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Connecting judgments to images: Hexagram 44

liquidity

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Following up on this thread, I'd like to continue to explore the connections between hexagram judgment texts and image texts. This series will not go in order, though.

Moose Elk suggested in that thread that we look at Hexagram 44 next, and indeed, this is one of the more enigmatic patterns.

Here is the judgment text of 44:

Wilhelm-Baynes: "Coming to Meet. The maiden is powerful. One should not marry such a maiden."
Hilary: "Coupling, the woman is powerful. Do not take this woman."
Legge: "Temptation shows a female who is bold and strong. It will not be good to marry such a female.

And here is the image text:

WB: "Under heaven, wind: the image of Coming to Meet. Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands and proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven."
Hilary: "Below heaven is the wind. Coupling. The prince sends out mandates and commands to the four corners of the earth."
Legge: "The image of wind with the sky above it forms Temptation. The sovereign, in accordance with this, delivers his charges, and promulgates his announcements throughout the four quarters of the kingdom."

Now what could be the connection between the judgment and image texts?

In her latest blog post on this hexagram, Hilary focuses on the trigrams and suggests that the hexagram is about "heaven-powered wind," and that the image suggests an alignment with that to "bring creative change." Though she writes this may not always be possible, since the wind in question is so powerful and untamable.

Rosada suggests that "While disseminating his commands and proclaiming to the four quarters of heaven he does not marry such a maiden [or get detained by her or sidetracked by anything else for that matter]" i.e. "look but don't touch!" The idea is not to get distracted by problematic unconscious/subliminal impulses.

Lavalamp writes that 44 is about "powers of persuasion" and that just like the woman is trying to persuade you to "give her your seed" to bring forth an heir, the prince is trying to convince everyone that his ideas are correct and should be followed.

I personally find the connection that strikes me is that the temptation is some kind of problem which must be warned about. This is clearest in the Legge rendering of the image: "The image of wind with the sky above it forms Temptation. The sovereign, in accordance with this, delivers his charges, and promulgates his announcements throughout the four quarters of the kingdom." There is a dangerous force ("temptation") afoot, and therefore the sovereign does x, y, and z to deal with it -- to get everyone to see the danger and avoid it. If a tornado is coming, then the tornado alert must be sounded. All the relevant parties must be cautioned.

Another connection is that in the judgment text, "the woman is powerful." Misfortune is not indicated -- only the long-term idea of marriage is discouraged. As Hilary suggests, the power may be harnessed. There is the idea in psychology and philosophy of "sublimation" -- of using lower/baser instincts and impulses and energies channeling them towards higher ends. So that though the "woman" may not be marriage material, still something powerful can come of it, as reflected in the 5th line:

WB 44.5: "A melon covered with willow leaves. Hidden lines. Then it drops down to one from heaven."

As Hilary points out, this is an image of pregnancy.

But if this wild energy is going to somehow be sublimated instead of just avoided, if it's to result in a child instead of a problem, it's a matter of using the excitement for communicative purposes.

What are your thoughts/feelings?
 
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Freedda

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For 44, I don't really see much connection between the image text and the oracle text.

Also, how much of a connection either of these have to the hexagram name/title depends on which name you're using. For example, if you call Hex. 44 Dissipation than perhaps the image text is a better fit. But, if you call it Coupling than the oracle text might be a better. And then if you use Cyrille Javary's name, Welcoming the Yin, than I not sure there's much of a fit with either the oracle or image text - though here there is a definite connection to the image: as in the 5 solid lines 'welcoming' the lower broken (yin) line.

For me - for this hexagram (if I had to select between image and oracle text) - the image text seems like is a better fit, in that it describes a situation where Wind is being dissipated into the Heavens, which would be much like the idea of entropy described below. Perhaps: one's good ideas, communication, gentle persistence, and ways of exploring in different directions (as wind might do), are becoming too scattered, too dissipated, etc. .... Or at least that's one way of looking at the imagery (and perhaps a bit different than Hilary's I think).

I find Bradford Hatcher's note on this interesting and perhaps relevant here too:

44.0 As fun as this symbolism is, this hexagram really isn't about the sexes or their battles. Nor is it about empowered or liberated women, even though women who fancy themselves as such will almost invariably seize upon this notion. This is just a metaphor the authors used. It's about the good fight against dissipation or entropy, that describes both life and intelligence. Nothing is more distracting to higher purpose than attraction to the opposite sex. The symbolism was irresistible.

As I noted in the other discussion, the oracle text and the image text were written centuries apart by different authors, each within their own - but different - cultures, customs, beliefs and religions. So in general, it might be hit or miss as to whether or not they connect or carry the same meanings. In general, I don't think they do, which is not to say either is right or wrong - just that they might be giving us different kinds of information - different 'views' - about our situations and readings.


Best, d
 
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moss elk

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And then if you use Cyrille Javary's name, Welcoming the Yin,
I am constantly amazed at the terrible names people give the hexagrams.
Welcoming the Yin is exactly the opposite of 44's meaning.
No! don't welcome this one!

In my never ending critique of James Dekorne: He calls 36 Clouded Perception, when it is in fact about clouding the perception of others.

Just terrible.
 
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Freedda

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I am constantly amazed at the terrible names people give the hexagrams. Welcoming the Yin is exactly the opposite of 44's meaning. .... In my never ending critique of James Dekorne: ....
I don't disagree - my intent was to show connections/disconnections between the oracle and image text and also with the hexagram names, which are quite varied.

I've found that Javary's Gua names are - for me - sometimes spot on, but obviously not all the time, or for all people. I'd be interested to read his version of the I Ching, but unfortunately, it's in French. I do have a copy of his book (in English), Understanding the I Ching (about the Yi, not a translation), which has some good ideas in it (though I've only really skimmed it).

As to James Dekorne's website, a bane for many of us, especially when people cut and past a dozen different versions of the Yi's text - or when they select the most 'positive' or 'spiritual' interpretations - it's like a really bad smorgasbord. :duh:


Best, D.
 
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liquidity

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As to James Dekorne's website, a bane for many of us, especially when people cut and past a dozen different versions of the Yi's text - or when they select the most 'positive' or 'spiritual' interpretations - it's like a really bad smorgasbord. :duh:

What's wrong with the easy availability of so many translations and commentaries? I mean, it's a text that's thousands of years old -- no one's going to be able to get into modern English perfectly. I find DeKorne's website a tremendous resource. Isn't it for the same kinds of reasons you find it informative to look at different names for the hexagrams?
 

moss elk

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What's wrong with the easy availability of so many translations and commentaries?
Nothing wrong in itself, generally speaking. (other than violation of copyright law)

My critiques of that site have to do with the author and his own personal commentaries, his choice of names for hex's, his judgement and comprehension in general, and the selection of religious and new agey works he tries to tie to Yi.
 
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Freedda

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What's wrong with the easy availability of so many translations and commentaries? .... I find DeKorne's website a tremendous resource. Isn't it for the same kinds of reasons you find it informative to look at different names for the hexagrams?
Liquidity, thanks for pointing out my willingness to jump on the 'bash DeKorne's website bandwagon" without more consideration or knowledge about it - similar I suppose how it might be too easy to jump on the Trump- or Hilary-bashing bandwagon.

I did look at the site. My sense is it could be a good resource, though I didn't feel drawn to it myself - since I work a lot with the trigrams and imagery, and prefer Bradford Hatcher's translation, and a few others not on this site as my main sources. (I assume that you used it for your 'Pursue a new career' question in shared readings?)

My main misgiving then is really about how I see it being used. For example, when people cut and paste a dozen pages worth of Yi text - from different translations - and then say, 'what does this mean?' I don't see that being helpful at all, to either the querent or we whom are being asked to interpret it. For me, it's just confusing.

The other caution I have is if people use it to always look for the most positive or spiritual meaning or message in the text - even if it means bypassing the oracle text and imagery altogether in favor of a 'positive' message or outcome - and in doing so, miss the real meaning of what is being conveyed.

As to using the Hexagram names - the Gua Ming - as a resource (which I find here on Bradford Hatcher's site), could it be I'm throwing stones from my glass home? In my defense, I use these names to gain more understanding about the hexagrams - and also the trigrams and their interactions, more as 'hmm ... that's an interesting take on what Mountain is doing here ...."

But I don't feel I over rely on these names, nor do I seek out the most 'positive' (or negative) names simply because it matches what I want the Yi to say.

Which I think gets to the 'heart of the matter' (or one of the 'hearts'), which is, how can we be true to the Yi's meaning while at the same time honoring - and including - our own intelligence and intuition in a reading. Hmmm ... maybe I should do a casting about this very thing and then use DeKorne's site to help with my response ... :bows:

Again, thanks for pointing out my rush to judgement.


Best, David.
 
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Freedda

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I am constantly amazed at the terrible names people give the hexagrams .... In my never ending critique of James Dekorne: He calls 36 Clouded Perception, when it is in fact about clouding the perception of others.
I could see that if you think that 36 is about 'clouding the perception of others,' that Clouded Perception might not be so bad, just that it's about other's clouded perception, not one's own. I'm not drawn to that particular name, however, since with 36 you have Fire below Earth (sans clouds), which reminds me of banking a fire with earth, to make it last until morning. I see it as hiding oneself or reserving one's resources, or one's clarity, light, or passion until the opportune time to make use of them.

Best, D.
 

moss elk

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I see it as hiding oneself or reserving one's resources, or one's clarity, light, or passion until the opportune time to make use of them.

As do I.
And when you do this,
you are clouding the perception of others who may be watching by hiding your intentions, thoughts, feelings, plans.
This is the key element of 36.
The hiding was necessary to preserve the lives of the people named or referred to in the chapter.


I think 'clouded perception' is terrible and problematic.
My critique is that it is a problem of correctly identifying the subjects role in the text. A newbie may read clouded perception and think, "it says I am not seeing clearly" which 36 is not at all about. That situation is described in several other chapters and lines.
 
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Freedda

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... And when you do this, you are clouding the perception of others who may be watching by hiding your intentions, thoughts, feelings, plans.This is the key element of 36. The hiding was necessary to preserve the lives of the people named or referred to in the chapter.

I think 'clouded perception' is terrible and problematic.
Neither Clouded Perception nor clouding the perception of others rings true for me with this Gua, but that's just my take on it - neither right or wrong, just different - but then again, maybe it's my perception that's clouded here! Perhaps next time I get it in a reading, I'll try on your understanding and see how it fits for me. I do agree, however that Clouded Perception is not a name I really like or would use.

Best, d.
 

Trojina

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What's wrong with the easy availability of so many translations and commentaries? I mean, it's a text that's thousands of years old -- no one's going to be able to get into modern English perfectly. I find DeKorne's website a tremendous resource. Isn't it for the same kinds of reasons you find it informative to look at different names for the hexagrams?

It's a nuisance here for reasons David gave

As to James Dekorne's website, a bane for many of us, especially when people cut and past a dozen different versions of the Yi's text - or when they select the most 'positive' or 'spiritual' interpretations - it's like a really bad smorgasbord.

plus Moss Elk says it infringes copyright law, I'm not sure of that.

What I do know is effectively de Korne is being credited with the translations of a whole host of translators. Some people don't write who the translator is just de Korne but de Korne is just a man who collected interpretations on to his website with no forum so people come here with a right old hotch potch of unnamed uncredited translations and it's annoying.


What's wrong with the easy availability of so many translations and commentaries? I mean, it's a text that's thousands of years old -- no one's going to be able to get into modern English perfectly. I find DeKorne's website a tremendous resource.

But there are still translators working on the I Ching now. All those translations took a lot of hard work and dedication so for people just to cite deKorne as a source is annoying when he has translated nothing just written a commentary.

The worse thing is when people collect the whole lot of translations and post them all with no credits except for naming deKorne who has done no translation. That's like just crediting any random person with the work of translating the I Ching.

The book may be thousands of years old but the translators aren't. As I said there are still people working hard on the translation now.
 

Trojina

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Well having seemingly bought the thread to a dead end it seemed a tragedy not to post this video on this topic that Hilary recently linked to in Friend's Notes all about the Image and such

[video=youtube_share;F6B_Oerq4MU]https://youtu.be/F6B_Oerq4MU?t=2[/video]
 

chingching

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"Nothing is more distracting to higher purpose than attraction to the opposite sex. The symbolism was irresistible" from the BH text quoted

yikes!

This just sounds like the daytime complaining about night, or rather someone looking to get to heaven complaining about the wind.

or the head complaining it has to have a body.

When you consider the earth is a sphere traveling the ecliptic around a sphere in an endless, bottomless universe, which way is higher? There is only a higher when you reference everything to an earthbound consciousness that goes only so far as the core of our our planet or more commonly to the direct experience of the surface of the earth against our feet. Think wider I say.

"It's about the good fight against dissipation or entropy, that describes both life and intelligence."

Deary me. Dissipation and entropy are about the good fight against order. But this is just me looking sideways at the meaning, not at BH's translation because I see he is just re-wording what these old old old blokes were thinking about the 44 of life.

The wind, the night, attraction - unseen and blinding. Tornados! Kali, Medea, Lillith, Eris, Witches. I like Tornado better.

Hilary's lil vid connects the text and image wonderfully, although still in favour of order as the goal, or the goal as order, how to impregnate the world with your will - because that is what a good translator would conclude, because that is the advice of 44, because it was written by people operating out of a particular cosmology, ideology and cultural structure. I think the prince's mandate can be updated and I like that modern contributors have given that a go, even if their try is a bit clumsy.

The wind is just the wind, it moves things, brings disorder for the opportunity to expand and reorder. To become re-organised and possibly more fully integrated. But not necessarily.

My favourite thing about the wind, strong winds, stormy winds, is that you can scream into them and the wind doesn't flinch, scold or retreat. You can scream, cry and rage into the wind's strength; it can take it. It can dissipate all that was pent up, and one can be relieved. ;)

How the prince used it for his mandate is useful advice, but is still about using the wild for creating order, for personal will and achievement. I prefer to think that the prince used the wild uncertainty of wind in hope of getting a man date, leaving heteronormativity behind.

The wind is like the untameable and instinctual within and between us.

That's my effort for connecting this text to image, although I will say I mostly joined in to dismantle :) :) Now the wind is taking me away

nb. It's so interesting the side conversation of Dekorne's website, almost like a vignette of 44 itself; both the discussion about the website and the website itself. forces of order and disorder at play. A prince spreading a mandate, using other people's seeds, and gaining attribution as a result. At once dissipating those individual's efforts and gaining power from it being re-ordered under his name. People here on the forum quoting his name, and the educated calvary coming in the dissipate the reference to Dekorne to reveal he is no author, but rather a curator or librarian.
 

charly

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The wind, the night, attraction - unseen and blinding. Tornados! Kali, Medea, Lillith, Eris, Witches. I like Tornado better.

Hilary's lil vid connects the text and image wonderfully, although still in favour of order as the goal, or the goal as order, how to impregnate the world with your will - because that is what a good translator would conclude, because that is the advice of 44, because it was written by people operating out of a particular cosmology, ideology and cultural structure. I think the prince's mandate can be updated and I like that modern contributors have given that a go, even if their try is a bit clumsy.
...
How the prince used it for his mandate is useful advice, but is still about using the wild for creating order, for personal will and achievement.
...
The wind is like the untameable and instinctual within and between us.
That's my effort for connecting this text to image, although I will say I mostly joined in to dismantle :) :) Now the wind is taking me away
...
Thanks, Chinching:

I will post my own intent to match Judgement with Image. Of course, I don't believe that the image speaks of a King or Prince, if not, why shoud not use WANG, king or JUN, noble?

All the best,

Charly
 

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