Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I've been wondering how popular is the approach
Well, what about casting a coin to ask if it is ok to cast the two coins?
And then there is the casting of four coins to see if it is ok to cast a single coin.
And don't forget about the coin toss leading up to that one!
(it should be done with half of a coin)
(can you see the absurdity of it now?)
And maybe a more straightforward appoach is to simply sit quitely for a few moments and then ask "is this a good time for me to do a reading? am I clear enough and open enough to hear what is being said?"
I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.
You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).
Some sources state it's ok to meditate a bit more on this question and repeat 2 coins cast. If the coins are the same sides up again, then you shouldn't go on. When asking several questions (to get details about previous reading), you ask if you should proceed after every question.
Still I'm not sure how a refusal should be treated: as the end of the entire consultation or just as an offer to ask another question.
But since you're supposed to meditate over every question for a while you cannot just ask another question instead of the rejected one right away.
I couldn't find any threads regarding this aspect. Maybe it's because I don't know how to name it properly.
Maybe "verification of appropriateness of moment, state of mind and form of question" is the better definition. Or "an invitation". A sign I'm in accord with the moment and myself. Which I rarely am.
Absolutely! I even read somewhere that one should meditate before casting. And that sometimes an answer comes by itself. No need in divination. I wish!
I must admit as a beginner I suffered "question after question" attacks, especially when relationships and hard feelings were involved. I logged them all, it was a messy stuff. By asking an invitation I, first, really restricted my passion to do "repeated casts without enough focus to interpret", as marybluesky puts it, and second, I applied it as a mechanism of analyzing my questions.
It's amazing, using this method I was never denied of a session when in throes of grief or keen need.
I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited:
- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer
As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.
- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer
Yep, I think I get that.It's not about "am I allowed to ask", not about someone denying me in my desire to have a divination session.
I'd like to know more about what you mean here? Are you referring to the trigrams, to the imagery? Or ....:The book's texts after all are only one way to interpret the answer.
... hmm ... I don't understand ...? If not to the Yi Jing, then to what or whom? The Easter Bunny? The Magic 8 Ball?It's definitely not the book I address my question to.
Yes, that makes sense to me too. I'd only say, you can't always (and maybe should not always) wait until the "perfect" time or mindset to pose your question or toss the coins. If we did that some of us might never consult the Yi!... so I like to think of a session as a conversation.
Yes, but again, we should not wait for perfection, or the perfect time, or perfect mindset.Maybe "verification of appropriateness of moment, state of mind and form ... Or "an invitation". A sign I'm in accord with the moment and myself. Which I rarely am.
... well then, if it keeps you from asking dozens of questions in a row (and not looking at all at the answers), then it's worth the price of admission right there.By asking an invitation I, first, really restricted my passion to do "repeated casts without enough focus to interpret" ...
... oh, again, maybe it's just fine to ask no matter what. I once thought that if I was to calm myself and focus on the question, without internal chatter, that I'd get a response with much fewer moving lines. But it seems like how many moving lines I got had nothing to do with how focused I was.I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited: - not enough focus -
something wrong with the question - you're obssessed about the situation - the time to ask is not right - you're not ready to accept the answer
Welcome to the monkey house!A couple of times I was caught lying to myself.
I'd say, don't go there. An 'expirenced person' might know the Yi better, or have more experience under their belts at doing readings, but I would not put them on too high a pedestal about their 'harmony.' That's just asking for trouble. And sounds pretty darn elitist too.As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.
I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited:
- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer
A sign ? From where ? Where do you think you are getting a sign from ?
I'd love to know WHO's permission you are asking ? Is Yi sort of sitting there with legs crossed watching the 2 coin throw saying 'hmmm not sure maybe she can cast today' ?
... hmm ... I don't understand ...? If not to the Yi Jing, then to what or whom? The Easter Bunny? The Magic 8 Ball?
You do not need any of these methods with their 'rules' of when it is okay to ask.
just someone's invention, it has no validity IMO
A form of weak man made superstition and ritual getting in the way of connecting with the oracle"
I'm thinking: what if 2,500 years ago, a soverign consulted the Yi about his enemy's troops massed at the city walls? Would he necessarily have to wait until a clear, calm moment to do his consultation? I really don't think so.
Who made out that we can't go straight to Yi and have to cast some coins to see if we have permission as a sign ?
a basic disconnect with the very nature of Yi
a real connection
You don't need to meditate before casting and you certainly don't need to ask 'permission'.
-- But since you're supposed to meditate over every question for a while you cannot just ask another question instead of the rejected one right away.
-- Well you have posted quite a lot of questions in SR
- something wrong with the question wording
Yi can respond to your question even if you ask with your feelings - even with no words - it can answer. It's hardly going to say 'oh no you're not invited as your sentence structure was poor'
If I over ask I tend to get 52. That is often Yi telling me to go away.
We often ask about things that don't exist yet.
I mean if one isn't ready to accept an answer that attitude will probably be evident in the answer. For example 21.6 or 4.4 or43.4
Yes, that makes sense to me too. I'd only say, you can't always (and maybe should not always) wait until the "perfect" time or mindset to pose your question or toss the coins. If we did that some of us might never consult the Yi!
I'd say, don't go there. An 'expirenced person' might know the Yi better, or have more experience under their belts at doing readings, but I would not put them on too high a pedestal about their 'harmony.' That's just asking for trouble. And sounds pretty darn elitist too.
However in forums where we use Liu Yao and other of the systems that are used professionally in Asia, none of this is needed. Members usually make Hexagram from websites like this one:
http://www.zhycw.com/pp/liuyao.aspx
(just click the orange button while thinking about the question to make then we can copy/paste)
And most of the time readings can be very accurate even though there was no meditation at all from the person asking.
Rituals help, really
Hi,
I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.
You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).
.As for not being good enough to talk to oracle, it's not about someone's goodness. Some moods allow to feel an outer Cosmos, to feel myself in it, to feel that irrational quietness of mind, some don't. Sometimes I wouldn't even take a risk to call my mom
Or cannot say whether I want to die or a chocolate bar. I feel I do need to meditate. It feels right, gives relief. Maybe I lack imagination. I asked Yi once what to do to repair my relashionship with my ex. I was just out of a hospital, all frenzied and nuts. I saw hex 44 and almost took it as an instruction to go sleep with him immediately at any cost. Rituals help, really
You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission.
How can it be right or wrong? It's a feeling
From the looks of it, this is not a popular method with people in this particular forum. I've never heard of this before myself. Saying that, if it's a long-standing Chinese tradition, there must be something in it. To me it sounds similar to a day when we want to consult astrology only to 'see' that (for example) Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct and retrograde in out 3rd house, plus the moon is void of course. Which would mean something like 'no matter what you ask or think right now, in a few hours or days it won't matter'.I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.
You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).
Some sources state it's ok to meditate a bit more on this question and repeat 2 coins cast. If the coins are the same sides up again, then you shouldn't go on. When asking several questions (to get details about previous reading), you ask if you should proceed after every question.(...)
I'll totally disagree with this though. Wrong timing and confusing times can happen to absolutely everyone. No matter how much harmony one has with themselves, there are invisible forces which could be adverse.As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.
The truth lies in between. Divination is neither all destiny, neither all personal decision. Divination provides the wisdom to know when we can affect the outcome, or not.it bugs me that it implies (as astrology in general does) that all your life's events and deeds are predefined. It's a contrast with how I was introduced to I Ching divination as a practice where outcome of your decisions is on you and it changes if you act differently.
Dear Diamanda:From the looks of it, this is not a popular method with people in this particular forum. I've never heard of this before myself. Saying that, if it's a long-standing Chinese tradition, there must be something in it.
...
Wrong timing and confusing times can happen to absolutely everyone. No matter how much harmony one has ...
I did not know Maser Jou but I have the prejudice that he, as good taoist, was a man of action no less than a man of meditation. Even more, I also imagine that he was fond of wine, women and gambling. I don't know why!
Mmvvdd80's original question was pretty simple: are people here familiar with the method where you ask "permission" before doing a reading. I believe most of us don't use this method and don't feel we need to. That's about it for me.... I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say .... I cannot be objective with Jou Tsung Hwa.
Again, I think that many of us don't think some sort of inner calm or meditative state is needed to get good info from the Yi. - Refer to Harmen Mesker's 'Video 3: how (not) to consult the Yijing' in Exploring Divination..... Consulting the Changes ... requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation ...
Hi, Moss:I can't tell if you are trying make me laugh or cry.
Grandmaster Jou, Tsung Hwa
July 13, 1917 – August 3, 1998
Source: Tai Chi Memorial Park http://taichipark.com/
I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say.
I am afraid that the late Master Jou could not defend himself if it were not for his writings.
For people interested in reading the book where the ritual in question is described, in Ferrero's «Labirinto Ermetico» can get the book in pdf format, easy readable, printable and searchable.
The link is here:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09iching/Tsung_Hwa_Jou_The_Tao_Of_I_Ching.pdf
The home page of the site:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/principale.htm
Not that I share the use of the described ritual, but I believe to understand some of the reasons that moved Master Jou to recommend it.
I also believe that dead people deserve respect, even more a Master like Jou was. Reading and trying to understand him is maybe a way to pay respect to his memory. And a way to improve our skills in reading the Changes.
I've said that I imagine how was Master Jou as a person. I believe he was, among other things, an artist.
Maybe this portrait of a young Jou inspired me about his personal qualities:
I think it is a fair use, I am sure that the master will not feel that it is a violation of his copyright but will enjoy seeing the interest in his work and in the defense of his ideas, even by people who may not share them.
I did not know Maser Jou but I have the prejudice that he, as good taoist, was a man of action no less than a man of meditation. Even more, I also imagine that he was fond of wine, women and gambling. I don't know why!
Maybe the ritual he proposed have an ancient and venerable tradition. It could also be that the Master himself initiated that tradition, although unnoticed for most people.
It requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation, which is not consistent, accurate and well developped rational speech.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).