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23 and 43 opposites, yet similar

moss elk

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Has anyone pondered 23 and 43?

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23
Image, Wilhelm:
Thus those above can ensure their position only by giving generously to those below.(which line 5 does, 6's fate depends on if it did)
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43
Image, Wilhelm:
Thus the superior man dispenses riches downward and refrains from resting on his virtue.
(line 6 is resting on his virtue and has stopped dispensing downward,
The other lines are all determined to get rid of him, line 5 does it in a balanced way, coinciding with the message: not to resort to violence and refer the matter to the emperor/king instead.)

I do not know what official line 6 is refering to, does anyone?
It is a picture of someone of rank, but subordinate to the king/emperor,
because the matter of their removal is refered to the higher court. It makes me think of a decorated soldier or general given a small lordship, who then started eating bon bons, and neglected his people.
 

steve

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Hey Moss Elk

You know I have never cast 43.6, I am kind of glad to be honest, its doesn't look like an ideal situation to be in. I see what you mean in the relationship. Hexagram 23, to me can be seen as termites or something similar. You may be giving poison to what is below as well,

I think in some cases with 23 while giving may feel like extortion, but you have to do it to prevent things from falling apart.
Visually you can see it as well, to me hexagram 23 looks an army attacking from below.

That sounds like line 6 in hexagram 43,
43.6 I agree is something, that should be dealt with quickly or strong advice on not neglecting something. I imagine you could receive the line when having a task you dont really want to do, procrastinating then suffering the consequences.

Is there are relationship between the two hexagrams I am not aware of?

Steve
 

hilary

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Well, traditionally line 6 is the place of the 'sage', so if you especially wanted to imagine 43.6 as belonging to a particular kind of official, how about an advisor or mentor? But 43.6's problem is simpler than that, I think - it just lies in the difference between

'Deciding, tell it in the king's chambers.
With truth, call out, there is danger...'

and

'Not calling out.
In the end, pitfall.'

So on the whole, this is just a messenger - someone who knows what needs to be said - now failing to do his job. Maybe he belongs at line 6 on account of being an outsider.

Anyway... good catch, with the similarity between the two Image texts, both suggesting a transfer of wealth from above to below. That's the pattern they share: the seal and its impression. Why are they opposites? Because of where the power and energy lies, surely, and what it's doing - coming vs going. That also makes for opposite experiences: enforced giving in 23, as Steve says, where the only thing you get to choose is how to see the loss; a chosen philanthropic role in 43.
 

moss elk

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Yes, I have been thinking about this ever since I posted it.

Now, I see 43 as having the three components of Decisiveness + Calling Out + Peacefully Getting Rid of.

Line 6 isn't following the advice to call out for help in the matter
and tries to do it himself (but isn't strong enough to do)
and that is where the misfortune comes in.
 

moss elk

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So, it seems that the possible official that 43 is not directly mentioning is not line 6, but is instead the one thing that all lines are dealing with.

About 23.5: I saw Yi use it to refer to an inheritance.
 

Trojina

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Yes, I have been thinking about this ever since I posted it.

Now, I see 43 as having the three components of Decisiveness + Calling Out + Peacefully Getting Rid of.

Line 6 isn't following the advice to call out for help in the matter
and tries to do it himself (but isn't strong enough to do)
and that is where the misfortune comes in.


:confused: it doesn't say anything about not being strong enough to call out it just says she/he/it doesn't


'Not calling out.
In the end, pitfall.'


(Hilary's translation)


I was confused as to why you were writing about an official when there isn't one there ? Why would there be an official here in line 6 ?


Not calling out can even just be something not announcing itself as present when it needs to.

So, it seems that the possible official that 43 is not directly mentioning is not line 6, but is instead the one thing that all lines are dealing with


What is the one thing that you think all lines are dealing with ?
 

moss elk

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:confused: it doesn't say anything about not being strong enough to call out it just says she/he/it doesn't

I didn't mean not strong enough to call out, I meant not strong enough to deal with the matter without calling out.
Right, I am reading what is not written (the invisible gorrilla in the hex) in order to understand what is written. The text of Line 6 should not be considered apart from the context/spirit of 43.

All the lines are 'firm' in allegiance to the cause and means of 43. (decisively + peacefully(calling out) + getting rid of) Except line 6 who doesn't call out. I think we may logically conclude that line 6's misfortune comes from being decisive + working to get rid of , but tries to do it without calling for assistance...(like a lone policemen who just saw a gang of armed robbers run into a dark alley, should he go in alone or call for backup?) if one were actually powerful enough to do it, they wouldn't need to call for help.

What is the one thing that you think all lines are dealing with ?
Well, my first thought was, as I said, possibly a minor-ish lord, or small king that isn't doing his job to help the people. So, the others refer the matter to the high king, instead of attacking, as the hex recommends.

I don't think the official is line 6,
I have changed my opinion since I started this thread. I think the official is an un-named subject that the hex is dealing with.
 
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Trojina

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All the lines are 'firm' in allegiance to the cause and means of 43. (decisively + peacefully(calling out) + getting rid of) Except line 6 who doesn't call out.


Oh you mean 'firm' as in yang lines. Reading the line texts I wouldn't say they were terribly firm in allegiance to anything but then I don't see 43 in terms of allegiance.

I think we may logically conclude that line 6's misfortune comes from being decisive + working to get rid of , but tries to do it without calling for assistance... if one were actually powerful enough, they wouldn't need to call for help.

That's not been my sense of the line from experience. 43 isn't only 'getting rid of' it can at times just be announcing. An announcement of intent or simply of presence.

I think the not calling out isn't always about not calling out for help it can be do to do with simply not expressing ones wishes, needs or desires. It can be for anything not showing itself, not announcing itself, that needs to, even bodily symptoms. So I don't think that has to imply not being strong enough. I mean it might sometimes in some readings but I can think of many instances where it doesn't - there's a recent CC thread for example...
 

moss elk

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That's not been my sense of the line from experience. 43 isn't only 'getting rid of' it can at times just be announcing. An announcement of intent or simply of presence.

Right, I didn't say it was Only getting rid of, I said I see three distinct components (Decisiveness/Resoluteness + dealing with a problem/ridding of + calling out for help (peaceful method)
 

moss elk

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I think the not calling out isn't always about not calling out for help it can be to do with simply not expressing ones wishes, needs or desires

A need is a lack of.
The lacking needs help.
The needy calls out and gets help.
The need that doesn't call out is unfortunate.
 

Trojina

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Right, I didn't say it was Only getting rid of, I said I see three distinct components (Decisiveness/Resoluteness + dealing with a problem/ridding of + calling out for help (peaceful method)


As I said I think it can be simply announcing oneself or something being announced which isn't included in your 3 components. Announcing can sometimes mean simply being there, showing up.

A need is a lack of.
The lacking needs help.
The needy calls out and gets help.
The need that doesn't call out is unfortunate.


Well no a need doesn't always need outside help or to call for outside help. There are lots of examples of this. A person doesn't speak up when they want to join something, perhaps they are bashful. They don't need help they just need to 'cry out' to speak their need, to go ahead and express what they need to express. That doesn't mean they need help. I've seen this countless times when a person holds back their opinion or something when something needs to be announced by them. That's not calling out for help, that's about them suppressing their need to express themselves when it would be better in fact if they did.


As far as I know the words 'need' and 'help' aren't there ? If they are I stand to be corrected but all I see there is


'Not calling out.
In the end , pitfall.'


All the stuff about needing and helping are additional associations. Understandable associations but they won't necessarily always apply in real life readings as I can testify indeed as you can see by looking at wiki and people's experiences or seeing the thread on this line in CC.



'Not calling out.
In the end, pitfall.'


can apply to vast array of circumstances and really is not always about needing help or not being strong enough. It might be sometimes depending on the question but it would be a mistake I think to box it in as 'the meaning' of 43.6 when people have known it so many other ways. It can manifest in so many other ways and I don't see that you are justified in surmising that because something is not expressed or something does not show up that it 'needs' external help because it isn't strong enough. Surely recent examples in CC illustrate that quite clearly ?

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?26714-New-Member-with-43-6-gt-1-confusion!

plus wiki entries


..but more important the words. All I have is my Ritsema Sabbadini so I don't know about this but I don't see the words for 'help' or 'need' or 'not strong enough' in that. I think those are all concepts that people have made association with the line with but in real life reading it's just not always like that at all.


It is quite a different thing I think for you to see implied meaning to if the meaning is actually there. I think the line is far bigger, potentially wider in meaning than what you are trying to package it as.


Looking for the word for 'help' (well rescue), looked at 59.1 and it is the word Zheng - is that word in 43.6 ? I can't see it ?
 
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moss elk

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Well no a need doesn't always need outside help or to call for outside help.

A need that one can handle themselves doesn't need to call out.
It just needs to be put on a checklist to be taken care of.



In essence,
one who cries out,
is seeking help.
(whether they know it or not)

The baby cries out..... help comes.

An adult without a partner (who wants one) cries out their loneliness..."hey, what are you doing later?" maybe a date is planned.

Someone is very uncomfortable with a thing, any old thing, cries out (expresses the need) others help with the matter.
 
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Trojina

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By definition,
one who cries out,
is seeking help.
(whether they know it or not)

The baby cries out..... help comes.

An adult without a partner (who wants one) cries out their loneliness..."hey, what are you doing later?" maybe a date is planned.

Someone is very uncomfortable with a thing, any old thing, cries out (expresses the need) others help with the matter.

I just edited my earlier adding why I think this is not necessarily so at all.

You are just running with your own modern day language idea of what 'crying out ' is here despite numerous other examples of what not crying out can mean that are available here. You are determined to think it is always like a baby crying out and such so if that's what you want to think …
 

Trojina

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All I said was that it should not be considered out of the context of the hexagram.

Is that really so galling to you?


That wasn't all you said or all you are saying. You seem to be saying that 43.6 has to be about calling out for help if one is not strong enough.


Please notice how 'calling out' is by definition, getting help outside of ONESELF. It even has the OUT part of outside.


It's your definition in your language it is not the definition and it isn't how it always works in real life readings. You can see that for yourself.

The word for help is not there (not as far as I know) and Yi does often refer to rescue and help but it doesn't here

What you are doing is understanding it just through your modern day associations with the words 'cry out'. Sometimes that will work, sometimes it won't.

Why not check out other people's experiences of this line in Wikiwing or on the recent 43.6 thread in CC. There you can see how 'cry out' can be taken a number of ways and doesn't always have to mean calling out for others to help because one isn't strong enough.
 

moss elk

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Bradfords 43 (judgement) has:
A truthful appeal

An appeal is reaching out for help.
 

Trojina

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I am not determined to see it that way, I just see it that way.

I've seen no evidence that I have mispoken. If I see such evidence my opinion will change.


Well there's experiential 'evidence' in Wikiwing under 43.6, a whole variety of ways that 43.6 has applied, it's an interesting section. And as I said I think you are interpreting 'cry out ' in one particular way that actually won't always apply.

I also think if you just take the actual words of Yi here you might see that the associations of calling for outside help whilst understandable aren't specifically there in the line. But what I don't understand is how you can read the accounts in wiki and on the forum and still stick to the idea that this line is always about calling for outside help :confused:


I think the commentaries that only talk of getting help here can be quite misleading. Often in a reading it just simply isn't a question of getting help for anything. Sometimes it can be but other times it isn't.
 

moss elk

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I think part of the friction here is that I am speaking of 43 more generally, and you may be focusing on line 6.
(correct me if I'm mistaken)

I also think if you just take the actual words of Yi here you might see that the associations of calling for outside help whilst understandable aren't specifically there in the line.

And I think if you do that,
you are taking the line out of the context of 43. (which is seen in the judgement and image)


I'll read through the wiki-experiences later today.
 

Trojina

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Bradfords 43 (judgement) has:
A truthful appeal

An appeal is reaching out for help.


Yes you can take truthful appeal in many ways according to what the question is about. You know you do fit your answer to he level of the question. I have had 43 for just going to meet someone - I present myself as I am, that could be thought of as a truthful appeal. You see that doesn't mean every time you get 43 you are crying out for help over something now does it ?

I'm not out to convince you. I'm not even clear why you are so invested in narrowing the meaning for line 6 down so far that it excludes all the ways real life people have known the line play out :confused:


I don't think I've much more to add that won't be repetition of earlier posts.

Crossed posts

I think part of the friction here is that I am speaking of 43 more generally, and you may be focusing on line 6.
(correct me if I'm mistaken)


You were focusing on line 6, and perhaps in aiming to speak or think generally you narrowed meanings down to your particular associations - you wrote of line 6 and 43

Now, I see 43 as having the three components of Decisiveness + Calling Out + Peacefully Getting Rid of.

Line 6 isn't following the advice to call out for help in the matter
and tries to do it himself (but isn't strong enough to do)
and that is where the misfortune comes in.


I think it is inevitable that when any of us tries to pinpoint components of hexagrams and lines in English there will always be a loss of meaning. This is where I find the language of experience can express more fully the essence of a hexagram or line because they can convey the huge diversity of application in readings. Under 43.6 in wiki for example we have a great example of a phone line rental and a biopsy result - we see the 'cry out' in very different ways and yet in both we are answered perfectly.

I see the beauty of this, I see the beauty of how these few words can answer so many people in different situations. When someone tries to narrow it down to just one meaning for that line according to their own definition of 'cry out' for example - well it's not friction that occurs it - er well it is me speaking my truth on the matter which is very apt in this thread ;)



I'll read through the wiki-experiences later today


I recommend it.
 
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moss elk

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You see that doesn't mean every time you get 43 you are crying out for help over something now does it ?

:) quite the opposite,
your own words convinced me that it does
mean reaching-out, calling-out, to others.

Your Pen-emy,
M.E. :)
 

Trojina

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:) quite the opposite,
your own words convinced me that it does
mean reaching-out, calling-out, to others.

Your Pen-emy,
M.E. :)


We keep crossing posts so it's time for a cup of tea - but why, would you want to take this line and put it in a little box so that it always means one thing and do so regardless of other's own experience with the line I do not know.

Personally I think it's a good idea to keep one's eye on wiki - step out of the page - step away from the page and realize this oracle isn't for pinning down quite so hard.

But speaking of the page there is also the matter of the actual words, the beautiful words where of course I don't have much of a leg to stand on but the bit of leg I do have seems to support my idea, well it's not just an idea, that this line does not always mean one must seek help from an outside source. It doesn't say that you have implied it for yourself through your own associations with the use of 'cry out' in modern day America.
 

moss elk

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I am having coffee now as well.
 
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