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Question about Transitional Hexagrams

marybluesky

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Hello everyone!

I was curious about the transitional hexagrams reading method. I searched it on this forum and found this archived thread:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/archive/index.php/t-24550.html

So I used the method for a reading I cast some days ago, but the description of changing lines of original hexagram & the hiding lines resulted from transitional hexagrams could be contradictory (For instance, the result was 50.2.5.6. Look at the description of 50.6 and 33.6).

What do you think of the transitional method? Do you use it? If yes, what it means to you compared to the interpretation of original hexagram's lines (the traditional method)? Which one is more important?
 
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Freedda

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Mary, I don't really know how to answer your question. I have tried looking at the transitional lines and hexagrams, and also the 'steps of change' method. I am not at all saying they are wrong or that they don't work, only that I found the amount of information a bit overwhelming. Maybe when I'm more versed at interpretation, it will serve me.

My general understanding (which is admittedly limited) is that you can look at the sequence of lines and hexagrams as a sort of story, or, you can look at the corresponding lines (Fan Yao) and hexagrams (Zhi Gua) as providing you additional information to help you understand the reading.

Bradford Hatcher (in the thread you linked to) covers this when he says:

"... when ... working with transitional hexagrams, I do that in addition to reading it the conventional way .... It's just a way of getting more information, and not intended as a replacement of the tradition."

Sometimes the Yi seems to provide us information or guidance in a 'negative' or seemingly contradictory way, as in: it is NOT this; or, you should NOT go this way - which can at times be confusing or contradictory.

If you have time, you might try to interpret a reading as you usually would, then try it using the transitional lines and gua, and see if this adds anything to your understand of your original reading. (And maybe set aside what doesn't work - at least for now).

Also, you might find this thread also gives you some insight.


Best, David.
 
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diamanda

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I use it a lot when I want extra information.
I only use it when two, or three lines are changing.

In your example, 50.2.5.6 > 31 (hidden lines 56.5 and 33.6):

50.2 shows a triangular relationship, 50.5 shows the female making a move, and 50.6 shows a beautiful female but without any children. Something new (50) has not gone well, and the female goes back to trying to attract another mate (31). The hidden lines show an opportunist or a one-night-stand (56.5) and 33.6 shows someone happy to retreat. I don't see any contradiction. If you don't understand a particular set of hidden lines, just leave it and look at the cast you got.
 

Trojina

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Hello everyone!

I was curious about the transitional hexagrams reading method. I searched it on this forum and found this archived thread:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/archive/index.php/t-24550.html

So I used the method for a reading I cast some days ago, but the description of changing lines of original hexagram & the hiding lines resulted from transitional hexagrams could be contradictory (For instance, the result was 50.2.5.6. Look at the description of 50.6 and 33.6).

What do you think of the transitional method? Do you use it? If yes, what it means to you compared to the interpretation of original hexagram's lines (the traditional method)? Which one is more important?

Well the most important thing is always going to be the hexagram and lines you actually cast. I wouldn't call that 'traditional' just well using the answer you received. I'd think using the transitional method is something to play with when you are already quite experienced where it is going to add to/complement your understanding of the answer you received rather than replace it.


I haven't tried to use the transitional method, I think like Freedda to me it looked somewhat overwhelming. I do get a little confused re 'steps of change' and 'transitional'. I do use/look at the line pathway (is that the same of steps of change ? don't know, don't think so) but never as a replacement for the reading but just to supplement or get more of a 'feel for' the interpretation of the cast I did actually get.


I think if you are a newbie then you are better off not trying to read lines you didn't get, that could be very confusing but if you find it useful well then why not.


My basic view is if line XYZ was so crucial to your reading then you would have cast it as your answer. So I don't think your actual cast answer can ever be replaced by any of these methods, I rather see these methods as supplementary and optional.
 

marybluesky

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Diamanda there is no contradiction in the way you interpreted the lines, but yours is totally different from the descriptions translated from Chinese (by Hilary and others) I refer to.
I cite Liu's interpretation of 50.6 & 33.6 from James DeKorne website:

50.6: The cauldron has carrying rings of jade. Great good fortune. Benefit in everything.
33.6: Retreat after success. Everything is favorable.

While both interpretations seem positive, the second invite us to retreat while the first implicitly suggests going on (Benefit in every thing).
 
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Freedda

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Trojina: ... the most important thing is always going to be the hexagram and lines you actually cast .... using the transitional method is something to play with when you are already experienced, where it is going to add to/complement your understanding of the answer you received rather than replace it.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the info. from transitional hexagrams (or whatever you're calling it) is meant to be 'in addition to' whatever your reading is, and if it's not useful, don't sweat it.

I do get a little confused re 'steps of change' and 'transitional'
Yes. My take on it is that 'transitional hexagrams' is a method described by Bradford Hatcher in his I Ching vol. 1, page 44. It seems similar but slightly different than the 'Line Pathways' described by Hilary (if you are a Change Circle member, there is a thread about it in the treasure chest section on this site). I'm assuming that the 'steps of change' are similar or the same as the latter. In my post above, there is a link at the end to another thread where I try to give examples of each.
 
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diamanda

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Diamanda there is no contradiction in the way you interpreted the lines, but yours is totally different from the descriptions translated from Chinese (by Hilary and others) I refer to.
I cite Liu's interpretation of 50.6 & 33.6 from James DeKorne website:
50.6: The cauldron has carrying rings of jade. Great good fortune. Benefit in everything.
33.6: Retreat after success. Everything is favorable.
While both interpretations seem positive, the second invite us to retreat while the first implicitly suggests going on (Benefit in every thing).

Yes I totally know what you mean. If we just read the translation of those 6th lines, it sounds great. But is it? Keep in mind that the 6th line, of any hexagram, shows that the situation is now far removed from what this hexagram actually means. 50 means gestation. Literally or figuratively. Line 6 is far removed. So, no gestation. However, the 'cauldron' is of superb quality. The fact that no gestation happened here is not the fault of the 'cauldron'. Hence there is great good fortune and benefit. Look also at 33.6. Hexagram 33 is about escaping. The first five lines describe trying to escape. Line 33.6 is far removed from the idea of trying to escape, as the person (or more precisely the pig) has now succeeded in escaping.

So you can't just read a line vaguely and say "oh it says good fortune, super!". You need to take lots of subtle elements into account. Experience is also very handy. It's normal for someone who's just starting with the I Ching to read all those beautiful poetic words and say "oh wow", but give it a few years of practice and then you'll know what I mean.

As about 50.6 advising "going on", no it doesn't say that. There is no movement mentioned in this line. It describes the jade rings (or, in other translations the jade lifting bar) of the cauldron. Read also Hilary's blog about 50.6, where she observes that jade as a material is actually quite brittle and thus not really practical for carrying around.
 

mmvvdd80

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50 means gestation. Literally or figuratively. Line 6 is far removed. So, no gestation. However, the 'cauldron' is of superb quality. The fact that no gestation happened here is not the fault of the 'cauldron'. Hence there is great good fortune and benefit. Look also at 33.6. Hexagram 33 is about escaping. The first five lines describe trying to escape. Line 33.6 is far removed from the idea of trying to escape, as the person (or more precisely the pig) has now succeeded in escaping.

Why, if hex 50 (Cauldron) is about gestation, it's line 6 activated means "no gestation", suggesting that the mission of the hexagram is failed.
But with hex 33 (Escape), if it's line 6 is activated, you write it's succeeded in escaping, implying that the mission of the hexagram is accomplished.

It reads contradictionary to me though I might be unaware of some lines' dynamic within a hexagram.
 
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Freedda

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Why, if hex 50 (Cauldron) is about gestation, it's line 6 activated means "no gestation", suggesting that the mission of the hexagram is failed.
But with hex 33 (Escape), if it's line 6 is activated, you write it's succeeded in escaping, implying that the mission of the hexagram is accomplished .... It reads contradictionary to me
....
First, if you haven't done so already, I'd suggest taking a look at the sticky thread at the top of this subforum about Positive and Negative Hexagrams: https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?8682-Positive-and-Negative-Hexagrams

Overall, you are mixing a number of methods and supplemental ways of looking at an Yi Jing reading, but some of these are a bit complicated, and by mixing them I fear you're ending with a jumbled mess.

Second, I have no idea where you or anyone got "no gestation" out of Line 50.6, or turned it into something negative. :duh:

Hilary's take on it is:

The vessel has a jade handle
Great good fortune
Nothing that does not bear fruit.
(or Hatcher: nothing cannot be turn to advantage).​

So ... what is negatve here? It seems very promising to me. And I have never heard of this line or this Gua being about 'gestation' unless perhaps it's about "the development of something over a period of time" (as related to alchemy) or someone is interpreting the sacred vessel as a womb - which I could see, but still nothing negative here.

Third, why are you comparing these two lines - 50.6 and 33.6? If you are using the 'transitional hexagram' method, the connection is between 50.2 and 33.6, but it is part of a longer 'path' with each step only meant to inform the reading. In this case, it looks like this:
50 > 50.2 > 56
> 56.2
>56.5 > 33
> 33.5
> 33.6 (and then to 31, the related hex.)

Remember, while there might be some connections between lines in the same places (e.g. 3.6, and 14.6, and 56.6 and so on), each is carrying its own meaning and goes with its main hexagram. Think of it as having two sets of 6 eggs each: one group of six are sea turtle eggs; the other group are crow's eggs. When they hatch out, I don't believe your first thought is, "gee, why are the babies coming out of the two different groups so different?" Beacuse the answer is obvious: different eggs; different species. Same with the lines.

Again, look to see if any of the steps are providing any pointers, useful information, etc. to understanding the reading (the primary hexagram, it's lines and the related hexagram); if not, don't worry about it. Remember, none of these other steps are part of the original reading.

Fourth, there is no overarching feel or meanings for the line placements: i.e line six is always going to be good, or line three is always going to be vague ... There might be some tendencies, but no firm rules. Each line stands on it own, in relation to its hexagram, and in relation to what was asked. If anything, sometimes lines within one hexagram, or in one cast, can show a progression of thought or of the situation, but that is open to interpretation, without fixed rules.

Finally, it is only one type of interpretation that assigns times or timing (past, present, future, or beginning, middle, end) to the lines - it is not a universally held idea. You can just as correctly think of all the lines as signs, warnings, and challenges related to your overall reading. This is my way of approaching them.

Beside that, even if you did apply a 'sense of time' to a line, you could correctly make line 5 or 6 the present (as in, the way it is up until now), not necessarily some future or final outcome of the cast.

Regards, David.
 
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mmvvdd80

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Hi, Freedda, thanks for your explanations.

First, if you haven't done so already, I'd suggest taking a look at the sticky thread at the top of this subforum about Positive and Negative Hexagrams: https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...tive-Hexagrams

Been there, of course. I didn't mean some hexagrams are good or bad, I only asked diamanda about the principle she uses to see the role of 6th lines. From reading about hexagram structures (e.g. from here: http://iching123.com) I've made a conclusion each hexagram (as a stage of changes) describes a situation and the best ways of handling it (those in accord with the law of nature). Like hexagram has a mission, a message, and "at line 6 changing, the message of the Hexagram becomes exhausted". Maybe I'm wrong. But my post wasn't about ways of reading, it was about to understand how diamanda gets her conclusions (like Cauldron being about digestion, not in a literal sense, and about 6the line indicating that the mission of Cauldron, e.g. digestion, wasn't accomplished - no digestion). Just wanted to get her point. Nothing about 50.6 being negative. As well as being timeline-related.

Diamanda writes "the 6th line, of any hexagram, shows that the situation is now far removed from what this hexagram actually means". So I only compared two cases of her line of thought: 50.6 - mission not accomplished (no gestation), 33.6 - mission accomplished (success in escape), and wondered what's the difference, why different conclusions.

I'm just gathering information and not digging into my own readings too deep. E.g. I feel it's too early for me to use "transitional hexagrams" (as well as line pathways), but I'm curious. Maybe my question is irrelevant to the thread's topic, and for that I apologize.
 
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Freedda

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Hi, Freedda, thanks for your explanations.

Diamanda writes "the 6th line, of any hexagram, shows that the situation is now far removed from what this hexagram actually means"....

I'm just gathering information and not digging into my own readings too deep. E.g. I feel it's too early for me to use "transitional hexagrams" (as well as line pathways), but I'm curious.
Thanks mmvvdd80.

I was providing info, maybe more than your question was about, but I hope maybe useful info anyway.

As to the line interpretation Diamanda mentions above, I guess my main thrust is there are many approaches; and without saying good or bad, this approach (re: role of 6th line, etc.) is one I just do not agree with. But you can gather info, try out methods, and certainly decide what works for you.

The transitional hexagrams (or whatever names people use) are worth taking a look at -- at some point. What I was trying to point out above is that the transitional hexagram method is meant to be 'advisory' or 'supplemental' to the reading, and that it is a bit complicated - and maybe good to come back to when you feel up to it. The 'line pathways' are a bit different and a bit less complicated (where you follow each line and look at it's 'change to' hexagram and line, and then separately look at the related hexagram).

Best, David.
 
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diamanda

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Why, if hex 50 (Cauldron) is about gestation, it's line 6 activated means "no gestation", suggesting that the mission of the hexagram is failed.
But with hex 33 (Escape), if it's line 6 is activated, you write it's succeeded in escaping, implying that the mission of the hexagram is accomplished.
It reads contradictionary to me though I might be unaware of some lines' dynamic within a hexagram.

I'll rephrase it then, and pop in a few more examples.
If we have 50.6 > 32, there's no action in cooking something, the situation is past that. Or... maybe birth has already happened.
If we have 33.6 > 31, there's no action in escaping, the situation is past that. We managed to escape.
If we have 7.6 > 4, the war is over.
If we have 3.6 > 42, the baby is aborted.
If we have 42.6 > 3, the person who could enrich others does not do that.
If we have 64.6 > 40 we have already crossed.
If we have 31.6 > 33 there's no real influence, it's all just talk.

I hope that what I wrote before makes more sense now.
 

mmvvdd80

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I'll rephrase it then, and pop in a few more examples.
If we have 50.6 > 32, there's no action in cooking something, the situation is past that. Or... maybe birth has already happened.
If we have 33.6 > 31, there's no action in escaping, the situation is past that. We managed to escape.
If we have 7.6 > 4, the war is over.
If we have 3.6 > 42, the baby is aborted.
If we have 42.6 > 3, the person who could enrich others does not do that.
If we have 64.6 > 40 we have already crossed.
If we have 31.6 > 33 there's no real influence, it's all just talk.

I hope that what I wrote before makes more sense now.

Thanks for the examples. I now understand it's not your interpretation, it's in the lines, but it's still beyond me why in 33.6 we managed and in 3.6 we didn't. Maybe it comes from how yin/yang lines correlate in a hexagram. Some tend to have a response and move up, some oppress others. Will have to just read lines in the near future :)

Btw, 40.6 then means liberation isn't achieved yet... With 64 as relating, saying "not yet across".
 
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mmvvdd80

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The transitional hexagrams (or whatever names people use) are worth taking a look at -- at some point. What I was trying to point out above is that the transitional hexagram method is meant to be 'advisory' or 'supplemental' to the reading, and that it is a bit complicated - and maybe good to come back to when you feel up to it. The 'line pathways' are a bit different and a bit less complicated (where you follow each line and look at it's 'change to' hexagram and line, and then separately look at the related hexagram).

Yeah, I see. Let it be my next step after the general meaning of all hexagrams becomes clear to me. I'm learning to merge meanings of 2 hexagrams (main and the secondary) into one message. Previously I was only able to connect them in one way: the first one causes the second one to happen. It's hard to break the cliche.
Expanding the reading by taking other nuances into consideration requires some basic knowledge and the skill to synthesize one message from several quite different ones.
 
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Freedda

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Thanks for the examples. I now understand it's not your interpretation, it's in the lines ...
I don't understand where you're going with this. You say you're looking at the lines and then look to this: "If we have 3.6 > 42, the baby is aborted."

But in all the translations of line 3.6 that I've read, I don't see any that talk about a baby being aborted? Looking at some examples of Line 3.6:

  • Wilhelm/Baynes: Horse and wagon part. Bloody tears flow.
  • Blofeld: He hesitates like a man trotting to and fro or like one shedding blood and tears.
  • Liu: He goes back and forth on horseback. He sheds tears with blood!

So it seems you're not looking at the line, but instead at someone else' interpretation or understanding of the line - is that it?

Getting back to basics (and setting aside the transitional lines for a bit), I'd start with: what does line 3.6 mean to you? How is it related to the hex. 3? What are your feelings about it? What images does it conjure up? What is it about for you?

Do you see an aborted baby here? If so, that's fine, (that's not my take on it), but try to look at it through your own eyes. Commentaries about the hexagrams, lines and trigrams can be helpful, but I always look at a few different ones, and then try to see if what they're saying clicks for me, or opens me up to other ways of seeing.


... merge meanings of 2 hexagrams (main and the secondary) into one message. Previously I was only able to connect them in one way: the first one causes the second one to happen.
Some other ways of looking at the primary and related hexagrams: the primary may be describing the situation your asking about, and the related might be either: how you feel about it or how you see it, or advice on how you might approach the situation described by the Primary. It can also be a general supplement to the Primary: is there anything here that helps me understand my situation?

There are a number of learning resources on this website, both free and those you pay for. I think the primary/related hexagram relationship is cover there.

One final suggestion: it is all well and good trying to 'study' the I Ching on its own, but you might try approaching it by queries or asking questions - maybe ask a question a week, then explore what the Yi is telling you.

I say this because to study it without a query or question is to look at it in a bit of a vacuum. The questions always stretch my thinking at bit: hmmm, how does 64.6 > 40 apply to my cleaning up my house? Or, what is 64.6 > 40 telling me about my trouble at work? The answers are then not so generic, and you start to make sense of them within the framework of what's being asked.

Best, David
 

Trojina

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I agree with what Fredda said - and also


It is crucial that you understand how individuals vary hugely with Yi. For example you said


So I only compared two cases of her line of thought: 50.6 - mission not accomplished (no gestation)
,


Now never in a million years would I say that 50.6 is 'mission not accomplished. Lets look at the line

'The vessel has a jade handle
Great good fortune,
Nothing that does not bear fruit.'

(Hilary's translation)

Now where does the idea of mission not accomplished come from there ?

It says there is great good fortune and that there is nothing that does not bear fruit. There is nothing about a mission not being accomplished..

I think the original idea (about mission not accomplished) was possibly to do with 50 as cooking/gestation and so by the end of 50 there was no child - or something like that on an SR thread.

I don't agree with that at all. I agree you can look at line 6s and see how it's the very end of the hexagram but you are still in that hexagram, but you can't go from that to saying because it's near the end of 50 the mission is not accomplished, if you do you are completely disregarding what the line actually says.

Others might agree with that way of thinking but what I'm saying is you need to have a place to stand whereby you are strong enough in the basics to be able to evaluate approaches for yourself and to do that then as David said there is a free beginners course and also the Foundations Course available.

There was a fantastic thread on line 6s I will see if I can find it. It was called 'high point or end game' I think and was started by Dobro. He was looking at each line 6 to see if it was a high point or an end game.
 

Trojina

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BTW there was a cast I recall well where a woman asked whether to terminate her pregnancy or not and got 3.6 for both keeping the pregnancy and for terminating. That is for both the question of keeping the baby and for termination she got 3.6. She then had a miscarriage so clearly that was going to happen regardless of her decision which is why Yi gave her 3.6 twice. I always felt that such a stark answer.

But obviously we can't think of that each time we cast 3.6, it does depend on the question. I had it for an evening out once and the evening wasn't aborted just a bit of a non event I guess. And of course some people interpret 3.6 as advise not to give up so how do you interpret it for yourself ? Wilhelm for example writes of resignation being the problem in this line. So who are you going to believe ? You can't 100% believe anyone, I think you have to take the line as it is and feel your way into it to discover your own sense of it.


A good way I have found is asking of what the day holds, or smaller questions and then the answers really often come to the fore in very tangible ways which lets you get a sense of the hexagram or line a bit more.
 

moss elk

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A good way I have found is asking of what the day holds, or smaller questions and then the answers really often come to the fore in very tangible ways which lets you get a sense of the hexagram or line a bit more.

Yes, these 'open' for the day readings are very helpful to me for learning as well.
(you bypass any thoughts or emotional investment in specific things, and just live the day and then the reading becomes clear.)
 

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