Continuing this series of posts, I'd like to examine the text and image of Hexagram 28.

Here is the judgment text of 28:

Wilhelm-Baynes: "Preponderance of the Great. The ridgepole sags to the breaking point. It furthers one to have somewhere to go. Success."
Hilary: "Great Exceeding, the ridgepole warps. Fruitful to have a direction to go. Creating success."
Legge: "Critical Mass depicts a weak beam. Under such conditions it is advantageous to move in any direction whatever. Success is indicated."

And here is the image text:

WB: "The lake rises above the trees: the image of Preponderance of the Great. Thus the superior man, when he stands alone, is unconcerned, and if he has to renounce the world, he is undaunted."
Hilary: "The lake submerges the tree. Great Exceeding. A noble one stands alone without fear, Withdraws from the time without sadness."
Legge: "The image of trees beneath a marsh forms Critical Mass. The superior man, in accordance with this, fearlessly stands alone, and stays retired from the world without regret."

To me, it almost seems here as if judgment and image are contradictory. The judgment says: go somewhere. Move in a direction. The image says: it's ok to stand unconcerned, renounce or retire from the world, withdraw from the time. What gives?

The image texts are an interesting comparison to say, that of 47... where, in WB's translation, it suggests "Thus the superior man stakes his life on following his will."

Could it be that the 'any direction' in which one moves in 28 is something which happens outside of human control, and the best that can happen is that the person stands undaunted?

I think I may have mentioned this in another thread about 'connecting judements to images', but these two parts of what many of us now consider a cohesive whole, are in fact writings that are separated by at least a few centuries, maybe more - and I suspect that they were never meant to mean the same, or at least not always. That said ....

To me the 'advice' here seems different, but not necessarily opposite: to 'stand alone and undaunted' and to step 'back from the world without sorrow' (from the image) doesn't at all preclude that 'the ridgepole bends' and it being worthwhile to have somewhere to go (from the oracle text).

Also, at least in this case you seem to have a Gua with two images: where the Wing's image looks at the trigrams; Lake above, and Wind/Wood (or the Trees) below; whereas the Oracle looks at the lines - two broken lines on either end of the four solids in the center - so you have a ridgepole that is too heavy in the middle so it sags ....

But here both the image and oracle are describing a precarious situation: one where the waters are rising above the tree line (the image), and the other shows a sagging ridgepole (the oracle).

And ... regardless if I were in a house, standing under this sagging ridgepole; or if I was caught in the lake's rising waters, I'd be inclinded to 'step back' from, or get out of both of these situations (or perhaps to step back or get away from a particular mindset or worldview?). And for both, I'd certainly think it would actually be better to have somewhere else to go!

Best, D.

Freedda said:

I think I may have mentioned this in another thread about 'connecting judements to images', but these two parts of what many of us now consider a cohesive whole, are in fact writings that are separated by at least a few centuries, maybe more - and I suspect that they were never meant to mean the same, or at least not always. That said ....

Click to expand...

Yes, you’ve mentioned that. Nevertheless I'm still interested in the possible connections or lack thereof... I feel Yi should be a coherent, integrated intelligence.

To me the 'advice' here seems different, but not necessarily opposite: to 'stand alone and undaunted' and to step 'back from the world without sorrow' (from the image) doesn't at all preclude that 'the ridgepole bends' and it being worthwhile to have somewhere to go (from the oracle text).

Also, at least in this case you seem to have a Gua with two images: where the Wing's image looks at the trigrams; Lake above, and Wind/Wood (or the Trees) below; whereas the Oracle looks at the lines - two broken lines on either end of the four solids in the center - so you have a ridgepole that is too heavy in the middle so it sags ....

But here both the image and oracle are describing a precarious situation: one where the waters are rising above the tree line (the image), and the other shows a sagging ridgepole (the oracle).

And ... regardless if I were in a house, standing under this sagging ridgepole; or if I was caught in the lake's rising waters, I'd be inclinded to 'step back' from, or get out of both of these situations (or perhaps to step back or get away from a particular mindset or worldview?). And for both, I'd certainly think it would actually be better to have somewhere else to go!

Best, D.

Click to expand...

Very interesting points. One issue is that the ruler of the hexagram is .4 ("The ridgepole is braced. Good fortune. If there are ulterior motives, it is humiliating." -WB). This actually suggests something more in the spirit of the Wing image -- a dauntless standing than a moving away to some other direction.

I'll note that the lines, too, seem to alternate between the Wing and judgment images you mention. For example, in .6, it seems like it's about the rising waters of the Wing image ("One must go through the water. It goes over one's head. Misfortune. No blame." -WB)

liquidity said:

Yes, you’ve mentioned that (the very long, and sorted history of the Yi). Nevertheless I'm still interested in the possible connections or lack thereof... I feel Yi should be a coherent, integrated intelligence.

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Hello Liquidity. A few thoughts: for me what seems true is that there are 'possible connections and /or a lack thereof.' That's what rings true for me with the Oracle/Image connections. And I'm okay with that ambiguity.

I suppose it might be a desired goal for the Yi - as we know it now - to have 'a coherent, integrated intelligence.' But given that there is a span of 500 years between the creating of the oracle texts and the image texts, that's not something I'm going to hold my breathe waiting for!

I'd actually expect that these 'parts' would not be integrated, given that they come from such different times, and different 'cultures' (e.g. different rulers and their requirements and expectations, different dynasties, morals, religions ... ). But that's just me. And I'm fine living with the possibility that parts of the Yi might not be integrated or coherent.

And I even wonder at times - did the Yi's (oracle and lines) original authors perhaps add a bit of mystery, confusion, and 'non-coherence' into the Oracle? Perhaps as a way to get us away from 'inside the box' / 'stay inside the lines' (no pun intended, but if it works ... ) thinking? And if this is even slightly true, to then look to much later additions (i.e. the image text) to be part of a coherent whole, when the original might not have been meant to be coherent ...???

liquidity said:

One issue is that the ruler of the hexagram is .4 ("The ridgepole is braced. Good fortune. If there are ulterior motives, it is humiliating." -WB). This actually suggests something more in the spirit of the Wing image ....

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In an eariler post - that I believe started off these oracle/image explorations - you said that they are about the connections 'between the oracle/judgment text and the image text'. But now you are adding another dimension, the lines, and also what you consider to be the 'ruling' line.

Obviously, you can make any connections you want. However, you're now adding in the idea / concept of a 'ruling line' which was not at all a part of the original Zhouyi (oracle and line text). So, this makes me wonder, do we find 'a coherent, integrated intelligence' by continuing to add on to the original Yi centuries of concepts, guidelines, rules, prejudices, etc.?

When we talk about a very long history of authorship (many, many centuries), we have to assume multiple authors, all of whom - or at least many of whom - had their own misinterpretations, errors in judgement, varied levels of expertise and understand, jealousies, pride, imposed rules, disfunctional relationships, religous, moral and cultural prejudices ... and so forth. And perhaps this idea of 'ruling lines' is a child of this whole jumble?

liquidity said:

I'll note that the lines, too, seem to alternate between the Wing and judgment images you mention. For example, in .6, it seems like it's about the rising waters of the Wing image ("One must go through the water. It goes over one's head. Misfortune. No blame." -WB)

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Again, to look for connections might always be a useful quest, but adding in the lines doesn't seem to fit with what you were originally looking at. Also, would this 'formula' of the lines alternating between the oracle/images apply to all the hexagrams? And if it doesn't, how does adding in another variable add to a 'cohesive whole'?

All this is to say - I'm okay letting the oracle be the oracle and the images be the images, and if they match up or not, either way is rokay with me. And, also as I said, to look for connections might never be a bad thing - I just don't know if it's useful to make things fit or cohere when they don't.

I don't think the Yi was ever meant to be about forcing 'round' images into 'square' oracles, or about imposing 'ruling lines' onto hexagrams that for 500 years never needed a ruler - but it seems that over many centuries that's what some people have been trying to do.

All the best, David.