suryuaday 'incorrect' use the word 'flexible' for 14 ? :confused:

I don't think you have any basis to say to this person that the reading is 'ominous'. It simply is not an ominous reading at all.

The cow isn't just killed as in losing means of livelihood, it's an offering, a sacrifice, that is unnecessary, that's all. The line advises you don't need to be like them. Nothing ominous or horrible.

The cow is voluntarily slaughtered as sacrifice that is unnecessary so when you say 'a cow gets killed' so that's 'horrible' it's just not like that, that's not the sense of the line at all.

I wouldn't have said any of this, considering how variable a person's sense of a line can be, but your comment to suryauday prompted this response. If she has gone beyond imagination then so have you.
 
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Liselle

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Deepwater, when you say something is "out of balance," it's not clear what you mean. Was this the result of a medical test showing something is too low or too high, such as blood sugar or cholesterol too high?

Of course you don't have to get into any specifics you don't want to talk about, but it might help to give some general idea what you meant by "out of balance."

As Equinox said it's often not a great idea to use the I Ching for diagnosis or treatment of medical problems, because we don't have medical training and there's too much we don't know about the medical side, and also, as we've all experienced, readings can be hard to interpret. I think someone once made the point that if we ask Yi a medical question, it might give an answer that's perfectly correct and comprehensible - to a doctor who understands biochemistry...............

Having said all that - I wonder if one possible interpretation is something like "don't try so hard or suffer bad side effects, your problem will correct itself in time"?

But that relies on the problem being something that has any potential at all to be corrected without this medicine, which I don't know.

Also wondering if line 2 could mean you haven't given other treatments enough time? You say, "there is nothing in my lifestyle which remains to change," so it sounds like you've tried things but they haven't worked. Any chance any of them needed a little more time? Of course I don't know that and this could sound ridiculous to you.
 

Liselle

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(Trojina will remember the time I decided to use Yi as a pharmacist NOT THAT WE HAVE TO REHASH THAT :bag:)
 

deepwater

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Thanks and clarification

I am grateful to you all for responding. Your questions help me to clarify my original question, which makes the forum a rich resource indeed.

Hormones a-changing. I’m having fluctuating symptoms which range from manageable to unmanageable. No living female relatives who might shed light on duration or intensity. I continue to work closely with my GP and do not drink or smoke, I exercise - Ive even tried (albeit recently) to cut out all sugar. My GP has put me on a course which is very potent but has known side effects. I’m a good candidate but it’s reallocating central control to tablets.

It may be that I panicked following a very bad month and, faced with my upset, the GP felt the time to draft in strong measures was at hand. But it may be that rather than alter so many facets of my life, a tablet is the smaller sacrifice.

I understand that medical advice it best solicited from medical staff. I was hoping that Yi would respond to the side effects rather than global effect. I will still follow advice from my GP so in time 63.2.5/11 will reveal itself more precisely.
 

Trojina

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Oh yes 'hormones a-changing' phew I've been so HOT in the recent snow blizzards. I do wonder if I wear as little as possible now what I will wear in summer.

I'm guessing you mean HRT pills. One time I asked for them but couldn't have them for health reasons. I find my symptoms, with no intervention, ebb and flow but everyone is so different and you may be referring to something else anyway but FWIW I tend to agree with Liselle

Having said all that - I wonder if one possible interpretation is something like "don't try so hard or suffer bad side effects, your problem will correct itself in time"?

But that relies on the problem being something that has any potential at all to be corrected without this medicine, which I don't know.

At least if it is to do with hormones whether HRT or a different hormonal period (no pun intended) I can clearly see the 11 as relating. You don't ride the flow in 11 so much as it rides you, hold onto your hat.

I have had 63.2 so many times now for periods where I have been impatient regarding recovery. For example I had it when I was getting over pneumonia which takes ages. I think the line is saying this is really temporary loss of something and not to mind it. Line 5 as discussed something which calls for smaller measures not larger ones.

My leaning here is to see it that you can get by fine without the pills, as Liselle said it does look like time sorts the problems out in line 2 and nothing major is needed. For sure time sorts things out, it has to and also with hormones they do often offer a spontaneous reprieve. I was cool for about 6 months once :rolleyes:. But that is my prejudice because I have no idea of the kind or level of your suffering, that has to be judged by you. Only you can know what is the bigger sacrifice you don't need to make. It could be as you say that actually you don't need to go through all this, the tablet is the smaller sacrifice though line 2 does clearly indicate your troubles are temporary and you need not mind them too much.


It's odd that so often the line is more about loss of face, loss of ability, the way it affects to do with physical problems rather than the physical problems themselves. Like when I had pneumonia I wasn't aware that part of my urge to get better more quickly was to do with being the person I was before I had it. So the line I think is often to do with one's sense of self, of self esteem, dignity and such. This is an immensely reassuring line anyway whichever way you choose to go.

One other thing. In 63 the crossing is made which bodes well for the stage of hormone change you are in. You are already well underway.
 

deepwater

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I call it my own personal summer.

Thank you Trojina, both for the clear detailed and kind post and for holding my (electronic) hand. Thanks too Liselle for your insight. I’ll let you know how I get on.
 

deepwater

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I call it my own personal summer.

Thank you Trojina, both for the clear detailed and kind post and for holding my (electronic) hand. Thanks too Liselle for your insight. I’ll let you know how I get on.
 

equinox

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I think the message of line 2 is critical for your understanding of the dimension of the sacrifice in line 63.5.
63.2 talks in my opinion mainly of feeling exposed and embarrassed by this exposedness (and that as others said this feelings will pass by itself).
63.5 talks about a big sacrifice that is not needed, so think of what would be the smaller and therefore more appropriate sacrifice in order to help you to better overcome this feeling of exposedness?
63.2 is talking of not taking action, 63.5 asks you for giving or doing less, so maybe you simply should do less? Whatever 'less' exactly means in this context.
63.5 could be a warning for not taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I find it interesting that with the invisible lines you get eventually to line 5.5 -- which talks of being in a relaxed mood -- waiting with wine and food -- while being inactive.
I find it very difficult to be joyful and to maintain a high spirit when I am worried about my condition and try to do everything "right" for my health. But at the same time its clear that, for feeling balanced, joy (of life) is as equally important as a good diet and the right medicine, if the circumstances require them. I don't know if this resonates with your situation, it is just an idea.
 
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diamanda

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You see you have said in the linked thread that 'flexibility ' for 14 was beyond the bounds of imagination but Diamanda how by any stretch of the imagination is 63.5 a 'truly horrible line' ?
(...)I don't think you have any basis to say to this person that the reading is 'ominous'. It simply is not an ominous reading at all.
(...)
The cow isn't just killed as in losing means of livelihood, it's an offering, a sacrifice, that is unnecessary, that's all. The line advises you don't need to be like them. Nothing ominous or horrible.

To clarify what I find ominous in this reading:
63.2 - there is a loss (of privacy, or cover)
63.5 - someone kills/murders/slaughters an ox/cow.
And yes I already said that there is some benefit somewhere else.

More specifically about 63.5, the person who kills the cow does not do this as a sacrifice. There are plenty of characters in the I Ching which speak of bigger or smaller sacrifices, but none are used here. This is not an idea I came up with myself - it was discussed on a thread somewhere on this forum (can't remember which one), and I have definitely found this to be accurate. The person in the east does not do this as a sacrifice - it's more like an act of brutality. And stupidity. Because the cow, as a symbol in the I Ching, is something we rely upon. Hence in 25.3 it's a misfortune that someone's cow gets stolen. In 56.6 it's a misfortune that the traveller loses his cow. And in 30 it's good fortune to look after someone's cow. So, to kill/murder/slaughter one's cow is ominous. Hope it makes sense to you now why I wrote what I wrote.
 
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diamanda

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As a footnote, of course there's the point of making a distinction between a small sincere sacrifice and an act of brutality. Sometimes there might be a small sacrifice, instead of a murder. And yet, I've seen this line quite often play out as "instead of making a small sacrifice, the person prefers to kill something great instead", i.e. the person simply doesn't want to sacrifice something small, and instead ends up with a cow-disaster.
 

Trojina

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More specifically about 63.5, the person who kills the cow does not do this as a sacrifice.

Yes they do. Read Hilary's commentary, read Bradford...yes it is a sacrifice what else do you imagine it is ?

There are plenty of characters in the I Ching which speak of bigger or smaller sacrifices, but none are used here. This is not an idea I came up with myself - it was discussed on a thread somewhere on this forum (can't remember which one), and I have definitely found this to be accurate. The person in the east does not do this as a sacrifice - it's more like an act of brutality. And stupidity. Because the cow, as a symbol in the I Ching, is something we rely upon. Hence in 25.3 it's a misfortune that someone's cow gets stolen. In 56.6 it's a misfortune that the traveller loses his cow. And in 30 it's good fortune to look after someone's cow. So, to kill/murder/slaughter one's cow is ominous. Hope it makes sense to you now why I wrote what I wrote.

No I don't accept any of that (well they may be stupid and brutal bit it doesn't take away the meaning of the line) but rather than explain just read Hilary's commentary on the line if you have her book. Here's some from wikiwing

'‘The Eastern people slaughter oxen.
This is not the way of the Western people’'s sincere Spring offering.
Genuinely accepting their blessing.’'

The Zhou came from the West, the Shang from the East. Shang had the wealth to slaughter any number of oxen, but that kind of ostentatious material commitment isn'’t called for here. It’'s not how big a show you can put on, it’'s your sincerity and willingness to accept grace.


So this isn't about one person killing one cow. The Shang had the wealth to slaughter many cattle....the neighbour is the Shang, not one person killing one cow.

It isn't an ominous line, we are being advised to be like the Zhou and there is blessing in that. Offering is sacrifice, the Spring offering is referred to in the line.

So I think you missed the point when you said

63.5 can be a truly horrible line. Something gets killed, and because it's a 'cow' (= means of livelihood) that's quite worrying.

it really isn't saying something must get killed when one receives this line it is just a story as in 'look the Shang did this and they were not as blessed as the Zhou who made a smaller offering'. That doesn't mean something has to get killed. The point is they, the Shang have enough wealth to sacrifice oxen and yet even their wealth does not bring the blessing of the smaller genuine spring offering of the Zhou.

That is the nub of it, the point of it. Mere wealth enough to sacrifice any number of cattle does not win the blessings smaller more genuine offerings do. To make the point of the line, the central meaning to be about the misfortune of killing a cow seems to miss the point entirely.

The whole point is having wealth does not always bring one closer to the will of heaven and the blessings thereof, you can't buy that. You couldn't buy it then and you can't buy it now. it's a great anti materialism line, bigger doesn't mean better. So in any matter where it is cast one is being advised that big offerings aren't needed.

Now there is no such thing as hard facts in Yi interpretation so I'd have to fall short of saying your view is wrong but equally I don't think you can present your view as a kind of guaranteed fact as you did when you said to me to 'please note' here

Please note that the cow gets killed in this line, not sacrificed.

To 'note' that I'd have to take your view as a fact which I don't and I don't take things as facts with Yi because a person brings in Chinese characters as if they guaranteed some kind of final meaning since there is huge variation in how a characters may be understood. To 'dedicate' to make an offering is in line 5 as far as I can see and a dedicated offering is a sacrifice.
 
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diamanda

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Yes they do. Read Hilary's commentary, read Bradford...yes it is a sacrifice what else do you imagine it is ?
No I don't accept any of that but rather than explain just read Hilary's commentary on the line if you have her book.

You asked me to explain, so I explained.
You certainly don't have to accept anything.
I already mentioned that this idea is not my idea or imagination, there was a big thread about it and about the use of the character 'kill' which has nothing to do with sacrificial vocabulary.

but rather than explain just read Hilary's commentary.
Sure, after I've researched and read and have a view of a line, I won't post it. I'll just go read instead ;-)
 

Trojina

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I was adding to my post as you posted so I wrote stuff on the dedicating and offering.

But yes thanks for explaining fully

When I said to just read Hilary's commentary I meant that I was going to copy it in here, as part of my post, but there was no point if you had the book, that's all.
 

Liselle

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Thanks, Deepwater, it does help to know this is hormonal, which for some people does settle down on its own after a while (it doesn't for everyone, though).

I'm still not sure how to read the answer, though. I think I failed to think about it as a direct answer, sorry. "What will be the effect of this medication?" Answer: "The effect will be..." - maybe 63.2 means there will be some unpleasant side effect, that could somehow be described as losing one's carriage screen, but it will be temporary?

I've never taken HRT, but for example there are medications that can make your mouth dry for a while, and then that goes away. I could imagine 63.2 describing something like that.

However now that you've said this is HRT, I wonder if Yi really is sidestepping the question just a little bit and is affirming something I've heard about HRT, that one should take the least amount possible for the shortest possible time. (Vs. taking it for the rest of your life.) That might sound like 63.5.

The two lines could also be two separate aspects... "this, and also that" or something.

(I think the bottom line is I'll be curious to know what ends up happening.... :bag:)
 

Liselle

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Another thought - again, I've never taken it so I only know this vague scuttlebutt - isn't a carriage screen (on an actual carriage) protective in various ways? Hilary says, "...loses the curtain that screened her from the world. This is a loss that leaves you exposed, insecure..." And isn't "protection" an issue with HRT? As in, some kinds are protective against cancer "a", but carry a risk ("exposed"?) for cancer "b," and other kinds have different risks and/or protective qualities? :confused: You probably know more about all that, does it help with the reading at all?


(Am now in the awkward position of having said I'll be curious to know what happens, and then in the next breath I'm mentioning bad things....hope it goes without saying that's not what I meant...)
 
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diamanda

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It may be that I panicked following a very bad month and, faced with my upset, the GP felt the time to draft in strong measures was at hand. But it may be that rather than alter so many facets of my life, a tablet is the smaller sacrifice.

I understand that medical advice it best solicited from medical staff. I was hoping that Yi would respond to the side effects rather than global effect. I will still follow advice from my GP so in time 63.2.5/11 will reveal itself more precisely.

Like all women around my age, I've also experienced lots of extreme hormonal fluctuations. When I spoke with my GP, he said "I have to inform you that one option is HRT, but the main side effect is cancer". So not sure what the biggest sacrifice is in this case. Inconvenience of hormonal fluctuations, or the risk of cancer? I know a few women who got breast cancer after HRT treatment. Then again I know other women who had HRT and didn't get cancer.

Just a few thoughts...
 

deepwater

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Thanks all for taking the time to help - it is much appreciated. I will say this about the carriage screen/loss of privacy - HRT is one of those drugs (much like ritalin for ADHD) about which many people have feelings and opinions. When I began this post I was cagey in part because my experience is that it is a very divisive treatment. And indeed when I do talk about it, I lose my privacy screen. This is before one factors in the potential health risks.

I’m naturally cautious about medication and have to be cajoled to take things. I am considered low risk because no one in my family on either side has ever had cancer and I have a clotting disorder which means both that I am low risk for stroke and that some of the menopausal symptoms are problematic for me. There is an specialist NHS clinic which I would be a candidate for...but only after I try this one last combination. Then it is a long wait but still, I don’t think this is a well publicised clinic and I feel fortunate to know about it at all.,

I asked this question because this is difficult for me to take any meds, especially risky ones... and because I wanted to see if there was an impartial source of information. What I’ve gained from doing so is to better my understanding of this hexagram and lines, and the consequent relationship to 11 - the great flow. Also, having had the benefit of so many considered responses, it will be instructive to apply the outcome retrospectively: it has been well worth asking for help here.
 

Liselle

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I understand about your privacy concerns on the forum. Maybe that's what 63.2's about.

About the medicine...I don't know...yes there's a risk, but some women have terrible life-ruining symptoms. It's a bad position to be in. :hug:

I don't feel confident in what the second line means. It did vaguely remind me of the advice to take as little HRT as possible for the shortest possible time. Could 63.5 be the closest Yi can get to saying that? (I don't have all the line texts memorized.) But there are certainly other interpretations, there always are.

Are there women who take HRT for a short time, and then stop taking it, and the symptoms have gone away and don't come back? If that's a possible outcome, I could perhaps see that in the hexagrams (63 - ending it, 11 - sweeping it all away), but I don't know.

Could there be any harm in starting it, seeing what happens, and then re-assessing? There might be no risk at all in doing that.
 

deepwater

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Hi All, I wanted to check back in and let you know that much of what was interpreted here from the reading was correct. The HRT was more than required and the side effects outweighed the benefits. I chose a different route, trying to address one of the symptoms (bleeding) and was successful - very minor surgery, one coil and two months later I am horrible symptom free. That’s not to say I have had some sort of miracle rescue...were it only possible!...just that time has indeed sorted out that which is major and left that which can be managed with a lighter touch.
 

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