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Brad's idea

dobro p

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In another thread, Brad talked about (well, briefly mentioned, actually) how people don't give feedback here about how things turned out for them. If they did this, it might round out the learning process for us a bit. He said: "Hi Dobro. You forgot to mention that these folks never ever say how it all worked out either.
To me, comparing notes to become more clear and proficient is the whole point of this forum."


So, I've got two questions about actually doing this: the first is - has anybody intentionally run a project like this here? I mean, present a situation that would benefit from a response from the Yi, do the consultation, people offer interpretations, and then... the questioner reports back about how things turned out.

Second question: is this approach in any way 'putting the oracle to the test'? (I want to avoid that, if it is.) Does it have integrity, or is it tinkering and manipulative? My take on it right now is: if the question is a legitimate concern in my life, then it would be okay, and show no disrespect to the integrity of oracle work.

What do you think?
 

bradford_h

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Hey Dobro-
I wouldn't actually set out to test the Yi for accuracy. It would play with our heads big time.
And when a dragon wags its tail, look out.
But in the normal course of events, without doing (zi ran wu wei) it would be useful to look back.
What, for instance, happened to that murder suspect we discussed months ago? He should have been set free by now. But although I read it that way with some confidence, I would also like to know (even in public) if I was wrong.
 

cal val

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Hi Dobro...

I'm with Brad on the question of experimenting. Talk about playing with fire!!! Eerrr... dragon's breath.

I also love it when I hear people talk about "telling the Yi how this is gonna work." I did that ONCE... and the Yi's answer put me in place. I had no doubt whatsoever who is in charge of the divination process... *grin* And it ain't me.

On the subject of feedback, I've reported back here with my hindsight understanding on a few occasions. One that readily comes to mind is the "Give the Yi Some Slack" thread, and the following thread is one where I elicited the interpretations of the people who post here, and then reported back the action I took and my "after-the-fact" understanding of the Yi's answer to my question. I would suggest reading the first post and my last post in that thread and then reading the various interpretations.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/2081.html?

Love,

Val

PS I will soon have another hindsight understanding of the Yi's answers to post shortly... *grin*
 

pocossin

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Dobro, testable divination is provided by literature, where we have both the author's work and biography. Divination can be made on a specimen of work, and forecast compared to biography.

For example:

"Mary had a little lamb,
Its fleece was white as snow,
And every where that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go;..."

What is the gender of the author?
What is the religious background of the author (Catholic, Protestant,...)?
What is the cultural era of the author?
Will the author have children?
When will the author's spouse die?
When will the author die?

Insight into the life cycle of the poet and answers to the questions are implicit in this small fragment of poetry. That is, the poet unconsciously put her life stuff (qi) into the poem, just as queries to Clarity contain the life stuff of the querents.

Such interpretation takes time and effort. When I have taken the hours (or days) to do the work, I have been well rewarded.

Tom

http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem911.html
Sarah Josepha Hale (1788-1879) Mary's Lamb

http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/gslj/shalott.html
Close Reading Example: "The Lady of Shalott"
-- Not bad as a Freudian interpretation, but careful divination tells another story.
 

dobro p

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Pocossin, my understanding of oracle work is that if you abandon the spirit of the oracle, then the oracle abandons you. It's also my view that the kind of thing you're suggesting is 'putting the oracle to the test', and that this is not in the spirit of the oracle.

You know, there's that story about Jesus being tempted by Satan in the wilderness, and one of the temptations was Satan daring Jesus to throw himself off the temple in Jerusalem to see if God would save him. Jesus didn't fall for it (ha!). And I think that story is not just biography, but instruction for whoever reads it.

What I had in mind was basically consultation, diary-keeping, and then sharing the outcome with people here: you ask a question (same as always), you get various interpretations of it here (same as always), you act on the advice, and then report back here about how things turned out. I think it would be okay, but Brad thinks it's risky. I'm not sure that he understands what I had in mind. Near as I can tell, the only thing that would differentiate it from the sort of consultations I usually do (private and not reported here), is that it would be a group effort (which is what happens here all the time anyway).

Brad, btw - I bought a copy of that Best book you mentioned - it's a good read, what I've had time to read so far.
 

pocossin

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Dobro, we have different philosophies. Is it an act of reverence not to look? Is the Holy of Holies profaned by pulling back the curtain? Is the sacredness of the human body sustained by forbidding anatomical research. Do I violate a taboo by examining the oracle closely? Am I a Yijing Satan?

Maybe in my small way I am, because Satan was the light-bringer (Lucifer), and I am of the opinion that light is necessary for goodness, and the way we get light is by close examination, by putting every belief to the test, and by paying attention to results. I admit that light is ultimately surrounded by a circle of darkness, but everything that can be should be brought into the light. That is the course of human history.

As a result of my impious insistence on clarity, has the oracle abandoned me? No, it hasn't. Divination that was beyond me a few years ago I can now handle.


Tom
 

dobro p

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"Dobro, we have different philosophies."

Yup. But everybody's got a different philosophy.

"Is it an act of reverence not to look?"

Sometimes it's appropriate to look. Sometimes not.

"...I am of the opinion that light is necessary for goodness, and the way we get light is by close examination, by putting every belief to the test, and by paying attention to results."

Whereas I believe that light needs to be balanced by darkness, and that there's such a thing as too much light.

"I admit that light is ultimately surrounded by a circle of darkness, but everything that can be should be brought into the light. That is the course of human history."

Everything that can be eaten should be eaten. Every woman you can seduce should be seduced. Every book you can read should be read. Every dollar you can earn should be earned.

...nah.

"As a result of my impious insistence on clarity, has the oracle abandoned me? No, it hasn't. Divination that was beyond me a few years ago I can now handle."

Good.

But we're both off topic. I wasn't wondering if it's okay to ask everything and look into everything and challenge and test and question everything with the oracle. I was asking what people thought of intentionally approaching the oracle as a group, with sincere questions that related to genuine situations in the questioner's life, working on interpretations and approaches together, and then carrying it out and reporting back.
 
J

jeanystar

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dear Dobro...
regarding:
"....I was asking what people thought of intentionally approaching the oracle as a group, with sincere questions that related to genuine situations in the questioner's life, working on interpretations and approaches together, and then carrying it out and reporting back...."

I think this would be a wonderful thing to do. It would be very much like what happened in the last online gathering, where a group worked on understanding/interpreting a reading together....Only in this case, there would be an agreement to come back and report on the results....NOT testing for accuracy, but just observing how some responses play out in real life...which is always helpful to me. It also could really help improve individual confidence in interpreting, inviting many readers to not be so afraid to come forward with an intuitive hunch or just a regular interpretation.

The questions under consideration would have to be ones that are fairly immediate, like the -"will I get the job" one recently -- OR,maybe better, something like e.g. "how can I ace the interview..."? ...but NOT ones like: "Will I meet my soulmate soon?" or something nebulous like that.
I learned alot following that discussion recently about the job interview ( think it was Malka) and the results....I would like to see more of that.
IMO, it would be interesting.
Any volunteers?
Jeannie
 

hilary

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biggrin.gif

Jeannie, this is actually what I'm working on next for 'gatherings': a group that would meet online regularly to discuss readings as they unfolded, spending the first 30 minutes of each session with everyone pitching in to help on one person's reading, and the remaining 30 mins getting feedback on how things were working out from previous readings.

This, mind you, would be a paid subscription effort (I've got to stop subsidising these things sometime!). Since the topic's come up...
happy.gif
...this seems a good moment to ask: how often do you think such a group would want to meet? Once monthly, or twice? (Twice would, of course, cost more - maybe more to the point, it would be more of a time commitment.)

Don't let me hijack this whole thread for market research, though. Of course we can have groups 'experimenting' away in both venues.
 
J

jeanystar

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Hi Hilary,
I would think twice a month would make it more available to as many participants as possible.

HOw would you work out the fee...a payment beforehand for the whole month?..or pay a week or so beforehand when you can commit to attending? ..or just a regular monthly fee, ongoing basis, whether one attends or not?

Personally, I feel a once a month *commitment* would be most do-able in terms of time for me...i get very busy in sept thru december....but it would be nice to have two dates to choose from.

My other thought is: would 30 minutes for each segment be enough??
If I recall, the last online gathering went on well over an hour.....Maybe once a month - reading, and once a month -follow-ups? Just my thoughts..I only attended one online gathering so I really dont know how they go in general.
happy.gif

Jeannie
 

soshin

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Hi, Hillary,

I second that. Twice a month with a once-monthly "commitment" would be fine with me. I often do shifts at the weekend, so it is more likely to have time, when there are more opportunities.

(Got the headset, finally...
happy.gif
Looking forward...)

Soshin
 

hilary

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Thank you - I will have to think about this! But later... as work is kind of on hold for a few days while we go and help out Mum. Sorry to invite comment and then disappear!
paperbag.gif

I will reappear as soon as I can.
 

dobro p

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I'm confused about the need for payment. (Not opposed to it, just confused.)

What do you mean by 'meet online', Hilary? A forum like this? Or a chat room? Neither of these would cost much or anything, I think. Or are you thinking about online conferencing with mics and stuff? (I've tried the online mic thing, and it didn't work at all well.)

As for how often - once or twice a month, just to see how that worked.
 

pocossin

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>"Everything that can be eaten should be eaten. Every woman you can seduce should be seduced."

Dobro, you caught me. Yes, I am trying to seduce you -- but not your body. It's your soul we Satans are after. Actually, deep in your heart I see that you already agree with me, but resist consciously acknowledging it:

>"I was asking what people thought of intentionally approaching the oracle as a group, with sincere questions that related to genuine situations in the questioner's life, working on interpretations and approaches together, and then carrying it out and reporting back."

Besides the social activity, what you really want is to have more light cast on the divination process, isn't it? So why this fear of testing or of accuracy, which Jeannie apparently thinks we ought not to want? Why not bite the apple and admit that worldly results count? Our gracious and imposed upon hostess does.

Tom
 

dobro p

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"Dobro, you caught me. Yes, I am trying to seduce you -- but not your body. It's your soul we Satans are after."

Gee, how dramatic.

"Actually, deep in your heart I see that you already agree with me, but resist consciously acknowledging it"

Believe that if you must. Have faith. Test it even. Fine by me.

"Besides the social activity..."

The group aspect is not an attraction for me - I mistrust it.

"...what you really want is to have more light cast on the divination process, isn't it?"

I want to see if the group can come up with results that the individual can't attain; I want to see if the group can benefit in a way the individual can't. You're mistaken if you think my primary motivation is for 'more light'. Benefit doesn't equate with insight necessarily.

"Why not bite the apple and admit that worldly results count?"

I never said that worldly results don't count. They do. For instance, 'worldly results' is a part of what I see as the potential benefit of the group activity I've outlined and which Hilary has mentioned. But just a part, and not the whole thing. And again, you and I are off topic again. I don't mind correcting your misapprehensions about my intended meanings a couple of times, but if it continues, I'll have to assume it's a waste of time. Most people don't have this problem with me, and I don't find you particularly unintelligent. :)
 

soshin

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"I was asking what people thought of intentionally approaching the oracle as a group, with sincere questions that related to genuine situations in the questioner's life, working on interpretations and approaches together, and then carrying it out and reporting back."

Interesting report from the alps: Some friends of mine and me are actually doing that. With very interesting results, which back Pocossins theory:

We all long for the light.

See the last lines of the Yi: "Breakthrough means determination. The strong turns against the weak full of determination. The dao of the junzi is on the rise, the dao of the petty man is leading to grief."...or something like this, I try to translate from the Wilhelm, (I don't have the Baynes translation handy here in the ward) and that translation is way above my head. But you get what I mean.
smile.gif


Too much light? Yes, why not, life is doing something for all tastes... 30,4 tells such a story, but there is also 30,5, and guess which one is leading to 13?

We are heavily into 13 now, and I see it's the same here.

"I want to see if the group can come up with results that the individual can't attain; I want to see if the group can benefit in a way the individual can't."

To do it as a group has it's pro and con's, but anyway, we are all part of the same and in the same vessel crossing that stinkin' old and then again wonderful and breathtaking river of time.

I am sure, we all are doing it "in a group", at least to some extent.

Just to add to the confusion and clarity here...
 

soshin

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To provide a little insight of what we are doing here:

The hardest thing proved to be to work out the "common question".

And then the answer is easy to understand.
 

dobro p

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I write songs and record them. For a while I did the whole thing myself, one-man band style. Results were good.

More recently I've discovered what collaborating with others can do. The result is this: music which I couldn't have achieved on my own. People in combination can achieve things a solitary person can't. It reminds me of a scripture I heard: "...wherever two or three are gathered in my name..."

It made me wonder if this approach could usefully be taken with oracle work. Yes, I know that art and oracle work aren't the same. Yes, I know that the approach I've taken with music might not work here. But that's why I'm wondering out loud in this thread.

My guess is this: if it's possible, then people will have to work out their own collaborations, just like it happens in the online musical world. It has to be done with people you can work with, people you can be creative with and take chances with and not have to waste time on side issues.

The venue: a message board like this one, plus email, could work. It would be even better if there were also access to a chat room, for instantaneous exchange of ideas. I don't think it would have to go to the level of teleconferencing to work.
 

Sparhawk

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

"...wherever two or three are gathered in my name..." <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

...will be the place and time where you can think of novel ideas to further it by means of an inquisition...??

Oops, that's history not his words. Leave it to humankind to twist each other's words around...

biggrin.gif


L
 

dobro p

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Maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea to do oracle work with people here...

:D
 

pocossin

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>"I never said that worldly results don't count. They do."

Thank you, Dobro. That's what I wanted to hear. You are one of us now.

But then, dang it, you backslide and qualify and say.... But no matter. Master will take care of that in His own good time.

Just one small point, and I will retire to the silence of the grave.

Life costs, and we are participating in a commercial site. Every bit on your screen is on a server somewhere, and rates for server space are especially high in England. And that doesn't include the personal cost to Hilary for administering this whole complex affair. She deserves compensation.

Tom
 

hilary

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Hi Dobro,

If you go to http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/gatherings/
you'll get the idea of what we've done so far. Yes, it's the online conferencing with mics and stuff (though text chat as well as voice): it does make a big difference hearing people's voices. Not teleconferencing, as that involves prohibitive international phone calls, and it's not comfortable to sit for an hour or two with a phone to your ear.

It'd cost money because it wouldn't be available elsewhere: I'd be at least ready to do the readings, would offer downloads, recordings of sessions, etc. More details when I've worked them out.
wink.gif


I'm thinking of a group of about a dozen people (allows nicely for everyone to get one or two readings of their own in per year). If it proves popular I'll start a second group - if not I'll quietly forget the idea. My next step might be an informal email survey of the 'gatherings' list to get a better idea of people's preferences and the level of interest.

There is an ordinary text chat room at this site - years since we've been near it, though. Anyone who wants to arrange a get-together at http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_chat/phpMyChat.php3 any time can, of course.

I know, I should put a link to it in the menu. Note to self: next time I edit the forum templates...
 

void

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It is really interesting when people report back what happened after they have posed their question here and received interpretations. I agree with Jeannie immediate questions with an actual definable result like "will I get the job" are great for this, we get to see how the answer actually manifested.

This format, the message board, seems ideal for that - as it allows time for the manifestation of the answer to actually happen, and everyone can can read the answers etc at leisure. Myself I don't see chat crammed into one hour as an improvment on this format. There doesn't seem any need to set up an on line live communication thing to me, much prefer to read it and no need to worry about time zones, commitments or anything. If people want to do this I guess its up to them, but I'm scratching my head and wondering why ?
 
J

jeanystar

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dear Void,
I think we could do the group approach on the boards, TOO..producing a different result than the "on-line live" gathering....
HOwver, the "online live" group reading -- and I only have experience with one, mind you --- was fascinating to me. Just to 'put a voice to a name' was so very interesting. I didnt have a mic at the time, so I could only listen, and type, but I went out and bought a mic afterwrds, I was that inspired.
Also I got some valuable insight that day on a question/reading which wasnt mine, but could have been, coincidentally. The very immediate online sharing of ideas, and, I feel, intuition, was a different experience than a board exchange....and quite extraordinary. Voices from all over the world coming through my speaker, and talking about a great mutual interest -the Yi! As a formerly solitary coin-thrower, I thought I had died and gone to heaven! BUt then maybe I am a simpleton....(tis a gift to be simple)
biggrin.gif

Jeannie
 

cal val

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Ahhhh Jeanie...

"tis a gift to be simple"

I like you... I really really like you. It's wonderful to hear someone else say that!

Is it possible you're too easily entertained as well??? Yet another gift I treasure.

Love,

Val
 

void

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Jeannie I didn't have the technology or possibly the intelligence to figure out the required technology to listen, so I guess I don't know what I'm missing out on. Maybe one day I'll get there.
 
J

jeanystar

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Void and Dobro...Don't even need headphones!

and Dear Val....Thank you! I like you too..
and by the way, I loved reading your old post on "cracking the whip"..and hex 26...very coincidental and very meaningful to me.
Love to you, sharer of wisdom.
Jeannie
 

cal val

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Hi Jeany

Glad you enjoyed the hex 26 thread. There is so much more that's happened right here in this forum. Like my last long post in the 50 to 8 thread. That experience turned me inside out... or would that be from the outside in? No matter. I'm not the same person I was when I started posting here about a year and a half ago... which is when I realized I was totally f***ing up my life doing it "my" way and surrendered to the guidance of a higher power... a higher power, incidentally, that turned out to be so much bigger than I had originally theorized it was.

There was a whole sequential peeling away of layers. This higher power said in essence, "Okay... you want us to help you fix your life? Well then prepare to learn some things and, btw, buckle up... because it's going to be a rough ride." So much of it happened right here in this forum and most of it is documented here.

I get from your posts that I've read that maybe you've had your own journey... possibly similar to mine in one way or another. And I would love to hear your story.

I have a follow-up to add to mine, and now is as good a time as any. I think I'll dedicate it to you since you opened the door.

In the meantime, I look forward to hearing your story, however and whenever you want to tell it.

With much love,

Val
 
T

tashij

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i agree, val, ...can hear jeannie's life between the lines...it's just the way you say things jeannie. from your first post, i was listening.
 

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