Asking a permission to go on with your question and cast a hexagram.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 21, 2018

Hi,

I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.

You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).

Some sources state it's ok to meditate a bit more on this question and repeat 2 coins cast. If the coins are the same sides up again, then you shouldn't go on. When asking several questions (to get details about previous reading), you ask if you should proceed after every question.

I always use this approach. And log questions which were rejected. It gives some clues in what direction to focus my attention.

Still I'm not sure how a refusal should be treated: as the end of the entire consultation or just as an offer to ask another question.

But since you're supposed to meditate over every question for a while you cannot just ask another question instead of the rejected one right away.

I couldn't find any threads regarding this aspect. Maybe it's because I don't know how to name it properly.

Gmulii · Nov 21, 2018

Up to you. However in forums where we use Liu Yao and other of the systems that are used professionally in Asia, none of this is needed. Members usually make Hexagram from websites like this one:
http://www.zhycw.com/pp/liuyao.aspx
(just click the orange button while thinking about the question to make then we can copy/paste)
And most of the time readings can be very accurate even though there was no meditation at all from the person asking.
Why they are making the Hexagram... Its connected to how lines are assigned in Liu Yao, its easier to read if the person involved in the situation asks by themselves(can go in details if someone wants to know).

So the system is more reliable then it may seem, it will show the changes, its up to the person reading to figure out if they can read it.

Using it personally and permission... Well, that may be more useful to the state you are in. If we aren't in calm enough state reading the answer may be difficult... A way around that would be making the Hexagram with plant stalks and not with coins or software. As it takes really long time you will get in more calmer state no matter if you want it or not.
Then if you still need the physical sense of the coins etc. and some more time to get in needed state - coins are faster and still reliable way.

In my humble opinion we don't need any of that by default. The system will always reflected changes in the situation we ask about, only question is how and if we can read what is presented.

Freedda · Nov 22, 2018

I have never heard of this. It doesn't seem necessary. But go for it if you want.

moss elk · Nov 22, 2018

mmvvdd80 said:
I've been wondering how popular is the approach

Well, what about casting a coin to ask if it is ok to cast the two coins?

And then there is the casting of four coins to see if it is ok to cast a single coin.

And don't forget about the coin toss leading up to that one!
(it should be done with half of a coin)

(can you see the absurdity of it now?)

mmvvdd80 · Nov 22, 2018

I haven't invented it myself. But it seemed totally ok, like asking a person if it's the right time for a conversation now.

Well, what about casting a coin to ask if it is ok to cast the two coins?

And then there is the casting of four coins to see if it is ok to cast a single coin.

And don't forget about the coin toss leading up to that one!
(it should be done with half of a coin)

(can you see the absurdity of it now?)

I see how it looks for you now

mmvvdd80 · Nov 22, 2018

There'are even special items made of bamboo to ask the permission. Not coins. A section of a bamboo stalk divided into halves. You cast them both and see if they fell the same side up. There's a Chinese term for them. It really is in tradition. I understand that no asking + coins is quicker than yarrow stalks and the approach itself doesn't matter at all as long as you're concentrated on the question and sencere. And that to get a hex via software is even more convinient, especially in a professional divination. Will post a photo.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 22, 2018

So the main source is this book "The Tao of I Ching: Way to Divination" by Tsung Hwa Jou (it was mentioned in a thread where alternative I Ching methods were discussed). There's a section 2.2 describing a traditional ritual of using I Ching, a ceremony, with a lot of items and all. I cannot paste hieroglyphs since I have the book in djvu format, but I've made a screenshots (should be in attachement). Other resources (some of them not in English) seem to describe the same thing.

And I'd like to emphasize that I'd just asked if someone practice this approach. I didn't tell it's the right one and everybody should use it. Also wanted to share some doubts regarding whether you're to quit the I Ching session when the permission denied or just ask another question.

There's #3 screenshot of a paragraph from books.google.com, I feel the same way. Asking a permission feels very authentic for me, it fits into the concept of timing the expression of your free will with the nature's flow. Some time it's ok to act, some time is for skipping.

marybluesky · Nov 22, 2018

I read about this method once in the Shared Readings forum. Haven't used it, but seems OK to me; at least it could prevent repeated casts without enough focus to interpret.

Freedda · Nov 22, 2018

Again, never heard of this; haven't used it.

I will only add that I do not believe the Yi Jing gives us "permission" or not to do a reading. It's a book, with hundreds of interpretations and millions of copies produced in many languages, and each copy is not imbibed with some magical power to read our thoughts.

It could be then that these alternative 'are you ready to handle the truth' methods have more to do with the reader, not with the Yi itself.

And maybe a more straightforward appoach is to simply sit quitely for a few moments and then ask "is this a good time for me to do a reading? am I clear enough and open enough to hear what is being said?"

This way we would certainly save on accumuating more crap, more things to get lost, where we then have to ask "where did I leave my bamboo thingees that let me know if it's okay to ask a question of the Yi, because without them I won't know if it's okay to ask this question about where I left the bamboo thingees that I need to ask the question ...."

mmvvdd80 · Nov 23, 2018

Maybe the word itself is wrong, English is not my language, obviously. It's not about "am I allowed to ask", not about someone denying me in my desire to have a divination session. It's not about free will.

I Ching is a book, sure, but I'm not casting items to get the book's page number. The book's texts after all are only one way to interpret the answer. It's definitely not the book I address my question to. It's nature, that causes coins to fall one side or the other (seen different version of who or what answers our questions). But it's intelligent, not a robot, not google, so I like to think of a session as of conversation. Maybe "verification of appropriateness of moment, state of mind and form of question" is the better definition. Or "an invitation". A sign I'm in accord with the moment and myself. Which I rarely am.

And maybe a more straightforward appoach is to simply sit quitely for a few moments and then ask "is this a good time for me to do a reading? am I clear enough and open enough to hear what is being said?"

Absolutely! I even read somewhere that one should meditate before casting. And that sometimes an answer comes by itself. No need in divination. I wish!

I must admit as a beginner I suffered "question after question" attacks, especially when relationships and hard feelings were involved. I logged them all, it was a messy stuff. By asking an invitation I, first, really restricted my passion to do "repeated casts without enough focus to interpret", as marybluesky puts it, and second, I applied it as a mechanism of analyzing my questions.

It's amazing, using this method I was never denied of a session when in throes of grief or keen need. There was sessions of many chained questions, each of them aimed to clarify some aspect of the previous one, and for each I got an invitation.
And there were some superficial attempts, when I only needed to spend time and struggled to produce some questions. I was getting denial after denial unless I gave up trying to cast a hex. Nothing to regret

I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited:

- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer

Sometimes it makes sense to meditate a bit more and repeat asking the question and invitation request.
Sometimes it gets immediately clear to me that the question or myself or the time is all wrong and I loose any desire to cast a hexagram.
A couple of times I was caught lying to myself.

As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.

Trojina · Nov 23, 2018

I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.

You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).

This is pitiful nonsense. I say 'pitiful' because it is a form of weak man made superstition and ritual getting in the way of connecting with the oracle.

Some sources state it's ok to meditate a bit more on this question and repeat 2 coins cast. If the coins are the same sides up again, then you shouldn't go on. When asking several questions (to get details about previous reading), you ask if you should proceed after every question.

You get your coins or your beads or your online generator or even your stalks and you cast the I Ching.

That's it.

You do not need any of these methods with their 'rules' of when it is okay to ask.

Still I'm not sure how a refusal should be treated: as the end of the entire consultation or just as an offer to ask another question.

Well someone made up 'refusal' with some 2 coin method and you decided to obey it. So as it has no reality, it's just someone's ideas, you do not need to worry about 'refusal'.

But since you're supposed to meditate over every question for a while you cannot just ask another question instead of the rejected one right away.

Well you have posted quite a lot of questions in SR

I couldn't find any threads regarding this aspect. Maybe it's because I don't know how to name it properly.

Well it's just someone's invention, it has no validity IMO. If you want to make distance between yourself and Yi use their 'method'.

You don't cite who invented these methods BTW.

Trojina · Nov 23, 2018

Maybe "verification of appropriateness of moment, state of mind and form of question" is the better definition. Or "an invitation". A sign I'm in accord with the moment and myself. Which I rarely am.

A sign ? From where ? Where do you think you are getting a sign from ? Someone says cast 2 coins to see if you are good enough to talk to the oracle ? I think it's an arrogant and absurd suggestion - as if you need an interview according to the 'rules' to talk to Yi. What I think is arrogant is someone deciding when you can or can't talk to Yi through their own rules.

You can go to the oracle direct all the time. To say one needs an invitation is as ridiculous as saying one needs an invitation to pray, to talk to God and you have to shake some coins to see if it's the right time to pray...well if you did that it would be of the utmost absurdity with spiritual connection being down graded to a rather weak and dark superstition

Absolutely! I even read somewhere that one should meditate before casting. And that sometimes an answer comes by itself. No need in divination. I wish!

You don't need to meditate before casting and you certainly don't need to ask 'permission'.

I must admit as a beginner I suffered "question after question" attacks, especially when relationships and hard feelings were involved. I logged them all, it was a messy stuff. By asking an invitation I, first, really restricted my passion to do "repeated casts without enough focus to interpret", as marybluesky puts it, and second, I applied it as a mechanism of analyzing my questions.

You do post a lot of questions yes and it isn't unusual for people to ask a lot of questions especially now there are online casting tools. But asking a lot of questions can be part of the process of getting to know Yi - just part of the journey, doesn't mean you have to apply some rule to ask for permission .

It's amazing, using this method I was never denied of a session when in throes of grief or keen need.

Here's how it is. There are times I think Yi 'refuses' simply by how it answers but Yi does that within the answer. No 2 coins permission necessary at all - not amazing at all since there is no denial except in the mind of the people who invented casting for permission

I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited:

- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer

Actually we don't need to be invited and Yi answers us where we are not in some state of perfection. I find the notion of being 'invited' ridiculous harmful nonsense. If Yi gives the question back to you which often happens, it isn't because you aren't 'invited'. Yi can answer you about your question behind the question or even your intentions whilst casting on a different topic - it can do all these different things without some spurious method of asking permission.

I'd love to know WHO's permission you are asking ? Is Yi sort of sitting there with legs crossed watching the 2 coin throw saying 'hmmm not sure maybe she can cast today' ?

This really is a most dreadful concept. It seems to me an invention of those who are trying to block connection with Yi through some kind of 'by invitation only system they invented.

As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.

No, you're wrong, all checks are unnecessary inventions. Of course one need not be 'in harmony with one's self' before getting invited to consult ! The whole point of consulting Yi is that you come as you are. If you were in perfect enlightened harmony you wouldn't need to consult would you.

Who made out that we can't go straight to Yi and have to cast some coins to see if we have permission as a sign ?

Trojina · Nov 23, 2018

All these can quite clearly be answered without any spurious so called 'invitation'

- not enough focus on the question

You'd still get an answer but may find it harder to interpret. 2 coin permission seeking of no worth.

- something wrong with the question wording

Yi can respond to your question even if you ask with your feelings - even with no words - it can answer. It's hardly going to say 'oh no you're not invited as your sentence structure was poor'

- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly

Well that's most of us most of the time then

Who knew we had to wait for permission ?

- the situation doesn't exist

We often ask about things that don't exist yet.

- the answer is obvious

Yes and sometimes Yi will give an obvious answer !

- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)

You can ask whenever you want. I think if you believe that you are getting 'permission' by using this 'method' you are labouring under a delusion. If you are asking too early then you will get an answer from Yi advising you that it's too early.

- you're not ready to accept the answer

That probably 50% of the time - what I mean is all of these are normal things for us that Yi answers with it's own intelligence. That is the point of it !

I mean if one isn't ready to accept an answer that attitude will probably be evident in the answer. For example 21.6 or 4.4 or43.4

Really all the things you list are things that Yi can address itself within the answer. No 2 coin permission needed.

I mean it's almost a degradation of Yi to make up a system whereby you box it in to your own rules of 'permission' or 'refusal'. Awful - don't do but learn to interpret for yourself, with all the complexity that involves instead rather than rely on some 'system' that actually totally denies the whole nature of Yi.

Also know you can go to Yi in any frame of mind and get an answer, you can ask in a rage, you can ask when you're mad, you can ask when you're sad and obsessed - you do no t need to have any fake idea of being 'in harmony with self' to consult Yi, someone just made that up. If you over ask you may find your answers becoming less and less meaningful because you have cast so many and then Yi may be answering on your state of mind which can happen.

If I over ask I tend to get 52. That is often Yi telling me to go away. There's many ways Yi can tell you to go away in a way that is useful to you. So 52 isn't only saying for me not to keep asking it's asking me to be still with the question. So any answer you feel is Yi talking directly to you about how you are engaging with it is useful. Just throwing 2 coins for 'invitation/refusal' is not useful. You have the entire intelligence of Yi to consult - you really can bring your stupidest maddest self to it and it can still say something useful. I don't think 2 coins for 'invitation/refusal' says anything useful - why would you do it when you have Yi ?

It is a pity that such misleading practices are spread about IMO especially for newbies. I think these practices arise because of a basic disconnect with the very nature of Yi. More of a pity on a forum where so many learning resources are available that can enhance a real connection, no invitation needed.

Freedda · Nov 23, 2018

Thanks for your response, a few thoughts:

mmvvdd80 said:
It's not about "am I allowed to ask", not about someone denying me in my desire to have a divination session.

Yep, I think I get that.

The book's texts after all are only one way to interpret the answer.

I'd like to know more about what you mean here? Are you referring to the trigrams, to the imagery? Or ....:

It's definitely not the book I address my question to.

... hmm ... I don't understand ...? If not to the Yi Jing, then to what or whom? The Easter Bunny? The Magic 8 Ball?

... so I like to think of a session as a conversation.

Yes, that makes sense to me too. I'd only say, you can't always (and maybe should not always) wait until the "perfect" time or mindset to pose your question or toss the coins. If we did that some of us might never consult the Yi! :duh:

Maybe "verification of appropriateness of moment, state of mind and form ... Or "an invitation". A sign I'm in accord with the moment and myself. Which I rarely am.

Yes, but again, we should not wait for perfection, or the perfect time, or perfect mindset.

We try to be as clear as we can, and go from there. And I wonder, if we do consult the Yi when we are angry or upset, maybe the Yi gives us the appropriate answer, including taking into account our less than perfect mindset - so maybe it doesn't make a lot of difference?

I'm thinking: what if 2,500 years ago, a soverign consulted the Yi about his enemy's troops massed at the city walls? Would he necessarily have to wait until a clear, calm moment to do his consultation? I really don't think so.

By asking an invitation I, first, really restricted my passion to do "repeated casts without enough focus to interpret" ...

... well then, if it keeps you from asking dozens of questions in a row (and not looking at all at the answers), then it's worth the price of admission right there.

I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited: - not enough focus -
something wrong with the question - you're obssessed about the situation - the time to ask is not right - you're not ready to accept the answer

... oh, again, maybe it's just fine to ask no matter what. I once thought that if I was to calm myself and focus on the question, without internal chatter, that I'd get a response with much fewer moving lines. But it seems like how many moving lines I got had nothing to do with how focused I was.

I usually try to be thoughtful when casting - pay attention to my breathe, repeat the question, then cast. However, I have a friend who just thinks of the question and then tossed the coins - bam bam bam - quick, all in a row! Seems she gets good responses too!

Maybe you can try it out for yourself: do a reading when you're really upset; then try the same reading when you're calm. I'm sure things are different? But could you say one cast is 'better' than the other, or is giving you more accurate information? Hmmm ...

A couple of times I was caught lying to myself.

Welcome to the monkey house!

As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.

I'd say, don't go there. An 'expirenced person' might know the Yi better, or have more experience under their belts at doing readings, but I would not put them on too high a pedestal about their 'harmony.' That's just asking for trouble. And sounds pretty darn elitist too.

hmesker · Nov 24, 2018

mmvvdd80 said:
I remember the list of reasons why you can be not invited:

- not enough focus on the question
- something wrong with the question wording
- you're obssessed about the situation and not thinking clearly
- the situation doesn't exist
- the answer is obvious
- the time to ask is not right yet (too early, all is unclear and moving)
- you're not ready to accept the answer

[video=youtube_share;eW8fMZq8I7I]https://youtu.be/eW8fMZq8I7I[/video]

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

Well, dear all, I must adimt I've been a bit overwhelmed to response right away.

Your answers are of a wide range between calm explanations and examples to sarcasm and passionate disproof (stern and cruel

). I felt as if I was attacked

Then I took my time re-reading them in more serene state of mind. Now I see it all is sincere and helping. Let me try to answer some of your points. Forgive me being incoherent sometimes.

From the gist of your comments I conclude that this ceremony detail I asked about hits your feeling of freedom of self expression. Like some usurper forces his heretic rules. I'm glad I have your perspective now. It's quite possible I'll get tired of the rituals and adapt your ways of communicating with Yi.

=======================
First of all, about Yi. Who answers?
=======================

A sign ? From where ? Where do you think you are getting a sign from ?

I'd love to know WHO's permission you are asking ? Is Yi sort of sitting there with legs crossed watching the 2 coin throw saying 'hmmm not sure maybe she can cast today' ?

... hmm ... I don't understand ...? If not to the Yi Jing, then to what or whom? The Easter Bunny? The Magic 8 Ball?

Isn't Yi Jing a book?
Truth to be said I've never researched in English who answers our questions, but from my language sources I've learned that there are different theories about it. Nature, ghosts, souls, some non-material intelligence. I've never given it much thought, it's enough for me to know it's somehow related to the Cosmos and the laws of Nature. Why does a coin flip this side up at this very moment? It's not the book's doing. There are ways of working with hexagrams without any texts (as I've learned recently to my astonishment). So the Book itself is just like a dictionary used in a very different ways by different people. Or not used at all.
It all started with Lo Shu Squares as far as I understand and there are layers of translations and interpretations. That is why I wrote that I don't ask the Book.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

====================
not being allowed, not getting permission
====================

I now feel just how the words are wrong.

You do not need any of these methods with their 'rules' of when it is okay to ask.

just someone's invention, it has no validity IMO

The book's author ("The Tao of I Ching: Way to Divination" by Tsung Hwa Jou) described a ceremony. China is famous for it's ceremonies after all. Sure they're not required. They're not rules. Suggestions, yes, or historical details. The custom of casting hexagrams is (and was) spread so widely no wonder details may differ profoundly from region to region, from one social group to another.
I often see advice to light candles and aroma sticks. To express respect to those who listens. It doesn't mean that by not lighting candles and sticks you're being disrespectful. It's a pagan something, like giving sacrificial offerings.
After all haven't we assimilated the practice of using I Ching divination in the first place? The way of casting, the texts, the ways of reading and understanding. I see no wrong in adapting someone's practice rituals if they feel ok to someone. Like casting on a rag with Mickey Mouse image. Some books say the details don't matter. That particular book mentioned a lot of details like facing south when asking your question or placing the first yarrow stick in a jug.

Your write "Who made out that we can't go" - but it's never been that we can't. Everyone can set his own ceremony I suppose. E.g. it's absolutely impossible for me to use software to cast a hex. But many people do, so for them it's not a problem. I however cannot sense it gives me true answers. I need special state of mind to have faith in all of this hex business.

A form of weak man made superstition and ritual getting in the way of connecting with the oracle"

Not sure I understand the point about the author of ceremony being weak superstitious man... We all are believers, aren't we?
E.g. my family is atheistic and to my parents flipping coins and reading lines on your palm is the same as praying to a deity carved in stone.
Or take Christians. Some pray in their mind. Some go to Church. Don't think it's a matter of strength.

I'm thinking: what if 2,500 years ago, a soverign consulted the Yi about his enemy's troops massed at the city walls? Would he necessarily have to wait until a clear, calm moment to do his consultation? I really don't think so.

Haven't researched it but remember some descriptions that a fasting and some purification took place before going to a shrine...
Maybe different kings of different times did it differently.
But I agree that since I cannot provide historical evidence of this devices's origin (aprart from that book I mentioned) you're justified to send me to a firing squad

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

===================
Connection with Yi
===================

Who made out that we can't go straight to Yi and have to cast some coins to see if we have permission as a sign ?

a basic disconnect with the very nature of Yi

a real connection

How can it be right or wrong? It's a feeling.

You don't need to meditate before casting and you certainly don't need to ask 'permission'.

-- But since you're supposed to meditate over every question for a while you cannot just ask another question instead of the rejected one right away.
-- Well you have posted quite a lot of questions in SR

I might have posted several questions at once, but only after I took my time thinking them over, meditating and "verifying" them by an invitement. (Please don't throw stones at me! I now understand how ridiculous it all must sound to you. I'm sorry!)

But this feeling of something true going on, it escapes me often. I cannot feel it right now, for example. Or going to work in subway. Maybe I'm a weak person, so be it.

As for not being good enough to talk to oracle, it's not about someone's goodness. Some moods allow to feel an outer Cosmos, to feel myself in it, to feel that irrational quietness of mind, some don't. Sometimes I wouldn't even take a risk to call my mom

Or cannot say whether I want to die or a chocolate bar. I feel I do need to meditate. It feels right, gives relief. Maybe I lack imagination. I asked Yi once what to do to repair my relashionship with my ex. I was just out of a hospital, all frenzied and nuts. I saw hex 44 and almost took it as an instruction to go sleep with him immediately at any cost. Rituals help, really.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

"Checklist" bashing

- something wrong with the question wording

Yi can respond to your question even if you ask with your feelings - even with no words - it can answer. It's hardly going to say 'oh no you're not invited as your sentence structure was poor'

Yeah, but I cannot make sense of the result if the question isn't clear to me. I cannot log it to think of it next week. So I'd rather ask another way another time than spend some 30 minutes with my y. stalks feeling the unthinkable or straying in thought to other topics. To find the right question is half the battle. It can take me a day or two but then (and only then) it feels as I do see/feel the meaning of an answer clearly.

Still I agree there really are questions that you wouldn't get out of your mind even if you travelled for a fortnight to some Oracle in the mountains. Never got a "no" for any of them.

If I over ask I tend to get 52. That is often Yi telling me to go away.

The same here if I'm planning to do some reckless and stupid stuff.
It's usually 39 UC if I ask wrong questions in wrong direction and should totally switch the perspective. Like "forget to ford here, take a train and go to another place". One time I got 39 UC thrice in a row. I thought something got stuck in I Ching.

I think I got "go away" in a form of 28 UC ("too much") when I was asking the same question in slightly different manner for over a week and the answers went stranger and stranger. It now feels like I was ringing my neighbor's doorbell day after day asking for a drug dose and he just didn't open the door unless finally he lost his temper, rushed out and shouted in my face "f..k off". He didn't do it straight away because he hoped I get the hint. But I'm not really personifying so literally, believe me.

We often ask about things that don't exist yet.

E.g. "How his visit will affect me", when he doesn't even think of a visit

I remember Hillary's post about illusional castles we can create out of our readings.
I now think if I could understand the answer immediately I'd skip the self-check "invite" ritual.

I mean if one isn't ready to accept an answer that attitude will probably be evident in the answer. For example 21.6 or 4.4 or43.4

That's just what I meant! It's too difficult for me to comprehend. It takes me hours to compile a line's meaning from different sources. The way you people can communicate via such chains of hex.line combinations...

Yes, that makes sense to me too. I'd only say, you can't always (and maybe should not always) wait until the "perfect" time or mindset to pose your question or toss the coins. If we did that some of us might never consult the Yi!

I certainly feel the difference even a long time after the question was asked, when reading my log. Some question-answer pairs feel true, some do not. It all derives from my state of mind in the moment of casting. Aslo, the "rejected" questions list itself is something. Plenty of my time (which I whould spend trying to understand the reading) was saved.

I'd say, don't go there. An 'expirenced person' might know the Yi better, or have more experience under their belts at doing readings, but I would not put them on too high a pedestal about their 'harmony.' That's just asking for trouble. And sounds pretty darn elitist too.

It does feel that way though. You can do "21.6 or 4.4 or 43.4" things!
Yet the longer I practice the quicker I find my questions and connect dots of my answers. Must be the experience

Haven't answered each of your comments, sorry. I wonder if the forum has "hide under cut" mechanism. Tried to find it, failed.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

To Gmulii

However in forums where we use Liu Yao and other of the systems that are used professionally in Asia, none of this is needed. Members usually make Hexagram from websites like this one:
http://www.zhycw.com/pp/liuyao.aspx
(just click the orange button while thinking about the question to make then we can copy/paste)
And most of the time readings can be very accurate even though there was no meditation at all from the person asking.

I only discovered this approach and practice recently. But it bugs me that it implies (as astrology in general does) that all your life's events and deeds are predefined. It's a contrast with how I was introduced to I Ching divination as a practice where outcome of your decisions is on you and it changes if you act differently.

mmvvdd80 · Nov 25, 2018

To hmesker

Sorry about video. I've got very poor internet connection here, would take me ages to download

Trojina · Nov 25, 2018

Rituals help, really

Hang on ...suddenly you have made this about ritual but your first posts had nothing to do with ritual they were to do with casting coins to seek permission to consult Yi by using a particular method. A method not a ritual.

To be clear what you wrote of in your first post is not just a ritual it's permission seeking.

That is what you asked about.

Well if you want to copy a practise whereby you seek permission to consult and then call it a ritual it's up to you I suppose. You asked what we thought, I've told you.

As a reminder this was your initial question no mention of ritual.

Hi,

I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.

You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).

That's not a ritual - it's not like lighting incense or a candle - it's actually a method that you think tells you when you can and can't consult. If you like it use it, it's a pity to use it but I can see after what you said about receiving 44, below, how you might feel the need to use it if your life is just totally governed to that extent by what you believe are 'instructions' from Yi - well maybe better if you don't use oracles at all for now ?

As for not being good enough to talk to oracle, it's not about someone's goodness. Some moods allow to feel an outer Cosmos, to feel myself in it, to feel that irrational quietness of mind, some don't. Sometimes I wouldn't even take a risk to call my mom
Or cannot say whether I want to die or a chocolate bar. I feel I do need to meditate. It feels right, gives relief. Maybe I lack imagination. I asked Yi once what to do to repair my relashionship with my ex. I was just out of a hospital, all frenzied and nuts. I saw hex 44 and almost took it as an instruction to go sleep with him immediately at any cost. Rituals help, really

.

I think I see what you are saying. You are saying that you don't always trust your mental state when asking Yi so you use this method of seeking permission in order to know when it's a good time to cast, meaning when your mind state is lucid enough not to go completely over the edge and 'obey' like it was a firm 'instruction' to go and have sex. Yes if you are going to take answers as an authoritative external directive that is concerning.

But you are still seeking an instruction when casting the coins to decide whether or not you are allowed to consult. Perhaps you are saying you need that kind of directive from an oracle since your own sense of agency is compromised and weakened. But your own autonomy, your power of choice, is never lost with Yi and it seems to me by using this method of tossing to ask permission to consult you are almost coming between your self and Yi.

I think the problem is with the word 'permission'.....because in your last few posts you explain you don't really mean permission though that is the word you used.

You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission.

So you started out in your first post as saying you were asking permission but then in your later responses you say it is only a ritual.

Anyone who ever tells you that you need 'permission' to consult is not to be listened to. You said

How can it be right or wrong? It's a feeling

It wasn't about a feeling it was about you asking permission by tossing coins. If someone says you need to ask permission to consult Yi that is wrong because it is not true. It's tantamount to saying only priests can pray However it appears you didn't actually mean you were seeking permission, even though that is what you wrote, you weren't seeking permission in the sense that you had to be a certain way to consult Yi, you were asking if your own mind was in a good place to consult and receive an answer because sometimes your own mind misperceives oracles as actual orders - such as 'go and have sex with your ex'.

I still don't think it's a great thing to do, it's superstitious, and I think you can use your own judgement to decide when and when not to consult. You can also use your own judgement regardless of what answer you get. You are never out of the driving seat, you aren't handing responsibility for your life over to something outside of you. It helps I think to remember Yi is counselling you first and foremost,
'offering' you ways of seeing but never barking orders about who you should have sex with.

Freedda · Nov 26, 2018

mmvvdd80,

I did not mean to judge or offend with any of my responses, though there was perhaps some well-intentioned ribbing. Also, what you are coming up against is the fact that many of use have strong opinions about the do's and don't's of the Yi - even though we are often critical of others who have lots of rules and opinions! - as I said, welcome to the monkey house! :duh:

I'll say that for me, Harmen's video 3, "How (not) to consult the Yijing" pretty much covers the points I was trying to make about how to ask a query of the Yi:

... that you do not need to be calm, clear, have a totally well formed question, have an empty mind, or even pay much attention to when you cast or how you cast your query in order to get an informative response from the Yi. (Coins, yarrow stalks, dice, computers are all fine, at least that's what I think.)

You can also stream the video; you don't have to download it.

Of course, it is what works for you that counts, but I'd say you don't have to impose these things just because others are saying they are necessary or 'sacred.' But again, it's your call what works best for you.

Perhaps the 'proof is in the pudding' and you should experiment: ask a question while trying to be calm, in-tune, in a sacred space etc. ... and then ask the same question again just being yourself with all your chatter and distractions -- and then see if there's a difference in the quality of the answers. I say 'quality' because it is likely they answers will be different, but it's getting useful information that counts.

Regards, David.

diamanda · Nov 26, 2018

mmvvdd80 said:
I've been wondering how popular is the approach I saw a couple of times in different descriptions of working with I Ching.
You ask a question and cast 2 coins to verify if you should proceed with this question. If coins are the same sides up, you've got no premission. It implies that maybe something's wrong with your question or with yourself (not concentrating enough).
Some sources state it's ok to meditate a bit more on this question and repeat 2 coins cast. If the coins are the same sides up again, then you shouldn't go on. When asking several questions (to get details about previous reading), you ask if you should proceed after every question.(...)

From the looks of it, this is not a popular method with people in this particular forum. I've never heard of this before myself. Saying that, if it's a long-standing Chinese tradition, there must be something in it. To me it sounds similar to a day when we want to consult astrology only to 'see' that (for example) Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct and retrograde in out 3rd house, plus the moon is void of course. Which would mean something like 'no matter what you ask or think right now, in a few hours or days it won't matter'.

mmvvdd80 said:
As you can see all the checks are unnecessary for an experienced person who's in harmony with one's self.

I'll totally disagree with this though. Wrong timing and confusing times can happen to absolutely everyone. No matter how much harmony one has with themselves, there are invisible forces which could be adverse.

mmvvdd80 said:
it bugs me that it implies (as astrology in general does) that all your life's events and deeds are predefined. It's a contrast with how I was introduced to I Ching divination as a practice where outcome of your decisions is on you and it changes if you act differently.

The truth lies in between. Divination is neither all destiny, neither all personal decision. Divination provides the wisdom to know when we can affect the outcome, or not.

charly · Nov 28, 2018

diamanda said:
From the looks of it, this is not a popular method with people in this particular forum. I've never heard of this before myself. Saying that, if it's a long-standing Chinese tradition, there must be something in it.
...
Wrong timing and confusing times can happen to absolutely everyone. No matter how much harmony one has ...

Dear Diamanda:

I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say.

I am afraid that the late Master Jou could not defend himself if it were not for his writings.

For people interested in reading the book where the ritual in question is described, in Ferrero's «Labirinto Ermetico» can get the book in pdf format, easy readable, printable and searchable.

The link is here:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09iching/Tsung_Hwa_Jou_The_Tao_Of_I_Ching.pdf
The home page of the site:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/principale.htm

I think it is a fair use, I am sure that the master will not feel that it is a violation of his copyright but will enjoy seeing the interest in his work and in the defense of his ideas, even by people who may not share them.

I did not know Maser Jou but I have the prejudice that he, as good taoist, was a man of action no less than a man of meditation. Even more, I also imagine that he was fond of wine, women and gambling. I don't know why!

Maybe the ritual he proposed have an ancient and venerable tradition. It could also be that the Master himself initiated that tradition, although unnoticed for most people.

If you have time, please, read chapter 2.2 and share with us your conclusions.

I cannot be objective with Jou Tsung Hwa.

Maybe reason has nothing to do here but emotion. Consulting the Changes is far for being a scientific approach to problem solving. It requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation, which is not consistent, accurate and well developped rational speech. Neither talking with oneself neither with one's imaginary friends. Only free flow of feelings with the practic goal of getting a little of insight.

Don't you believe so?

All the best,

Charly

moss elk · Nov 28, 2018

charly said:
I did not know Maser Jou but I have the prejudice that he, as good taoist, was a man of action no less than a man of meditation. Even more, I also imagine that he was fond of wine, women and gambling. I don't know why!

I can't tell if you are trying make me laugh or cry.

Freedda · Nov 28, 2018

charly said:
... I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say .... I cannot be objective with Jou Tsung Hwa.

Mmvvdd80's original question was pretty simple: are people here familiar with the method where you ask "permission" before doing a reading. I believe most of us don't use this method and don't feel we need to. That's about it for me.

(Note: I'm using the word 'permission' generically, and we all agree there are different meanings discussed above, but I don't think we need to belabor the definition ... again.)

charly said:
.... Consulting the Changes ... requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation ...

Again, I think that many of us don't think some sort of inner calm or meditative state is needed to get good info from the Yi. - Refer to Harmen Mesker's 'Video 3: how (not) to consult the Yijing' in Exploring Divination.

I think many of us agree too that if Mmvvdd80 feels it helps in doing a reading, then go for it. But the proof is always in the pudding and I don't think someone should do or not do something just because someone else - even a 'master' - says they should. Even the Buddha said, in essence, "don't believe me or blindly do what I say, but check it for yourself, to see if it's true or not."

Kindly, David

charly · Nov 29, 2018

Moss Elk said:
I can't tell if you are trying make me laugh or cry.

Hi, Moss:

I beg your pardon, when I wrote the post I didn't think of you. Of course, it's always better to laugh, better to your own health.

I was just trying to encourage people to read Master Jou to build a well-based opinion.

Not that I share the use of the described ritual, but I believe to understand some of the reasons that moved Master Jou to recommend it.

I also believe that dead people deserve respect, even more a Master like Jou was. Reading and trying to understand him is maybe a way to pay respect to his memory. And a way to improve our skills in reading the Changes.

I've said that I imagine how was Master Jou as a person. I believe he was, among other things, an artist.
Maybe this portrait of a young Jou inspired me about his personal qualities:

Grandmaster Jou, Tsung Hwa
July 13, 1917 – August 3, 1998

Source: Tai Chi Memorial Park http://taichipark.com/

Seee how he looked. And see that he wore moccasins!

All the best,

Charly

hmesker · Nov 29, 2018

Jou Tsung Hwa had the habit of mixing different traditions. He incorporated material from the Duanyi Tianji in his book which is a completely different way of using the Yijing, and without knowing its origin and usage you might be left to wonder why Hwa's book is so different from other books. He also uses Meihua Yishu (Plumblossom Numerology) in a way that it is not the 'normal' practice. That he refers to the usage of moon blocks (shenggao è�–ç*¶ in his book; normally called jiaobei ç*Šæ�¯) when consulting the Yijing fits this pattern: they are only used with temple or household oracles and serve no function in traditional Yi usage.

Trojina · Nov 29, 2018

I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say.

I think you miss the point, have spun off at an elliptic tangent when you make the initial question here, which was what we thought of asking permission to consult, now all about master Jou. He wasn't even mentioned in the initial post but later after prompting.

So the question was about asking permission and yes we have our own relatively well seasoned Yi minds to decide about that without needing to defer to any particular 'master' or indeed it being to do with any particular 'master'.

I am afraid that the late Master Jou could not defend himself if it were not for his writings.

There is no question of defending - this thread is not about an unknown person's reputation, it is about the idea of asking first, by coin tossing, if you have permission to consult or have a sign to consult, whichever one wants to call it.

For people interested in reading the book where the ritual in question is described, in Ferrero's «Labirinto Ermetico» can get the book in pdf format, easy readable, printable and searchable.

The link is here:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09iching/Tsung_Hwa_Jou_The_Tao_Of_I_Ching.pdf
The home page of the site:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/principale.htm

The first link, if you recommended reading chapter 2 - well looking at chapter 2 it's not even something to take seriously is it. It says

".for the frist time in English, the Way to enlightenment"

Yes he did write the 'frist time' clearly enlightenment did nothing for his ability to use the spell check. Somehow I don't think it is the first thing in English regarding this. Nor do I think that the practise of casting 2 coins to see if you are allowed to consult has very much to do with Taoism.

I'm thinking it is these links that made Moss Elk say he wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry ?

Hmm then well clicking on the second link then going to the I Ching section I note that it consists pretty much simply of copies of Legge , Wilhelm, Cleary and other scholars. The front page I cannot read as it is not in English but I can't say it fills me with confidence about the author. Reminds me a bit of that other guy with the immortality rings and the pills that are meant to make you better looking

Not that I share the use of the described ritual, but I believe to understand some of the reasons that moved Master Jou to recommend it.

Well if you understand them explain them butI think you would find that we have already answered those reasons with our own reasons.

I also believe that dead people deserve respect, even more a Master like Jou was. Reading and trying to understand him is maybe a way to pay respect to his memory. And a way to improve our skills in reading the Changes.

Now this is getting a little bit peculiar. We have gone from someone asking what we think of asking permission to cast to the necessity of respecting dead people. I have my own ideas about the questions posed and really have no need to pay any respect to this person whether he is dead or alive !

Going by your reasoning here no one would be able to offer their own thoughts of or any critique of an idea or practice if the person who once had them is now dead. Lots of people write critiques of Shakespeare's work. Do you really think it would be relevant if someone came along and said "this is not fair he is not here to defend himself". That would be crazy wouldn't it. Ideas can be talked about without them being a great insult to the person who once had them or used them. Perhaps folks must never speak of Christianity since Christ is not here to defend himself - perhaps no academic discussions can happen over any literary figures since it would be 'disrespectful' in your eyes to speak of the ideas of dead people.

I've said that I imagine how was Master Jou as a person. I believe he was, among other things, an artist.
Maybe this portrait of a young Jou inspired me about his personal qualities:

It makes no difference to me who he was or what his personal qualities were. Why would it ? If everyone thought you had to consider personal qualities of those who wrote books before being allowed to discuss the ideas in their work the whole of academia would be silenced.

I think it is a fair use, I am sure that the master will not feel that it is a violation of his copyright but will enjoy seeing the interest in his work and in the defense of his ideas, even by people who may not share them.

You haven't defended his ideas you have defended his lifestyle and his shoes. You have yet to defend his ideas you have not really engaged with them yet.

I did not know Maser Jou but I have the prejudice that he, as good taoist, was a man of action no less than a man of meditation. Even more, I also imagine that he was fond of wine, women and gambling. I don't know why!

...and that is relevant to the question first posed in this thread because ….? You appear to assume we are not intelligent or well read enough to give an opinion on the topic of seeking permission to consult without knowing about master Jou. Frankly I think we are.

Putting the word 'master' before a Chinese name or any other name doesn't automatically confer authority over persons without such a claim to being a 'master'.

It is my perception that the truly ground breaking work on the study of the I Ching is currently coming from western scholars. I don't think there's a huge interest in Yi in China at the moment. None of the western scholars call themselves 'master' yet it appears to me they have so much more to offer than someone such as master Jou. No offence to master Jou, I don't know him (though don't have a great impression of the website) as far as I'm concerned he isn't relevant to my opinion one way or the other, as stated here, I can make my own mind up having been engaged with Yi as long as I have. Indeed I should think any Yi user could give a respectable opinion on this topic regardless of any master who had ideas about asking permission to consult.

As Freedda said all there is to it, this asking permission thing, really is that it's not necessary. If a person wants to do it it's up to them although if they ever felt they had to ask permission and then felt inadequate when this method said 'no' well I don't think that would be a good thing because, as I said, that would come between them and their access to Yi which would be a great pity.

Maybe the ritual he proposed have an ancient and venerable tradition. It could also be that the Master himself initiated that tradition, although unnoticed for most people.

Again this use of the word 'master' doesn't immediately throw me into paroxysms of humility. I am afraid I have seen too many masters I would rename 'charlatans'

And here's a thought. What of the venerable Freedda or the venerable Moss Elk ? Never mind ancient traditions of which you are not sure and persons who call themselves 'master' , what about having respect for those who engage and study seriously now and have for many years through consulting this oracle and working with it ? You cannot expect people who use and work with the Yi to suddenly retract and rethink their view on asking permission to consult and say 'Ah wow it was a master who thought of this - wow a Master - wow I must bow my head and wobble it vigorously'.

It's not realistic is it.

It requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation, which is not consistent, accurate and well developped rational speech.

Well no it doesn't require an inner attitude close to meditation and I say this from 40 plus years of consulting it so I do think I have a pretty good idea of what is required to get a meaningful answers from Yi as I have been getting them all that time...if I hadn't I wouldn't still be doing it

Am I about to discard my 40 years of Yi answering me whether I am bad, sad, crazy, mad, happy, excited, angry, scared because some 'master' says that Yi cannot be consulted in those frames of mind ? No of course not. My own lived experience is my truth and I don't hand over my truth because someone puts master before their name.

Do you consult the I Ching Charlie ? I have never seen you describe a reading experience of your own ? I'm guessing you must do but I have never seen it. The reason I ask is that you are so ready to discount the opinions of those who do consult and as they consult they do have an opinion on whether 'permission' needs to be sought. You said, speaking of us, that you doubted we had read certain things, that we were too quick too judge without enough knowledge - I don't think you have a sound basis for that at all. It seems to me that rather than engage with the question that was asked you are throwing in somewhat veiled accusations at us of disrespect to a dead 'master' when said master was not really a central part of the discussion here at all. Views were offered on this thread even before his name was mentioned.

Asking a permission to go on with your question and cast a hexagram.

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