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Hex 13.5 >30

equinox

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Usually, Hex 13.5 has always meant reconciliation after a fight for me. Or as Trojina once wrote somewhere, the sympathetic agreement to go separate ways.

But one story I go through is totally different from my other experiences with 13.5. There's one man in my life who means a lot to me, for our 'relationship' I even threw 13.5 three times in a row when we got to know each other, which I interpreted in such a way that it would go well between us eventually somehow. But that hasn't happened yet, not even after 3 years. I wonder why Yi gave me this clearly painful but still hopeful line several times in a row when we first met, if absolutely nothing ever should come out of it. Not even a proper farewell and mutual understanding, but just blockages. At the beginning we were both not free but now we are, still there are strange obstacles blocking our connection in every way. Not even as friends we found together til now. Alone this would make me happy. Now I haven't talked to him for about nine months and when we accidently meet each other we both can't even really look each other in the eyes. It is ridicoulus but his presence makes me feel so shy and vulnerable.
I wonder if I just have to be more patient (not in a sense that I am waiting for him, I always try to enjoy this short life we have as much as possible) or if I let myself totally be led on the wrong track. I am happy about every thought of you about Hex 13.5.

Thanks a lot :)
 
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diamanda

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Every time I got this combination it meant something like "old acquaintances", "the old group", or "old enemies". Notice how the line speaks of armies. Also notice that the initial 13 speaks of friends, or similar people, and how 30 is about separation and each looking after their own sweet self only. We never quite drifted completely apart with said people (3 different ones), we spoke from time to time, with huge intervals in between. It's like a "to be continued (but in the same manner)". So I believe you'll speak again at some point, but not in the way you'd like to.

Wilhelm's and Confucius's commentaries on this line are, in my opinion, perhaps the most off the mark anywhere in the I Ching.
 

equinox

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Thank you a lot for your disillusioning answer, diamana. That's not meant ironically -- no hope is often better than false hope.

Yes, it is true that Confucius' and Wilhelm's interpretations are most probably far too romantic. But it has to be said that other translators (for example Hilary, Blofeld and Bradford) also speak of a development that begins with grief and ends with joy. But since nothing is final, you can probably actually see it as a kind of circle, just as you said: To be continued. Especially, since "people in sameness" is a common phrase in interpretations of this line: I think you can either see this in such a way that there was already a friendship before the break occurred, or in such a way that there was maybe no friendship, but a connection on the heart level that existed from the beginning.

My experiences are very different from yours, by the way. I had 13.5, for example after a huge fight with a friend, after that I thought we would never talk again. I asked the I-Ching and received 13.5. I thought: Oh no, please, I don't want anything more to do with this person. It took us almost a year to get along again but now we are as close as we used to be.
I'm not saying that to put things into a perspective that I like to believe, I'm not making any inquiries here in the hope that the forum helps me to sugarcoat my situation.

On Hex 30: I'm not sure Hex 30 always means separation, while it surely can mean seperation as you see in my recent example.

What I find remarkable in this context: I do not believe in this concept of "twin flames", which is now very popular in new age esotericism (even though its origin is very old, think of Platon's philosophy), because I think that there are many soul partners for every human being. But I find it interesting that Hexagram 30 is indeed structurally constructed like a twin flame. I think there is a strong polarization here: between dependence and independence, between attraction and repulsion.
 
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diamanda

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Yes I see what you mean, 30 is a strong hexagram with obvious polarisation.

a connection on the heart level that exists from the beginning
Neither 13, nor 13.5, nor 30 contain any characters which mean or denote heart or heart connection.
 

equinox

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Neither 13, nor 13.5, nor 30 contain any characters which mean or denote heart or heart connection.

Okay, then let's call it officially just "connection". It is only my personal experience that in 13.5 the heart is very much involved.
 
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diamanda

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Well I'm not sure what sort of connection this is, sounds more like a disconnection. You seem to want to eventually be together as a couple, but he doesn't sound to want the same. For 3 years consistently this is not happening, even when you're both free. You said that this is painful to you, and that his presence makes you feel shy and vulnerable.

How is this situation a 'connection', and how is it good for you?
And also, how did you phrase your question?
 

equinox

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Well I'm not sure what sort of connection this is, sounds more like a disconnection. You seem to want to eventually be together as a couple, but he doesn't sound to want the same. For 3 years consistently this is not happening, even when you're both free. You said that this is painful to you, and that his presence makes you feel shy and vulnerable.

How is this situation a 'connection', and how is it good for you?
And also, how did you phrase your question?

When I wrote about 13.5 in my second post of this thread I spoke in general terms of 13.5 and its translations and the experiences I made so far in other contexts -- not of him and me, if you read it carefully.
I don't think you can describe the dynamics between us with "you want and he doesn't." And I also don't know from which words of mine in this thread you take this insight. It's a little more complex, basically we both always liked each other, but at the same time we've always behaved uptight towards each other. I had to learn that being aloof and anxious is fatal in relationships, that's a good thing to know at least for the future. You don't have to convince me that it won't work, because I was sceptical about it myself from the beginning anyway. I explicitely said that I don't want to sugarcoat the issue in no way.

I didn't phrase a specific questions, this is three years ago and my approach to the Yi was quite amateurish back then -- I only thought about the situation and threw the coins.

You asked how this is good for me: That was not my question. I know myself that it is bad to be caught in unfulfilling life situations. But it is not that I am hanging there since three years and wait for a love relationship with him, as I already said. It is just that I wished the situation between us would be finally resolved, in which way ever. Since I find it hard to let go if I never understood what this connection meant. I don't know if more patience is requested or if it will be unresolved forever. Unspoken feelings haunt me.

Anyways, thank you a lot for your help!
 
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diamanda

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I don't think you can describe the dynamics between us with "you want and he doesn't." And I also don't know from which words of mine in this thread you take this insight.
I didn't reach this conclusion by any words of yours, just from the overall story. It's obvious you really like this guy and given the opportunity would be with him, and I gather he already knows that (especially because you feel shy around him, a clear sign we fancy someone). And yet he hasn't acted, so because of that I guessed that he's not after a relationship. Men usually are not shy at all about going after a woman they want. My apologies if I'm way off the mark and this doesn't apply in this case.

It is just that I wished the situation between us would be finally resolved
I don't quite understand what you mean here. Resolved how? Some situations never get closure, if that's what you mean. Or perhaps you could take the first step and speak with him, since it matters so much to you.

I had to learn that being aloof and anxious is fatal in relationships
That's very true. I hope that you both solve your inhibitions and obstacles and you get the resolution you want.
 

equinox

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Thank you very much for your words and your input, diamanda. I have to go offline until tomorrow, then I'll give you a detailed answer. Have a good day!
 

Trojina

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Usually, Hex 13.5 has always meant reconciliation after a fight for me. Or as Trojina once wrote somewhere, the sympathetic agreement to go separate ways.


:confused: I said that ?

Anyway looking at the actual line from Hilary's translation in WikiWing


'People in harmony first cry out and weep, then afterwards they laugh.
Great leaders direct their coming together.'


I have numerous examples in my journal of this line signifying differences overcome for the sake of, how shall I put it, well humanity, community. I've never seen it show up in the hearts and flowers kind of way (though I'm sure it can do), it seems more to me the case that whatever comes between the people in this line it isn't enough to divide them into serious or lasting alienation. If I look at all the times I got this line, by itself in particular, they all seem to be times where division came about through systems, belief systems even legal systems. I once even had this line for the outcome of allegation of fraud against me, which was resolved. That was more a case of 'computer says xyz' but when you talk to the people involved it's another matter. Also had it with people who I had different views on religion to that broke us up as we were in a group, but now we are still friendly.


I think the 'great leader' is the clear guiding vision beyond the disconnection. There's something more than personal feelings there, there's a clear sense of shared humanity.

But one story I go through is totally different from my other experiences with 13.5. There's one man in my life who means a lot to me, for our 'relationship' I even threw 13.5 three times in a row when we got to know each other, which I interpreted in such a way that it would go well between us eventually somehow. But that hasn't happened yet, not even after 3 years. I wonder why Yi gave me this clearly painful but still hopeful line several times in a row when we first met, if absolutely nothing ever should come out of it. Not even a proper farewell and mutual understanding, but just blockages. At the beginning we were both not free but now we are, still there are strange obstacles blocking our connection in every way. Not even as friends we found together till now. Alone this would make me happy. Now I haven't talked to him for about nine months and when we accidently meet each other we both can't even really look each other in the eyes. It is ridicoulus but his presence makes me feel so shy and vulnerable.
I wonder if I just have to be more patient (not in a sense that I am waiting for him, I always try to enjoy this short life we have as much as possible) or if I let myself totally be led on the wrong track. I am happy about every thought of you about Hex 13.5.

Well the obstacles aren't enough in the long term to hold you in alienation to one another. Whether this becomes a friendship or something more it doesn't really indicate but clarity of vision(30 as relating) does mean you remain in a friendly connection. In short I would say nothing is broken. Maybe nothing happened yet but nothing is broken, you can resume a friendly connection there is in the end no obstacle to that.


Now as I said above I have had this line for most mundane matters, I don't think it has to mean deep affection but it does mean people seeing one another as human beings. Seeing people as human beings beyond categorizations/systems/beliefs etc.


So maybe this line shows that you still do 'recognize' each other beyond the restrictions of the roles that you may have and so on
 

equinox

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Sorry, Trojina, I'm afraid I took your words out of context. I can't find the part of the text in the archive I was referring to anymore -- anyways, I wanted to delete this misinterpretation respectively abbreviated representation of your words from my EP but it is too late for using this forum function.

Thank you very much for your interpretation, I think you have worked the core point of 13.5 incredibly well.

In my case it is indeed true that a kind of system was the starting point of the problems: We used to work together and it was difficult to meet lightheartedly and unbiasedly for formal reasons alone.

The temporary break of friendship with a friend, which I described in my second posting, was btw also due to systemic matters: We have argued because of differences of political opinion, but here too, as you generally stated on 13.5, these differences couldn't be strong enough to give up the connection with the human behind those views in the long run.

Your answer gives me an emotional peace in this matter that I have wanted for a long time. The interpretation of Hex 30 in this context as a clarity of vision has given me a whole new insight – I have so far interpreted it much more as a polarity between attraction and repulsion and between dependence and independence. Which may be true as well somehow. But I have completely neglected the aspect of (shared) clarity in Hex 30 as relating hex of 13.5 so far.
The mere fact that we both, him and me, somehow know that arrogance or ill will are in no way the reason for our alienation is helpful. And it's true, I never thought bad of him, and now, according to this interpretation, I assume that he probably looks at it the same way, which is comforting.

Possibly 13.5 here does not mean a "happy end", but rather describes the nature of a relationship in which two people are both at least able to recognize the depth of their connection. Maybe no great friendship or even love relationship is intended for us, who knows, but that is probably not so much our personal fault. This is now much easier for me to accept thanks to your interpretation. I am okay with that whatever the outcome will be and even if there is no concrete outcome at all. I think, like always, things fall into place like they should, if you let them.
 
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equinox

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I didn't reach this conclusion by any words of yours, just from the overall story. It's obvious you really like this guy and given the opportunity would be with him, and I gather he already knows that (especially because you feel shy around him, a clear sign we fancy someone). And yet he hasn't acted, so because of that I guessed that he's not after a relationship. Men usually are not shy at all about going after a woman they want. My apologies if I'm way off the mark and this doesn't apply in this case.

That may be true, if one orients oneself at the classical gender roles. Now I see why you put it like that.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Resolved how? Some situations never get closure, if that's what you mean. Or perhaps you could take the first step and speak with him, since it matters so much to you.

I mean resolvement it in a sense of shared clarity. But since Hex 30 in itself means clarity, as has been stated in this thread, the clarity between us may already be there, but driven by my insecurities I wasn't able to understand this. Anyhow you are right, that you can't resolve everything. (Taking the first step is a good idea btw)


I hope that you both solve your inhibitions and obstacles and you get the resolution you want.

Thank you very much for your kind wishes! :)
 

equinox

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@Trojina

I found the posting I was referring to:

Strange reading really....but this isn't the first time 13.5 has indicated an amicable parting for me. It has this feel of 'well we kind of tried, it wasn't going to work but it was good to be with you and all the best' kind of thing, without regrets....with both of us still surveying the territory to be explored....like friendly explorers exploring seperately :D we thought we might go up a mountain together since we both liked mountains and then decided to go up seperate mountains (shook hands, no hard feelings 13.5) and off we went out from the gate/foot of the mountain (13.6)

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?13559-31-help

This is now so many years ago -- did it remain at that "amicable parting" or did you resume these relationships at a later point somehow?
I hope it is okay, that I quoted you here and not in the original thread? If not then I am going to delete it of course.
 
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Trojina

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This is now so many years ago -- did it remain at that "amicable parting" or did you resume these relationships at a later point somehow?
I hope it is okay, that I quoted you here and not in the original thread? If not then I am going to delete it of course.


It's okay. I can't be 100% sure who this was about as it was before I was using the Resonance Journal.


Hmm I think it was about a woman I was going to work with, yes must have been her, wow was it that long ago. Um anyway after we parted I'd just see her around now and then and we'd have a little chat that's all but I haven't seen her for some years now. I suppose if I did see her we might have a little chat the way people do when they meet on the street or in the park and so on. I don't think either of us would ever want to resume trying to work together though.


The more examples of mine I look at of 13.5 the more it seems to be around the relationship not being damaged by the differences. Weirdly I see I had it about a group of channellers ...er people that claim to be chanelling spirits that is, think I had this and other lines about whether to trust them. Anyway it was a similar kind of scenario in a way. It was like whether I believed them or not there was nothing there to bring enmity. I could still drink tea with them for example and chat. As I mentioned it also showed up re differences in a religious group, I can still drink tea with them and chat. Sounds like all we do in the UK is drink tea and chat :rofl:

There's a big difference between that and falling out with someone. I'm trying to pinpoint what it is, why it's different in this line. I mean at other times differences can really escalate into total alienation and disconnect but with this line they don't. I suppose it's sometimes down to just liking someone to the point where they might say absurd things you don't agree with but that can't get in the way. If it was someone you didn't like then it would get in the way more. Although as I said for me the line has come for situations where there's no personal relationship. Like with the accusation of fraud the letter was worded in a horrible way but when I met the man behind the letter he said not to worry it's just how the computer words these things.


But I don't think you can compare your situation with me and the woman I was going to work with because we were never close really whereas it sounds like this person was very close to you. So I don't think your experience will necessarily mirror other people's.


I wonder if there is anyone here who did get 13.5 for resuming a close intimate relationship ? I have the idea there was someone in the archives who may have done. Sounds like you very much want this to resume.
 

pooja123

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I think Yi gives us guidance and clarification on the state of our mind and situations. So if both parties are willing to reconcile , you can ask Yi on how best you can approach him in regards to building a better relationship. Yes men are not shy to approach a love interest but when there is a history he probably will hesitate due to past hurts. Sometimes the woman needs to thaw the ice first and the rest follows. Yi has helped me a lot so far concerning communications with my loved ones. I am so thankful.
 

equinox

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Thank you so much for your encouraging words, pooja123.
It is true that somebody needs to thaw the ice and this should not be tied to gender roles.
I am also very thankful for the help of the I-Ching, it gives me a lot of hope and also saved me from making mistakes many times before. But sometimes it just couldn't stop me rushing into disaster ;)
 
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usilser

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Hello Equinox, I think it will be useful if I share my experience about this line.
I had to travel to meet my lover. When I arrived at the airport they informed me that our suitcases was left behind and We had to wait 2 days till we had our suitcases. I had to wait to see him (no clothes to wear for our date) till the day that I had my suitcase and I was really crying because I couldn't meet him. Finally, we met and we were so so happy together but I had to leave again. The story continues...

Hope it helps.
 

equinox

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Thank you Trojina for looking for so many examples for 13.5 and trying to figure out what the unifying moment in all these 13.5 experiences was.
Finally, as you have worked out in this thread, the uniting moment of all those situations seems to be that the unifying is ultimately stronger than the separating in 13.5. And of course many of the partially opposing shades of Hex 30 (the separating, the unifying, the clarity) seem to be reflected in this conflictual yet hopeful line 13.5.

So Hexagram 13 with all its lines indirectly shows that we all have something integral in common, even though a lot may divide us and this "shared humanity", as you put it, becomes very clear (relating Hex 30, clarity) and tangible in 13.5 situations.
Taking the overall meaning of Hex 13 in account, I think you're right and it's only logical that systems of all kinds here are the dividing factor that's overcome with 13.5. Systems are designed to connect groups of people for specific purposes, while they inevitably and always exclude others. Ironically, they even very often divide those people who are meant to belong to the same system. Regardless of whether those constructed boundaries are legal, political, religious, spiritual or gender based etc.

The more I think about 13.5 and this thread the less kitschy I find Wilhelms and Confucious interpretations. It is probably true that one of the sweetest and most hopeful and peacemaking things you can experience is this recognition of shared humanity, even if just for a brief moment, no matter in what context. I can therefore understand why they use those most flowery words.
 
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equinox

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Hello Equinox, I think it will be useful if I share my experience about this line.
I had to travel to meet my lover. When I arrived at the airport they informed me that our suitcases was left behind and We had to wait 2 days till we had our suitcases. I had to wait to see him (no clothes to wear for our date) till the day that I had my suitcase and I was really crying because I couldn't meet him. Finally, we met and we were so so happy together but I had to left again. The story continues...

Hope it helps.

Yes, it helps. :) This is a cute story -- thank's lot for sharing!
So are you still together now?
 

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