...life can be translucent

Menu

learning to read facial expressions

der_wanderer

visitor
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
85
Reaction score
2
I noticed an increasing interest regarding psychology within the last year. When it comes to human interaction, i primarly focused on language so far. So i asked the i ching "what effect will it have, if i put effort in improving my abilty to read faces" and received 22.1.3.5.6 with 8 as the resulting hexagram.

As my ability to read the i ching is somewhere next to nothing, i would appreciate some thoughts on that. My own interpretation is: yes it is possible to improve, but stay consistent in your effort and don't rely on yourself exclusively while doing so
 
F

Freedda

Guest
Wanderer,

I think that caution is called for when you have so many moving lines - as if too much is moving or is agitated. To 'read' people in different ways is natural built-in human ability and we all have it to greater or lesser degrees. I had a neighbor whose son was autistic; he was high functioning, but he had no ability to read people's expressions or body language. So I suppose - if he could (and he really couldn't) - it would be good if he developed those skills.

But in your case, I wonder, what is your need and motivation here? It may be a fun distraction or a useful skill, depending on how you use it, but perhaps your time would be better spent looking for ways to connect and find common ground with others, as opposed to trying to 'read' them.


D.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
looking for ways to connect and find common ground with others

From 8, Seeking Union, as the relating hexagram, right? (Just to document and explain, as Der Wanderer says he's new to this.)
 

der_wanderer

visitor
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
85
Reaction score
2
i may not know how to read a face, but i sure as hell know this: first you need to read a person accurately, then you can connect and may or may not find common ground...there are gifts by nature and there are developed skills - if we would only stick to the natural gifts, there would be no improvement of mankind

but you might right about the moving lines
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
The mere fact of many moving lines can mean that the situation is complicated. David (Freedda) is right about that. But exactly what the complication is about depends on the line texts and the reading as a whole. I don't have any good ideas about it right now.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
In other words, "facial expressions as a way of 'seeking union' or connecting with people" - hexagram 22 to hexagram 8 - yes, that's a perfectly good framework for the reading.

Exactly what that means - what Yi's telling us about it, whether it's good, bad, possible, not possible, and so forth - probably depends on the texts of the moving lines.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
I noticed an increasing interest regarding psychology within the last year. When it comes to human interaction, i primarly focused on language so far. So i asked the i ching "what effect will it have, if i put effort in improving my abilty to read faces" and received 22.1.3.5.6 with 8 as the resulting hexagram.

As my ability to read the i ching is somewhere next to nothing, i would appreciate some thoughts on that. My own interpretation is: yes it is possible to improve, but stay consistent in your effort and don't rely on yourself exclusively while doing so

When you say 'what effect will it have' effect on what ? What will it effect ? Do you mean in terms of grades or in terms of enjoyment or what ?

To me the answer looks just like a picture of face reading since 22 has to do with outer appearances that adorn and give clues to the nature of something.

But there is a caution in 22 not to ever take the adornment as being the nature of something - see the Image in Wilhelm.

So outer appearance can give a clue to the nature of something so we can know it (8) but how much can we know only from appearance, I think Yi is saying, has a limit.

I have watched a number of facial expression readings on YouTube - you know where someone well known is analysed by an 'expert' to determine how honest they are etc. I came to the conclusion it carries about as much weight as handwriting analysis. That is there's something there but not enough to base serious decisions about a person on. I certainly wasn't ready to believe the face reading expert knew for sure all about the mental processes of someone via their eye movements and so on.

But I would think it is a fascinating area of study.

Hexagram 8 can be that to which you are naturally drawn - and of course the advice is to not be late in joining in with what you feel a natural affinity to.

So I'd say yes you have a natural affinity to this study of facial expressions and you need to make a frm decision in a reasonable time before it's too late and the option isn't available or something.

When so many line change it doesn't mean the situation is unstable in a bad way it just means the relating hexagram is more central to the reading.

If the lines talk of your approach to the study I think it calls for confidence and a straightforward expression of interest in the field. The cast also kind of looks like the study itself though doesn't it. That is understanding and getting near to others(8) via their outer expressions with which they adorn themselves (22).

So the answer looks like the subject itself and also your own engagement with the field. I think this is a really favourable cast for the study because of the 8, because you feel drawn naturally towards this.

It's really important to notice one's natural affinities because when we miss them in youth we can lose direction so here I think your answer is saying 'yes notice your affinity, your attraction and go for it - plain and simple (22.1) and it will be really fascinating but do keep an eye on the fact not all can be known this way (22.3). You may feel shy about proposing to go this route but don't worry about that (22.5) and it's very good to let your natural affinities show and be clear to others (22.6)
 
F

Freedda

Guest
.... i sure as hell know this: first you need to read a person accurately, then you can connect and may or may not find common ground...there are gifts by nature and there are developed skills - if we would only stick to the natural gifts, there would be no improvement of mankind .... but you might right about the moving lines
Wanderer, what I gave is my advice based on how I interpreted the Yi's response to you. I didn't go into much detail, though others may want to. If you find it useful, that's fine. I guess the general advice I'm giving is a sort of 'forest for the tree's type of thing - that you can get so lost in trying to figure someone out, in 'reading' them, that you miss connecting with them. But, if you think that's a useful skill, so be it.

I do think that if we stuck to our 'nature skills' - including our abilities to be compassionate, and inventive, and curious - that it would be a vast improvement to mankind - but just my take on the matter, and not something I read in your Yi reading.

D.
 
Last edited:

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
The study of face reading isn't to connect with people but to discern when people are lying on criminal cases for example - wonder what Buzz Aldrin's face says ?

[video=youtube_share;HGFcC5IZyvs]https://youtu.be/HGFcC5IZyvs?t=6[/video]


Huge reservations over what Trump says, more than reservations he looks like he doubts the sanity of the man, which is reasonable
 
F

Freedda

Guest
The study of face reading isn't to connect with people but to discern when people are lying on criminal cases for example - wonder what Buzz Aldrin's face says ?
I don't disagree. But I wonder, are any special skills really needed here to read any of their faces - Trump's or Aldrin's? I don't think so. And what I said was concerning Wanderer tying his reading to 'human interaction', and not necessarily (or exclusively) for figuring out when people are lying. I think that disconnect is what I was seeing in all the moving lines too - which gets back to my question 'why do you (really) want to develop these skills'?

Best, D.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
I don't disagree. But I wonder, are any special skills really needed here to read any of their faces - Trump's or Aldrin's? I don't think so. And what I said was concerning Wanderer tying his reading to 'human interaction', and not necessarily (or exclusively) for figuring out when people are lying. I think that disconnect is what I was seeing in all the moving lines too - which gets back to my question 'why do you (really) want to develop these skills'?

Best, D.

These skills are used for all sorts of things and they aren't obvious face reading expressions but people are trained to detect the slightest movement of the mouth, these are called 'micro expressions' you or I won't notice on a conscious level.


You ask why would he do it ? Well because it's part of psychology which is a very interesting subject. It is also a very useful subject to have for all sorts of jobs.

Surely it's like someone asking 'why do you do photography ?' I mean I can't see why he wouldn't do it if it interests him.

When he said this

I noticed an increasing interest regarding psychology within the last year. When it comes to human interaction, i primarly focused on language so far

I assume he meant 'human interaction' ie social psychology, is part of the syllabus and he is asking whether to focus on that more. He isn't talking about his own human interaction but human interaction as part of the psychology programme.


If you research it you can see study of micro expressions is quite a specialist area and useful to criminal cases and no doubt other things. This involves detection of tiny tiny face movements.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
Looking at the lines again, I wonder if Yi's saying it won't really have much effect? (Not sure at all about this; just adding to the idea pile - am mostly giving the lines a blank look ;))

Line 1 - um...either don't try learning this from books/videos/etc., just maybe put effort into it yourself? Or, it really won't help you at all, the way you're thinking it will - it won't add anything to your normal, "manual" methods of assessing someone?

Line 3 - what Trojina said (a.k.a. no clue of my own lol)

Line 5 - you may feel "ashamed" (so to speak) if you feel your efforts don't get you very far, but don't be, it's fine. Maybe you will have gained something.

Line 6 - maybe...just deal with people naturally, without adding this to it? Um...possibly it could be imagined that as you're having a conversation with someone, while trying to read their expressions at the same time, the other person might perceive something a bit odd?* You might stare a little too much or something? That could be an "effect," actually - not the effect you had in mind, but...

After all you don't want to come across to people as a police interrogator as Trojina said!
If you research it you can see study of micro expressions is quite a specialist area and useful to criminal cases and no doubt other things. This involves detection of tiny tiny face movements.


* Zhi gua 36 - D.W., a "zhi gua" is the hexagram you get by changing each of your moving lines by itself. So for instance if only line 6 changes, you get hexagram 36. Looking at each line's zhi gua gives you little "mini-readings" within your reading. (This is the only one of the four that I had an idea for.)
 
F

Freedda

Guest
You [freedda] ask why would he do it ? Well because it's part of psychology which is a very interesting subject. It is also a very useful subject to have for all sorts of jobs.
Surely it's like someone asking 'why do you do photography ?' I mean I can't see why he wouldn't do it if it interests him.
Trojina, what I said as a follow up is:

.... I gave is my advice based on how I interpreted the Yi's response to you .... If you find it useful, that's fine. I guess the general advice I'm giving is a sort of 'forest for the tree's type of thing - that you can get so lost in trying to figure someone out, in 'reading' them, that you miss connecting with them. But, if you think that's a useful skill, so be it.
That's what I got from the reading, and if you get something else, that's fine too. I figure it's up to Wanderer as to what he thinks of my advice - and whether it's right or wrong or if it fits or not, or most importantly if they find it useful.
 
Last edited:

der_wanderer

visitor
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
85
Reaction score
2
first: thanks for taking your time to reply

second: so, i get one positive interpretation and one negative interpretation on the same reading

hmm well as i am interested in this so far, i might as well stick with trojinas interpretation and find out if you are right liselle ;-)
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
Well...I wasn't saying "don't," of course. By all means look into it if it interests you. People pursue interests all the time, and stick with some of them and drop others - that's how it should be, with interests.

The only actual caution I was giving was about line 6, but it was a guess. Take it for what it's worth.
 
F

Freedda

Guest
Wanderer, your comment about positive and negative readings reminds me of a sticky in the exploring divination section about positive and negative hexagrams, which you might find interesting if you want to delve further into the Yi. I found it useful, maybe especially if you're interested in psychological insights.

Best, D
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Trojina, what I said as a follow up is:

That's what I got from the reading, and if you get something else, that's fine too. I figure it's up to Wanderer as to what he thinks of my advice - and whether it's right or wrong or if it fits or not, or most importantly if they find it useful -

I thought you misunderstood the proposal. Nothing to do with what you got from the reading but that I felt you didn't quite get the situation, both you and Liselle seemed to think it was a case of him going around staring at people in daily life.

I was trying to say perhaps it is part of a course, you know, part of a social psychology degree - so if it is it's a fairly different animal.
 
Last edited:

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
I thought you misunderstood the proposal. Nothing to do with what you got from the reading but that I felt you didn't quite get the situation, both you and Liselle seemed to think it was a case of him going around staring at people in daily life.

I was trying to say perhaps it is part of a course, you know, part of a social psychology degree - so if it is it's a fairly different animal.

You're right, that's not how I took it, and yes - if this is just part of his schoolwork then that's different.

Although - this was David's (edited: wrong, it was Trojina's question, post no. 7, sorry) original question, actually - what is D.W.'s interest: personal, or school? Someone can take a personal interest in a school subject and turn it into something more - or not, but if all it's about is school and grades then the "effect" and how we see the reading might be different. There's no way to know that unless D.W. tells us.

(However...actually I'm not sure it would change what I said about disconcerting people. Maybe with his friends and family he could tell them he's practicing reading expressions for a class?

Of course as I said I could be all wrong about the line 6 thing. It came from his question (what "effect" would it have), and seeing 36 as the zhi gua, and "white beauty," and just thinking that it might make conversations a bit unnatural. After all how would anyone practice reading expressions without paying higher-than-usual attention to them (a.k.a staring)? That, and just dividing attention between the conversation and watching the person's face. I don't think it takes a lot to notice that something odd is going on with a conversation partner.)
 
Last edited:
F

Freedda

Guest
Or private message? Personally I don't see much point in bringing every minor quibble to the moderators and Hilary, if people could iron it out themselves. (And for what it's worth this seems to me like a very minor quibble.)
I edited my post, above. It's ironed out as far as I can tell. Thanks, D.
 

der_wanderer

visitor
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
85
Reaction score
2
as this causes so much concern:

the interest started due to family and friends related matters - the willingness to see things from a different perspective caused an adaptation of my environment

as i got more into the subject (by interaction and by literature) it became interesting by its own - and yes i am also thinking about getting a second graduate degree (especially as education is almost free - not like in the us ;))

paying attention to the outer world is a by-product of this - which i welcome, but won't go crazy with that

i do know, that watching a stranger for more than 2 seconds becomes akward and from a mathematical stand point i am also aware of the eye contact ratio when it comes to communication

so don't worry liselle, i am not as much of a creep as you might feel ;-)
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
12,856
Reaction score
2,389
I don't think you're a creep! :) And I don't think Yi's saying you are.

I just thought that line 6 - 22.6 zhi 36 - might be a little note of caution from Yi, as I explained. But - and this is important - I feel on shaky ground with the lines in this reading. It was only a guess, and could easily be wrong. So please don't worry about it. Pay the most attention to what you think your reading might be saying. The only one Yi's actually talking to is you.

Here's a little more about hexagram 36, so you understand where I got what I said. 36, Brightness Hidden, has a story behind it, about Prince Ji of the Shang dynasty in ancient China. He was one of the only ones in the Shang court who still had any sense. But he had to hide that, for his own safety. Things went better for him if he pretended to be just like everyone else, to fit in.

So, in a vastly milder way, how could that pertain to a question like yours, I wondered to myself? Well, maybe, if you work on your facial-expression study when you're having normal conversations with people, they might notice something a little odd, for the reasons I explained up above in post no. 18. Line 6 of hexagram 22, "White beauty, no mistake" is literally about not adding dye to cloth to make it allegedly prettier - it's "no mistake" to let it remain white. So, in the context of your question, I thought maybe Yi's advice is not to add facial-expression study to your normal interactions - don't add this, hide your brightness.

Again, I'll stress that could be an utter flight of fancy on my part! If it makes no sense to you, of course ignore it :).
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
1,049
Reading body language (including facial expressions) is a survival skill.

Take a look sometime at Jared Kushners usual expressions: He is a master at hiding his intentions from anyone that is looking. (anyone who doesn't pay attention that is) He has a forced (artificial) softness in the area around his mouth, and eyes that are keenly watching others around him while trying to hide the fact that he is studying them.

105221685-GettyImages-959824898.530x298.jpg
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
The 'forced artificial softness of the mouth' is something I've seen many times and not fully registered it but yes that is the mouth of someone who is feigning a soft neutrality.

Having said that, that alone is never enough to make a judgment of a person by as 22 states. It's a sign, a signal but cannot be taken for the whole truth.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top