Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
…because, as I was saying in my previous post about not being special, this isn’t about who I am, it’s about what the universe is.
@hilary; I just left a comment on the not being special blog expressing some concern about a lack of discrimination that might occur when people begin engaging intently with looking for actual spiritual direction in signs and omens. I related there the macabre dead rabbit 'message' where I realized yes this person might be engaging with unseen energies she saw as spirit guides but if we take such unseen energies as real, which I do, then you'd have to wonder what kind of energy it was that chose dead rabbits arranged in a pattern. More the stuff of horror movies than indication of a kind and all loving universe. That's the problem with the word 'universe' in these things though I use it myself I know it's not adequate.
If 'the universe' is 'everything' we know there's much of it that is not loving and good and kind at all. One only has to look around to see that.
Oh, I completely agree. I just wanted to stick some pins in the idea that you need to be an especially 'spiritual person' (whatever that is) or have exceptional gifts before you can even start working with Yi. People need to get past that idea so they can develop and trust in their own relationship with Yi - in the course of which they will probably find out soonish about its nature.In this blog you are saying anyone can just use Yi because Oracles work and I think that is true but I also think Oracles and signs are not just anonymous machines to be used, not fork life trucks, they have a purpose, an intent.
I can't exactly describe it but I think we do sense Yi as a loving oracle, an Oracle that promotes the Good, who's purpose when written was to guide us towards goodness not just to find our keys or what he is thinking although it will do that because of it's boundless generosity.
I've an idea that a lot of the time this will look after itself. It did for me - in my first readings, I imagined I was playing round with a random-answer-generating tool to prompt creative thinking. Then it turned out to be talking to me. From what I've heard, a lot of people have that kind of moment of realisation.I also think it's important to realize that when you start consulting Yi you won't have it all your own way because you are actually meeting an Oracle not an object. You don't need to be psychic but you probably do need to activate parts of your mind that haven't been used so much and you will be engaging with a spiritual reality.
My sense is clearly that we live in a benevolent universe - that there's an underlying reality that wishes us well.
I agree about the need to be discriminating on signs and omens, though, yes. Not so much the nature of the sign, as the nature of the interpretation put on it and what people actually do in response. Neatly arranged dead rabbits could be a sign from a benevolent intelligence that's worth following... after all, rabbits, like the rest of us, die. It depends on what message is received. Omen of personal transformation and the death of the old self? Fair enough, could be. Omen that it's time to abandon your two small children? Not so much.
People can interpret signs in an evil way. Does that mean the signs came from something malevolent? I'm not wholly convinced.
(Personally, I would look at the dead rabbits as a sign about foxes or cats hunting in the area. But that's just me. I'm wryly amused by the people who take feathers as signs from angels and hence take lots of feathers as a sign of lots of angels, and not for instance a 'sign' that the fox got a pheasant.)
Oh, I completely agree. I just wanted to stick some pins in the idea that you need to be an especially 'spiritual person' (whatever that is) or have exceptional gifts before you can even start working with Yi. People need to get past that idea so they can develop and trust in their own relationship with Yi - in the course of which they will probably find out soonish about its nature.
I don't quite agree here. I think if I genuinely need to find my keys, then the benevolent cosmos wants me to find my keys, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking it to help. Yes, it is a trivial concern, but if I think about the scale of the thing for 5 seconds then all my concerns are insanely trivial. The oracle still works.
I've an idea that a lot of the time this will look after itself. It did for me - in my first readings, I imagined I was playing round with a random-answer-generating tool to prompt creative thinking. Then it turned out to be talking to me. From what I've heard, a lot of people have that kind of moment of realisation.
I wonder if the categories 'good' and 'bad' exist for the universe at all or if they are not just socially constructed.
Your discussion is very interesting @hilary and @Trojina. The theodicy question and similar questions are the ones that moves me the most, I think. I wonder if the categories 'good' and 'bad' exist for the universe at all or if they are not just socially constructed.
The idea that the universe is actually benevolent and that even the bad things make sense in order to serve our personal growth is more hopeful of course. I also try to live on the basis of this idea.
No I don't think they are socially constructed I think there is a battle between good and evil
A sentinment that comes up numerous times from them is that good and evil are human creations.
And that, in a pure logic vaccuum,
seems perfectly reasonable.
And the idea allows them to rationalize murders.
It can be a terribly western and self indulgent mind set for us though don't you think ? You know did the holocaust happen to serve personal growth to take it to an extreme ? Is marine life screwed up because of plastic usage all going to be in the end good for our personal growth ? Meantime real life suffering happens as you know where there isn't the space to intellectualize it.
I wonder if the categories 'good' and 'bad' exist for the universe at all or if they are not just socially constructed.
And if you, Trojina and Moss Elk, read my words thouroughly then you would have seen that I wrote:
I wonder if the categories 'good' and 'bad' exist for the universe at all or if they are not just socially constructed.
I never said these are meaningless categories. What I wanted to say here is that that the universe maybe doesn't care about good ore evil like we humans do.
I know that may be in contradiction with the 'benevolent universe' idea, but as I said, I still have no clue about it all. Will never have most probably. I'm just experimenting with thoughts here.
What I wanted to say here is that that the universe maybe doesn't care about good ore evil like we humans do.
I know that may be in contradiction with the 'benevolent universe' idea,
equinox
Btw Trojina, okay, I agree with you that the idea of personal growth may appear self-indulgent and new agey here. In written communication one should be very careful with the choice of words. My mistake was that I brought the vocabulary "personal" into play -- which is actually a very modern concept in this context. Otherwise the idea that the soul (if one believes in a soul) grows through suffering, but not only through suffering of course, is a millennia-old idea.
It can be a terribly western and self indulgent mind set for us though don't you think ?
I don't actually think BTW either you or Hilary think of this in any kind of self indulgent way, I know you don't, I'm just speaking broadly about where patterns of thinking might lead us.id say quite clearly
I would never be so arrogant and cynical to explain to anyone the holocaust, the loss of their child or their cancer with the argument of 'personal growth'.
Hi, Hilary:This has all got way too theological for me, too. I think I should do some admin work for a change...
Everything can be used for good or bad purposes, and even with good intentions, some actions can turn at the service of evil.
Source: cover of «Tease Monster» (A Book about Teasing vs. Bullying)
Link: https://www.teachingbooks.net/tb.cgi?tid=58679
In the first World Scientific Publishing edition of «I Ching the Oracle» there was an Introduction w ith the last paragraph On Divination.
In this connection, I think of something Stephen Karcher told me once, that he had seen Yi responding to people asking to do something malign, and quietly guiding them to their downfall. He meant on an individual level, but come to think of it, the fate of the Japanese military in WWII would be quite a good example. (Under their post-war constitution, they can only have a defensive force, which wasn't even allowed to deploy outside their borders until 20 years ago.)In the 2nd.WW, Japanese military consulted the Changes, feeling themselves justified in aggressive expansionist policies and all kinds of crimes.
Do you mean that they achieve better results not following the I Ching advice?I always thinked that the Changes should not give a false guidance purposely but that those people who ask with bad intentions could go by themselves to end badly. But that doesn't always happen, often the contrary. Nobody is perfect neither destiny nor the Changes.
Interesting point. I'm pretty new to the I Ching, and eager to learn how I should apply it to my outer life. I really love and appreciate the I Ching, the wisdom behind it and how magically it sometimes matches the real world situations. But what connection it has to the life? How much trust should I put in it, and in what way? Is it mostly about emotions/the inner life? Could it predict/help us with tangible things?I believe that always the consultant must be responsible for the use of the oracle.
Hi, Mary:Do you mean that they achieve better results not following the I Ching advice?
The I Ching is a form of divination (divination means "The practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.", Oxford dictionary). It can be about inner life, or outer factors, or luck, etc etc etc. Yes it can predict tangible things, this is one of its most fundamental functions. How much trust you should put in it - well, the same amount of trust you put in divination as a whole. If you don't really know if you believe in divination, then give it a go to keep an archive of readings and their results. See how the predictions and results match up. Then you'll have some facts to base your decision on.But what connection it has to the life? How much trust should I put in it, and in what way? Is it mostly about emotions/the inner life? Could it predict/help us with tangible things?
I want to know.
We, diviners or querents, are always responsible for the use we make of the tool, for how we decode the messages, for the voices we decide to listen and for those we decide to ignore.
If diviner and querent are different persons, each has each has his own responsibility. But diviners are but a little new drop lost somewhere in the multitude of streams, a little grain of sand in the succession of times.
The querent charges with the responsibility of being the last subject in the chain of decisions, who will be under risks an who will pay for the consequences of his behavior. We must grant him the right to reject the answer of the diviner, however good it may be, if it doesn't fit him like a tailored suit.
The Changes always makes its work, developping and increasing. The fortune-teller does his job as he knows or can. If the querent gets no true insight the consult has failed. The querent must be warned of his share of responsibility for trusting or not trusting the messages or advices he believe to receive.
It leaves me puzzled. If the I Ching predicts the future accurately, how it comes that we affect it in good and evil ways?it can be used with kindness or with evil. As any collective, cumulative work carries all sorts of messages, often even contradictory, that reach us trough many apparent and hidden streams.
So we may interpret a reading positively then it turns out bad. While visiting older pages of this forum, I came across some very promising readings that, however, didn't end in the desired result.We, diviners or querents, are always responsible for the use we make of the tool, for how we decode the messages, for the voices we decide to listen and for those we decide to ignore.
So everything is uncertain, isn't it?The querent charges with the responsibility of being the last subject in the chain of decisions, who will be under risks an who will pay for the consequences of his behavior.
This means that the interpretation was wrong.So we may interpret a reading positively then it turns out bad.
This means that the reading was not auspicious after all and the interpretation was wrong.When I ask "will I come together with X" I am talking about my desire to be with this person. If I get an auspicious reading but X finds another girl tomorrow, I suspect the divination.
It leaves me puzzled. If the I Ching predicts the future accurately, how it comes that we affect it in good and evil ways?
Yes, of course you do. Anybody would, especially when our prevailing culture persistently tells us that divination is a nonsense, an impossibility, and we're just deluding ourselves. Suspecting the divination is the natural, default reaction.So we may interpret a reading positively then it turns out bad. While visiting older pages of this forum, I came across some very promising readings that, however, didn't end in the desired result.
One may say that the "good fortune" referred to the less tangible aspects of life such as spirituality and personal growth, and indicated a positive outcome in the long run despite the momentary loss. OK, but doesn't it decrease the I Ching's reliability in the terms of divination?
When I ask "will I come together with X" I am talking about my desire to be with this person. If I get an auspicious reading but X finds another girl tomorrow, I suspect the divination.
Agreed. (Or, sometimes, that the connection with Yi was damaged by repeated questioning, such that by the time the auspicious reading showed up, Yi was no longer answering the original question.)This means that the interpretation was wrong.
diamanda said:If you suspect divination of being wrong as a whole, and you do not suspect that it was its interpretation that was wrong, then maybe divination is not your kind of thing after all. You can very well muse on the issue, and remain in full uncertainty about everything, without casting.
Hi, Mary:...
When I ask "will I come together with X" I am talking about my desire to be with this person. If I get an auspicious reading but X finds another girl tomorrow, I suspect the divination.
It leaves me puzzled. If the I Ching predicts the future accurately, how it comes that we affect it in good and evil ways?
So we may interpret a reading positively then it turns out bad.
While visiting older pages of this forum, I came across some very promising readings that, however, didn't end in the desired result.
One may say that the "good fortune" referred to the less tangible aspects of life such as spirituality and personal growth, and indicated a positive outcome in the long run despite the momentary loss. OK, but doesn't it decrease the I Ching's reliability in the terms of divination?
When I ask "will I come together with X" I am talking about my desire to be with this person. If I get an auspicious reading but X finds another girl tomorrow, I suspect the divination.
So everything is uncertain, isn't it?
We don't affect it in good and evil ways so not sure what you mean ?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).