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Creating or Recognizing?

moss elk

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Hi all,

I've been wondering about hexagram 13.

Hilary has it as People in Harmony.
Bradford has it as Fellowship with Others.

The Image says the jun zi Distinguishes or Organizes the clans.
Distinguishes implies recognizing existing differences.
Organizes implies recognizing similarities.

So, my question is something like:
Is it more about Creating Harmony
or Recognizing Harmony?

(at the moment I'm leaning toward Recognizing.)


Your comments are welcomed.
:bows:
 

RindaR

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I see differences and similarities as two sides of the same coin, harmony happening when the boundaries mesh/meet in a way that promotes an understanding of what is being considered. If I'm right then looking at it either way would describe the topic/object/interaction at hand. Like drawing the background around a figure also describes the outline of the figure.
 

Trojina

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Hi all,

I've been wondering about hexagram 13.

Hilary has it as People in Harmony.
Bradford has it as Fellowship with Others.

The Image says the jun zi Distinguishes or Organizes the clans.
Distinguishes implies recognizing existing differences.
Organizes implies recognizing similarities.

So, my question is something like:
Is it more about Creating Harmony
or Recognizing Harmony?

(at the moment I'm leaning toward Recognizing.)


Your comments are welcomed.
:bows:

You posted this question before didn't you and no one responded then you deleted the thread so I'm answering just because it's time someone answered or you will get a complex ;) . I've not much of anything profound to say about your question but maybe the ball will roll

FWIW in the way I think of 13 I don't account for the harmony at all. I prefer a title without the word because I tend to see it as community of people, all kinds of people, people being people and all that entails and I think it relates as much to recognising differences as similarities which is what the Image says I guess.

I mean if 'Harmony' is in the title then it is but I don't feel it belongs. So I'm not sure it is either creating harmony or recognizing harmony as such but simply the necessity of fellowship. I mean fellowship as simply living amongst, rubbing along together which also entails making boundaries at times.

The image of a shop comes to mind. All kinds of people believing very different things will go to the same shop to buy what they need. What they have in common is the human need consume things to live. Inasmuch as we have those things in common there is fellowship. We 'agree' have made norms and rules that sustain fellowship amongst people who are not of the same clans. To my mind 13 is what made us make shops and traffic lights and queuing and manners.

So sometimes 13 as an answer just draws my attention to the wider human context that I am part of, community, norms, agreements and boundaries that mean sharing can happen like the local shop and the laundry both very 13 places.

Wilhlem calls it 'Fellowship with men' which I quite like and Freeman Crouch calls it 'Mustering Men'. Mustering ?

Somewhere Bradford gave a link to all the hexagram titles by different authors, it would be interesting to see all the titles for 13. Will copy link over. http://www.hermetica.info/GuaMing.htm

crossed posts with Rinda
 

Liselle

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It's not on Bradford's list, but I think somewhere someone also called it "Social Mechanism" which I've found useful at times, as I think I've seen 13 occasionally about non-human mechanisms and how parts work together.
 

Trojina

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Yes it is on Bradford's list on that link scroll down...or I can copy it but it is definitely there
 

Trojina

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Here, I copied this from the link above of Bradfords only thing is in copying the table doesn't come out right so it reads as a list of titles and authors

Taken from Bradford's book

http://www.hermetica.info/GuaMing.htm.






13 同人 Tóng Rén

Agmuller
Fellowship With Men
MWD - Hatcher
Same as Received Text
Albertson
Human Association
MWD - Shaughnessy
Same as Received Text, #6
Balkin
Fellowship With People
Meyer
People Living Together
Barrett
People in Harmony
Needham
State of Aggregation (08, 45)
Blofeld
Like-Minded Persons, Beloved Friends
Ni
Uniting with People
Bonnershaw
Fellowship
Palmer
Companions
Chan Chiu-ming
Joining Forces
Pattee
Fellowship
Chang
Grouping
Peden
Fellowship
Chu
Fellowship, Brotherhood
Perrottet
Community
Chung Wu
Fellowship
Powell
Companions
Clark
Friendship
Ra Uru Hu
Listener
Cleary
Sameness with People
Reifler
Society
Coates
A Productive Association
Richmond
Fulfillment in Difference
Collins
Community
Richter
Gathering
Crouch
Mustering Men
Riseman
Social Fellowship
Damian-Knight
Fellowship With Men, Cooperation
Ritsema & Karcher
Concording People
Dening
Cooperating with Others
Rutt
Mustering (03, 07)
Dhiegh
Fellowship With Men, United, Companionate
Seabrook
Sharing
Douglas
Fellowship
Secter
Relationship, Laison, Companionship
Feng
Together with People
Shaughnessy
Gathering Men
Fu Youde
Fellowship
Shchutskii
Relatives
Graeme
Seeking Harmony
Siu
Fellowship
Hacker
Companions
Sneddon
Companionship
Hatcher
Fellowship With Others
Sorrell
Companionship, Sharing, Cooperation
Heyboer
Mankind
Stackhouse
People Who Fit Together Well
Hoefler
Togetherness
Stein
Sisterhood
Huang, Alfred
Seeking Harmony
Sterling
Solidarity with Men
Huang, Kerson
Gathering (45)
Sung
Companionship
Javary
Agreeing with All
Toropov
Fellowship
Jou
Fellowship
Walker, Barbara
Fellowship, Community, Friends
Judge
Fellowship
Wallace
Fellowship
Karcher
Concording People
Wei, Henry
Comradeship
Kim-Anh Lim
Concord Among People
West
Fellowship
Koh Kok Kiang
Fellowship With Others
Whincup
With Others
Kumoyama, Taisen
Association of Friends or Equals
Wilhelm
Fellowship With Men
Kunst
Gather, People
Wing
Community
Legge
Union of Men, Brotherhood
Wu Jing-Nuan
Union of Men
Leichtman
Integration, Fellowship
Wu, Yi
Uniting (with) People
Liu, Da
Fellowship of Men
Wu Wei
Mingling
Lynn
Fellowship
Wu Weifarer
Unity
Machovec
Friendship
Young
Relatives
Market
Fellowship
Yu, Titus
Companions
Marshall, Chris
Fellowship


McCarver
Companionship
十翼 Shi Yi
類族 Lei4 Zu2, Class and Family

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



13.M, Key Words
Society, social organization, human association, classes of people, community
Extended family, fraternity, agreement, coalition; crossing cultural boundaries
Ethnocentrism, anthropocentrism & xenophobia; common purposes & causes
Mutual endorsement and admiration societies, like-minded people, consensus
Schools of thought, group-think, cultural diversity, relativity of mores & values
Belief systems, collective associations, mass follies; symposiums, convergences

13.G, From the Glossary
Tong2 (to) agree, assemble, assimilate, affiliate, associate, belong, come together, commune, partake in, conform to, congregate, converge, concur, gather, harmo- nize, identify, join, make uniform, share, unite (s, ed, ing) (in, with, to); (to be) alike, all, as one, colloquial, concordant, conforming, consensual, equal, identical, identified, in the company of, like minded, one, one with, similar, the same, united, together with, unanimous,; (a, the) community, assembly (ies), associates, asso- ciation, colleagues (of), agreement, convergence, fellowship (with), meeting, joining, gathering, harmony, identity, oneness, partners, sameness, unity, union; of the same ...; fellow...; simultaneously, concurrently; and, with, as well as
Ren2 (a, the) person, people, man, woman, one(s), other(s), another, human being, individual (s); each (one), other persons/people; anybody, anyone, everybody, everyone, somebody, someone (else)(’s); some, those; humanity, humankind, mankind, society; character, citizen, fellow, folk; inhabitant, member, occupant, participant, persona, personality, population, personnel, staff, role; (in) adulthood; (of) maturity; (to be) human, adult, grown, mature; humanity’s; (a, the) person’s, people’s, occupant’s; fellow-; -body, -man, -person, -ist

Notes:
What binds us together here, our consensus or shared intention, is an important part of the core meaning of 13, since this is what defines the line between Us and that Fellowship over there, across the Great Stream. This is cultural anthropology then, and has, as its highest goal, to define the line that surrounds us all, the search for human nature and its proper realtionship with the stars that hover so high above our campfires, to borrow the image from the Da Xiang
 

Trojina

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I see LiSe calls 13 'Mankind' which I quite like.

However if your question doesn't involve any other humans that's another matter maybe but then it probably always would in one way or another because you are human yourself
 

moss elk

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You posted this question before didn't you and no one responded then you deleted the thread so I'm answering just because it's time someone answered or you will get a complex .

Thanks for noticing.
I don't need another complex,
it's getting crowded in here. :bows:


I know there is some subject matter overlap and redundancy with 13, 8, and 45. In 8 one seeks to join, in 45 the leader gathers. So how does 13 stand out from 8 and 45? (I'm thinking out loud, may notice later.)
 

moss elk

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Hilary,
I've read your words in WikiWing.
You mention Creating Harmony,
but in an old thread, you seem express some doubt about the Creating part.

Lines 3, 4, and 5 seem to indicate an underlying harmony/fellowship that already exists (once you get over fear or seeing only differences)
 
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bruce_g

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Hi all, I've been wondering about hexagram 13. Your comments are welcomed.
I've used the stranded on a desert island analogy with all hexagrams but particularly with 13. While REN2 refers to man or human (mankind/humankind), other options can include fellowship or unity with yourself, but if you are one with the island and all things in and on it, seems it could also mean man's union with his environment - something I think we can all agree on as greatly needing more of. I think of Robinson Crusoe. Eventually he met up with another man/human, very different from himself, yet in the most fundamental ways, the same - TONG. Both are fire below heaven. Neither is better than the other. A namaste moment. But in the story, their fellowship didn't come easily, nor did either have to change to the other's way. Each retained their native ways; they just figured it would be better for both to work together.
 

Trojina

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I know there is some subject matter overlap and redundancy with 13, 8, and 45. In 8 one seeks to join, in 45 the leader gathers. So how does 13 stand out from 8 and 45? (I'm thinking out loud, may notice later.)

I guess a good starting place is to ask where you think they overlap or where the redundancy is ?

I guess you are thinking all three kind of deal with gathering people together ?

Very broadly I think the union is 8 is far more organic than in 13. Things flow together because they belong together, natural affinity.

Also very broadly the gathering in 45 is to do with investment, emotional or otherwise, there's an intensity to it.

I guess I'd also see 8 as occurring more often in one to one scenario questions than 13 but I can't have any certainty about that, it's just an observation.

So often 45 crops up where there is a vested interest people have together and it can be that the goal supersedes the actual tenor of the relationship which might be the why the lines are so full of weeping. If you look at the lines of these 3 hexagram you can get the flavour of how the emphasis varies within human groupings. The lines of 45 are very emotional, a lot of weeping and sighing and relief because when so much has been invested emotions run very deep. If you give 25 years of your life to your family business you have invested yourself, it's not just something you do and so it can hurt.

The lines of 8 ? I suppose they dwell on the decision of whether to join with someone/something or not, whether to throw oneself in with this whatever it is, whether it is a natural part of your direction or not. But the leaning to unite feels more integral somehow, part of one's own flow. I see 13 as more all different factions of the human made world you enter into and come out of.

The lines of 13 ? If I wrote them all out together from 1 to 6 it looks like a circle, steps of mingling in a community.. All the way from being on the threshold in line 1 to being on the outskirts in line 6 and all the shenanigans in between.

Not sure if that's the kind of stuff you were asking about ?
 
D

diamanda

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So how does 13 stand out from 8 and 45?
My two-pence:
8 - living side-by-side with people located very nearby
45 - something like going to church with your whole community
13 - going out with good friends

So, my question is something like:
Is it more about Creating Harmony
or Recognizing Harmony?

(at the moment I'm leaning toward Recognizing.)
I'll agree with you, recognising. For me 13 is about recognising who your real friends are. People you resonate with, have lots of common characteristics, likes (and so on), with. Of course the notion of good friends includes the idea that you also accept each other's flaws, but 13 being 13, the similarities should outweigh the differences, otherwise you're not true friends. I don't believe you can create true friendship. I don't believe you can say "ok I've now decided to be best friends with person X, let's create that regardless of any fundamental differences we have".

The Image says the jun zi Distinguishes or Organizes the clans.
Distinguishes implies recognizing existing differences.
Organizes implies recognizing similarities.
Looking closer at the Image, the superior man, within a "similar/type" of "clan/nationality", further "distinguishes/recognises" "items". I see it like there are already some similarities, and you look for even closer similarities, i.e. for close friends.

When any lines change we depart from the whole notion of the hexagram. Hence none of the lines of 13 describes a true current friendship. 13.1 says hanging out just at your doorstep. 13.2 sounds like a claustrophobic clan. 13.3 describes distrustful enemies. 13.4 sounds like wanting to go out there and meet others but you can't. 13.5 describes very old friends who are no longer close friends (speaking from quite a few experiences with the line). 13.6 has a very neutral far-away feel about it.
 

bradford

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For me the real key to understanding 13 is the fire under the stars.
This is where culture began, where all our first stories were told,
around the fire at night. And we still dance around that fire at night,
or at least those still in touch still do.
 

steve

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I see like a shaman or even John Denver

like a fabric, it doesnt mean that they are your friends

how to meet common ground

I remember I read Hillary said she had a dinner party she related to hexagram 13

It made sense to me,

hard work, thanks i understand better

Steve

(ps i have my hands in the air writing this and my wife asked why i am doing that < just some humour)
 
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hilary

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If any CC people want to call my name on a thread - including on the public forums - just type @hilary; and I will get a notification.

Between creating and recognising... quite a lot of creating. If the harmony were a given, there would be less need in the lines for fortifications, weapons and armies. A Sequence perspective: 8 is something like an emergent property from 7's Army. 13 is a response and solution to the crisis of 12.
 

moss elk

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Thanks everyone,

What resonates with me, my question, (and the reading which prompted this thread)
is that it isn't necessarily/wholly about creating/recognizing (which a few lines do point to). I think it may be more about the actual BEING in fellowship with others,
as opposed to a hermit living off in a cave. (which I've been doing for a few years now.)
 

steve

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Just to clarify what I mean't by John Denver as I was getting rushed out the door by fiance to a family thing (Friday night) , I probably should have said "camp fire singer"
Bradford's comment gave me an image of shaman uniting or communicating to the tribe.
I have much better understanding of the hexagram now.
I used get warm and fuzzy feelings almost when I cast it ( oh great I'm done), it can be a be a bit of work in hindsight.

Steve
 
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rosada

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I think there may be something of value to be had from considering the sequence:

In the image of 11. Peace we have the man distributing gifts.
In the image of 13. Fellowship in the open we have the man organizing the people according to their gifts.

11.1 the man undertakes something. (like sowing seeds)
12. 1 The man perseveres. (Hard work being a single seed under a pile of dirt but perseverance brings success!)
13.1 The men are all equal. (The successful seeds sprout. Everyone here is already a winner!)

Then to continue with 13..
13.2 Need for bio-diversity. Too much inbreeding leads to deformities. > 1. Creativity. Fellowship with men in the open needs to create more openness.
13.3 Fear and jealousy when seeing others who are different.
13.4 Curiosity overcomes fear of others who are different.
13.5 Sharing our gifts. Becoming stronger through the act of sharing. Sharing overcomes fear of being ripped off.Realizing we're not so different after all.
13.6 Fearlessly expanding into even a wider, even more open state. Going off into the unknown fortified with the knowledge we've got what it takes to continue.

So does Fellowship with Men in The Open create or recognize harmony? Perhaps the I Ching is saying that by sorting ourselves into groups with different gifts we create the conditions for sharing and that sharing leads to recognizing our inter-dependance and thus we recognize our harmony.
 

rosada

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Further thoughts...

Just noticing how the image for 11. Peace has the ruler (god?) distributing gifts, then the image for 12. Standstill has the man refusing gifts (revenue) and then 13. has the man organizing people according to their gifts - The Haves and The Have-nots? 14. Possession in Great Measure and 15. Modesty have to do with sharing and making all things equal.
 

rosada

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Further thoughts...

Just noticing how the image for 11. Peace has the ruler (god?) distributing gifts, then the image for 12. Standstill has the man refusing gifts (revenue) and then 13. has the man organizing people according to their gifts - The Haves and The Have-nots? 14. Possession in Great Measure and 15. Modesty have to do with sharing and making all things equal.
 

heylise

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The great image of 13 says: Heaven associating with fire: Tóng Rén. The noble man classifies the clans (people, race, things) and differentiates things (to 'thing' often is attached what is meant: animal-thing, plant-thing, so it is used for 'every' thing).

Very interesting is the character bian, differentiate or distinguish:
“Picture of an animal’s track” —Karlgren.
“The steps of a wild beast 象. The strokes represent the print of the claws, and the points the print of the soft parts. The examination of the trail indicating the kind of animal, hence the extended meaning, to discriminate, to part, to sort out. The excreta giving the same indication, 釆 means dung in 粪. ” —Wieger.
(釆 is old form of 辨 ‘discern’)

I don't think any creating is associated with 13. It is a matter of recognizing classes, foxes versus bears, or your kind of people versus not-your-kind. Well - maybe one could create one's 'own kind'? Like making a huge Yi-forum and getting lots of people interested in the Yi? Still I don't think that would really be what is meant with 13. Just the result: when the group exists, we recognize each other. :bows:
 

bradford

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Very interesting is the character bian, differentiate or distinguish:I don't think any creating is associated with 13. It is a matter of recognizing classes, foxes versus bears, or your kind of people versus not-your-kind. Well - maybe one could create one's 'own kind'? Like making a huge Yi-forum and getting lots of people interested in the Yi? Still I don't think that would really be what is meant with 13. Just the result: when the group exists, we recognize each other. :bows:

Mine was similar to that:
Heaven accompanies flame
Fellowship with Others
The noble young one, according to kind and family,
distinguishes the beings
 

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