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Introducing a new I Ching engine for generating complex readings

anandavala

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Hi there,

I would like to draw your attention to a new I Ching engine.

It uses a new approach, where the structure of the I Ching is modelled within a database, which enables complex readings to be generated.

I believe this could evolve into something quite useful. Please give it a try.

https://ichingdb.pythonanywhere.com/ichingdb/

Any feedback would be much appreciated. The work is open source and non-commercial.

It is currently just a prototype, but eventually it can be customised to perform any type of reading and to use any set of commentaries.

To show it in action I asked the question:

Please speak to the onlineclarity community to introduce them to ichingdb?

To be honest I'm not sure how to interpret this response, it was a rather vague question...

Perhaps it is best to ask your own questions.

Enjoy :)
 

moss elk

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oh boy.
Call me Mr. thunder.

Was the reading 22 changing to 21?
If so, that would be 22.3.4 (21)

Your link talks about lines 1, 2, and 4.
Why is that?

And the 'Manifesting' and 'Inspiration' are also awkward and off the mark.

The comments about interplay between lines also creates uneeded complexity (clutter) that will only confuse querents.
 
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anandavala

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Thanks for the feedback :)

I have now added a line at the top of the readings with the initial and resultant hexagrams.

BTW that reading was 22 --> 50.

I also fixed the problem with inspiration and manifestation.

Re the interplay or mirror world - I find it very informative, but I could make it optional. Eventually it could all be fully customisable.

BTW I should add that the interface and formatting is obviously very rough - I have mostly been working on the database back-end that does all the work behind the scenes.

Feedback from people using it is helping to refine the interface, so thank you very much!
 
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diamanda

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Hi anandavala,

The results/consultation page is extremely complicated. So much text, so many different colours, and at the bottom the conclusion is 'none'. If someone has taken the time to read all the way through, it's disappointing to see that word 'none' at the end - maybe just remove it? Overall it's really hard to read and understand even for me who have decades of experience.

Also, who is the perceived audience for this, who did you have in mind? You're calling the resulting hexagram 'relating', and this is a modern view of a small minority. The resulting hexagram is traditionally called the future hexagram, and it traditionally indicates the future outcome.
 

rosada

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Maybe I'm a member of the small minority but I thought the second hexagram was commonly known as the "resulting" or the "relating" hexagram and am not aware of it being known as the "future" hexagram. Further, there's a lot of mixed opinions as to whether the resulting hexagram indicates the future. Some find it helpful to think of as describing the context. Anyway, not a biggie but jm2c.
 
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diamanda

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Hi Rosada,

In most classic translations (if not in all), the resulting hexagram is said to show the future. Also in China people (still) take the resulting hexagram to mean the future. So that's what I meant by minority - that the majority (of books and people) read it as an outcome. I said this as a fact - not as a judgement, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 

anandavala

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Thanks! I've related to the I Ching personally for about twenty years but I have little idea about how others relate to it. This feedback is very helpful.


Re the intended audience:

I made it largely by accident and have used it myself, however it has urged me many times to not keep it to myself and to share it, so I am trying to.

The eventual aim is to create an enabling technology that is fully customisable and can be used in many different ways by anyone who wants to consult the I Ching; using any method and any set of text fragments. However the prototype illustrates just one method and one set of text fragments.


Re related or future hexagram:

Thanks, I'll take that on board, it can be configurable. Eventually each user will be able to configure how their reading is compiled and labelled.


Re the conclusion is 'none':

The 'notes' and 'conclusion' are two text fields that the user can edit to record their response to the reading. However in this prototype there are no user access controls so anyone could edit them, hence these are disabled in the prototype but still shown so that people know that they exist.


Re so much text:

I'm not sure I understand... if someone uses a book to compile the reading they will encounter far more text located in multiple separate fragments. That is just the way that the I Ching works. Do you have any suggestion on how this can be reduced without ignoring aspects of the reading?

Eventually users could configure it to ignore aspects that they don't use. That way people can customise the level of complexity.

BTW the colours were an attempt to reduce the complexity by showing which fragments are related to which, but I may have gone too far, I'll reduce this.

Cheers :)
 

moss elk

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Re so much text:

Have you heard the expression, 'K.I.S.S.'?

Complexity is not Depth of understanding. When the line text has 4 concise words, 444 words written about it don't always enhance it.
 

steve

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I think its kind of interesting and could be done, especially on an AI level ( artificial intelligence) the computer could pull up all the information possible about a said reading.

A program like this could be used like this for beginners especially however like a lot technology would make people lazy. Most of the progam's out there currently are laughable however this is one much is better than others i have seen.

Seeing this I would like a program that pulled up all the quotes and info from the people I read and in one push of a button. Its same thing as when you use to have to go to the library and manually look for the book, it could save time.

I would love a program especially for business readings (hehe)

however I dont agree that the relating hexagram is the future.

Hmmmm, its got me thinking anyway

Steve
 
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veavea

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Ooh... I have never heard of it being called the 'future hexagram', I have only ever heard it called the 'relating hexagram'! Not that it matters, although I would say that readings aren't always about predictions, so how can it be always about the future? Or am I being overly literal?

But, I think the engine is very difficult to read and interpret. The interpretations given for the lines are WAY too much information. Maybe you are encouraged to share it so as to enhance your understanding of what is and isn't working, and of how to consider your approach to interpretation?

I'll be clear though, never in a month of Sundays could I design my own engine so hats off to you!! :bows:
 
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veavea

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Seeing this I would like a program that pulled up all the quotes and info from the people I read and in one push of a button. Its same thing as when you use to have to go to the library and manually look for the book, it could save time.



Steve

Well, James deKorne's website basically does that...
 

anandavala

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Thanks everyone for the feedback. I had no idea there would be so much aversion to reading and interpreting text. Isn't that an essential part of consulting the I Ching? I don't know how to automate that.Steve understands the intended purpose of ichingdb; i.e...Instead of having to manually calculate the various hexagrams and then flick through a book to refer to the relevant text fragments for a reading. Ichingdb automatically collects all of the relevant text fragments in one place. It is not meant to eliminate the need for reading and interpreting the text, and it can't replace the need for intuition! If you think only four words are needed then it's up to you to choose which four. Ichingdb simply provides easy access to the relevant text fragments. The rest is up to you...This feedback has revealed how important it is to make the level of detail configurable. Some prefer to use a reference book but it seems many prefer to use a reference pamphlet. This can be accommodated - eventually. Cheers,John
 
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veavea

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There’s no aversion to reading text, when I cast I consult my iPhone app, Alfred Huang’s complète I Ching on kindle, my hard copy of Wilhelm, and James DeKorne’s website which breaks down about 7 or 8 translations! In my case I found the layout visually incoherent and the *choice* of text intellectually incoherent. There is a poetry and symbolism in the I Ching that I don’t think is reducible to casual ‘cookbook’ reductions - which made the interpretations equally difficult to assimilate.

This response probably sounds a bit sharp - not intended so, but wanted to be clear! The quantity of text needs to be clearly justified, accurate and easy to navigate. Otherwise it’s just a confusing mess. While you’re fine-tuning I’d suggest radically simplifying it until it starts to hang together. :)
 

anandavala

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There seems to be a persistent misunderstanding in this thread. I apologize if I haven't been clear enough. People are assessing it in terms of aesthetics and user functionality, as if it is a polished consumer item. Obviously it isn't. As it states on the web site: "This is a minimal prototype of a new "I Ching engine"... The front-end website is deliberately minimal, showing only the core functionality. This can be customised in the future. The purpose of this website is to exhibit the functionality of the back-end engine."Thus there has yet to be any consideration given to what text is used and how it is presented. These aspects are currently just minimal and rudimentary. The relevant aspect is the way that it can calculate the various components of a reading and assemble all of the fragments in one place. Which text is used and how it is presented can be configured by the user to suit their particular preferences.
 

anandavala

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This exchange has really helped to clarify things! Ichingdb provides a customisable framework. Similar to blogging software, the same underlying engine can be customised to implement different types of look, feel and function. The website shown is just a very basic example. It can be customised in several ways: 1. It can be populated with different I Ching texts. 2. Different types of readings can be performed involving different component hexagrams and lines. 3. Different levels of detail can be shown. 4. The results can be formatted in different ways using templates and themes. Just as blogging software has enabled the creation of many types of blogs. Ichingdb is a prototype of something that I suspect could enable the creation of many types of I Chings.
 

hilary

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Miscellaneous quick thoughts...

When you receive Hexagram 22 you should probably not be surprised to get a lot of people talking about presentation ;)

I like the idea of putting subsidiary/ related/ 'mirroring' text in grey - that gives a good visual hint that this is a reflection on your reading rather than part of it. I would like to see colour used to show priority: big, bold and black for the Yijing text of the reading cast; grey for contextual hexagrams such as mirrors, shadow hexagram etc; a colour to differentiate commentary from translated text.

This will be easier with other translations than Karcher's, as he does tend to blur/blend commentary and translation.

Speaking of Stephen - do you have his (or his publisher's) permission for this?

Edited to add: hexagrams? trigrams?
 

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