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flashlight

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Hi folks,

Without going into details, I've been informed I need surgery. It would be open stomach, impossible by laparoscopy. I am told if I don't have it, the chance of cancer in the coming few years is certain.

I had some time between 11:25 am and 11:45 am (UTC+1) today to ask a few questions in a calm and focused frame of mind.

Please forgive me for not proposing interpretations, it is just too hard for me to have any impartiality here; also, I did not want to influence others' readings. I'm not basing medical decisions on the Yi's answers, but insight is always useful. Here goes:

- what should I know about this surgeon? 26.1 > 18
- what should I know about this surgery? 62.4 > 15
- what should I know about my recovery process? 51.5>17
- what would be the consequences of NOT having the surgery? 33.4>53
- what would be the consequences of having this surgery? 22.1.2.3.4>64

What's interesting is that I rarely get only one changing line in readings. Here, I kept getting only one (isn't that in itself significant?) until I asked my last question, which is pretty close to the second one in many ways (Yi impatient with me or??)

Thank you immensely for any help and insights you can offer.:hug:
 

rosada

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26.1 There is something beneath the surface that needs fixing.
18. Fixing it.

I see these hexagrams as saying you can have confidence in your surgeon as he seems to know how to heal your issues even before they become a problem.
 
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diamanda

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So sorry to hear about this flashlight. From your casts, I can't tell if indeed you need this surgery or not. However, if you do need it, I wouldn't choose this particular surgeon. Is there any way you can get a second opinion from another surgeon - so that someone else would perform it?
 

flashlight

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wow -- two completely different interpretations.
without changing hospitals, to one that doesn't know me at all and is not THE reference center for these specific pathologies, I can't see how i can change surgeons. Haven't met her yet anyway, so have no personal opinion on her. Also, the decision in favor of surgery is made by a team, not just one doctor, and the surgeries are allocated among the surgeons on the team.
what does one do when two interpretations on the same reading are diametrically opposed?
 
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flashlight

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Asked a clarification question

How is this surgeon the right one for me?
31.4 > 39

If 39 is the resulting hex, it doesn't sound good.
If 39 is the back drop, it fits with the current context. Recovery would be tough, I live alone and need help. I may have a friend coming from abroad to help.
 

angelatlantis14

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Hi Flashlight,

sorry to hear about your situation. I've had a similar one earlier this year, so I can empathize with you!

As for your readings I am somewhat puzzled by 26.1 -> 18 for your enquirey about the surgeon. 26 sounds good, like this person has great power to heal your health problem. But line 1 is about as clear as you can get for a warning, and if I had it would see it as don't go there. Similarly the relating Hex 18 could be both a warning of ruin if you go forward with this surgeon, or a statement of rebuilding after ruin, like the surgeon fixing what is currently wrong with you.
In this situation I would ask for more clarification, but more open-ended than you did - you asked "How is this surgeon the right one for me?" assuming that they are - which I do not think is yet clear.

Purely based on your other readings (I am not in any way qualified for medical advice, any doctor can do inifinitely better than I can) there seems to be a leaning towards not going ahead with the surgery NOW (does not exclude doing it at a later date):

Hex 62.4 "No blame. He meets him without passing by. Going brings danger. One must be on guard. Do not act. Be constantly persevering."

Hex 33.4 speaks of voluntary retreat that is beneficial for the superior man (maybe meaning an informed patient?) and its relating Hex 53 speaks of gradual improvement, so maybe your condition will improve by itself?

All in all, I would take these readings as a suggestion to get a second medical appointment so you have more information about the whole process.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck!

maui
 

flashlight

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Thanks Maui. hmm tough one.. Getting a second opinion on a not-run-of-the-mill procedure is a challenge. Certainly could not be at the hospital where I have been followed all these years. Such surgeries to be successful are a combination of the surgeon AND the center where the surgery takes place. And, no, unfortunately, my condition will not improve by itself. Rather the reverse :(

If this makes any difference, I am not planning on having the surgery until early fall. Too much to organize in any event....

PS: I'm at a loss as to how to ask a more open question without falling into the yes/no trap. All ideas welcomed!
 

flashlight

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12h45-13h UTC +1

Broadened the context (only 2 other hospitals as possible options) and questions

Tell me about Hospital A? 43.3.4.5.6 > 41
Tell me about Hospital B? 62.3> 16
Tell me about Hospital C? 64.4>4
Tell me more about the surgeon in question? 59.5>4
What would be the effect of having surgery in city 2 rather than city 1? 12.1.2.5>38

I don't think the resulting "4s" means stop asking me questions.
I think it does reflect there are very many things I do not know, that I am at the beginning of the learning and deciding process. Also that in any surgery, no surgeon knows everything for sure before the patient is gut open on the table. Would you all agree?
 

angelatlantis14

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Hi Flashlight,

no I also don't think that the Hex 4 means "stop asking questons". I would like you, take them rather to be that there are still things unknown, things that are relevant to your decision. Its true that even doctors often knowe only when they see what the problem really is.
From your hospital readings I like C the best, especially as both the primary hex 64 and the relating Hex 4 seem to express that thought: a good outcome is in sight, but if not utmost care is taken (maybe by the doctors in making the diagnosis and in you in insisting on careful diagnosis and asking all pertinent questions) it still may go wrong. Hex 4 confirms in that case that there actually things still to be found out!

The other two hospital readings to me seem not exactly encouraging...but if it is possible this should not keep you from going to a consultation there and forming your own impression.

59.5 -> 4 is a puzzle to me, especially the 59.5 part. It seems to denote some sort of crisis and catharsis, but not sure how that pertains to your question, unfortunately.

the effect of going to city 2 could be that it is a release of a longstanding blockage through line 5. Line 2 could be an encouragement to not take the path of least resisitance, which could in turn again point to the need from your side to be meticulous in preparation and evaluation of your options. I know that this is hard when are already not well and have great worries...but that is what I woud read here.
 

flashlight

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Thank you for taking the time and sharing your insights, Maui (and if per chance you chose that name because you are on that island, i'd be green with envy!)

Just in case others pop in, I'll wait a bit before revealing which hospital and city are which :)
 

angelatlantis14

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Actually I chose that name because I spent once a great holiday there :)
Yes, I hope too that others will share their insights as there is a lot where I could use some pointers from others! In the meantime, take care!
 

rosada

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Going back to the first question, "What do I need to know about this surgeon?"

Hexagram 26.1
Danger is at hand it furthers one to desist.
-Wilhelm

Is this line a comment about the surgeon or advice for you? As it is the first line and coupled with the fact you have not yet met the surgeon, I'm thinking it is a reference to you, maybe a caution not to build up worry before you have even met or maybe advice and the fact that you should not continue something else, like don't continue to put off taking care of this matter - assuming that you have been putting it off. Or perhaps there is some other action you need to stop, is there any activity that you need to desist? Like smoking or unhealthy eating habits? Or maybe just that you need to stop trying to second guess yourself.

26's image advises the benefits of studying "the many lessons of antiquity" which makes me think that when you do meet this woman you must not be shy about asking all you want to know about your condition and what experiences and what results she's had with this kind of surgery.

The first line often indicates that one needs time to build something up before moving forward - like building up your strength, or perhaps its a reference to the fact that time must pass, the operation isn't scheduled until the fall, or just getting to know the surgeon better before you commit.

Hexagram 18.WORK on what has been spoiled HAS SUPREME SUCCESS, so I see this as a very positive omen that this surgeon will be able to be effective.

What more do you need to know? 31.4 says perseverance brings good fortune and that remorse disappears. If a man is agitated in mind, his thoughts go hither and thither.
I read this to mean this doctor knows what she is doing so don't over think it.

All together I think the I Ching is advising you for what to look for when you talk to this surgeon. Does she take the time to answer your questions? Does she sound confident that she knows the risks but also that she knows how to handle them? But maybe 34.1 - 39 is also a warning that no matter how clear and confident she is you may still feel the frustration described in 39.

39's image advises that when there is Obstruction the superior man turns his attention to himself and molds his character.
I see this as meaning that when you've asked all your questions if you still find your mind going hither and thither, then rather than trying to find other doctors or greater reassurance, you should try to put your mind at rest - maybe do things like meditation and visualization.
 

angelatlantis14

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Hi Rosada,

interesting - your take on the reading is somewhat different than mine, but definitely not less valid :)) (maybe more, depending on the outcome) Hex 18 is a difficult one for me, but as you pointed out, its speaks not not only of ruin but also of supreme success. Given line 1 of Hex 26 I'd have a hard time to see this as either a clear endorsement or clear warning, all together. I hope it works all out for Flashlight!
 

flashlight

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First, many thanks Rosada, for your exhaustive post. I have a lot to ponder. It remains disturbing, for lack of a better word, that you v. Diamanda/Maui have such different takes.

Yes, I have not been rushing to surgery, there was no need to until now. And yes, I need to stop smoking which will not be easy, very high dependence (appointment with addiction MD made, a first for me). And yes, I probably do need to stop second-guessing myself, I do that very well.
I contacted someone I know, a physician in this large teaching hospital, to see if they can find out more about this surgeon. Also, if they can free up their work schedule, they will come with me at the consult with the surgeon. 4 ears are better than 2 :) The support is a great comfort in any event.
As to visualization, I have been playing PacMan in my mind for years with this tumor. I had hoped it would eradicate it, but perhaps I should be happy that in 5 years it has only grown 5 mm and maybe my PacMan tournements had something to do with it :)
 
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diamanda

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I contacted someone I know, a physician in this large teaching hospital, to see if they can find out more about this surgeon. Also, if they can free up their work schedule, they will come with me at the consult with the surgeon. 4 ears are better than 2 :) The support is a great comfort in any event.
A superb idea, well done!
 

rosada

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Finding out more about the surgeon seems to me to be a perfect response to 26.1. The “danger” described here comes from moving blindly ahead when the situation calls for a more conscious informed awareness. The fan Yao, 18.1, is a very positive indication that problems can be neutralized without them ever becoming major issues. This along with your getting 31.4 in reference to what you should know about the surgeon, encourages me to think that once you know more your concerns will be put to rest. Youll know if this doctor is the right one because you’ll recognize they give you a strong sense of clarity and confidence.
 

angelatlantis14

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A superb idea, well done!

yes, agree, a physician will be able to give you good information, and if they come with you, that is a very good thing.
Also for the readings, it is good to remember that I at least am not an experienced I ching reader, just a person who consults the I ching. So everything I have written is just my take and what I would read from your castings. What is a lot more important is a) the opinion of trained doctorts, and, even more your own intuitive feeling about the decision.

best wishes

maui
 

flashlight

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Thanks, ladies.
Also, I'm very intuitive about people and the only time I err is when I don't listen to my first gut reactions . I've not met this surgeon or even heard her voice. Just a few email exchanges. That she answered (OK, not exhaustively) and quickly is already, in the medical culture here, quite a good point in her favor. I'll be meeting her in a little over a month and I will turn my instinct volume on high and listen to it :)

By the way, re my previous post:
Hosp A and B were in a city closer to me (where the state health insurance wants me to go and where they'd pick up travel in and out of hospital. If I go to Hosp C (the one that has been following me for years and where this surgeon is), the hefty semi-medical transport costs would be out of pocket (to fight an administration when one is fighting for one's life is just.. pathetic). "Ya'll" seemed to prefer Hosp C, which is the reference center for this kind of thing.
 

rosada

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Just a quick comment that I enjoy and get value from all the different interpretations, particularly the ones that reveal a viewpoint different from my own. It’s good to share our alternative universes!
 

flashlight

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Usually, I do too, Rosada, especially when two proficient readers hold different interpretations. But this time, on such a serious question, I find it rather unsettling!
 

rosada

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Yeah, for sure. But the good news is nobody on this thread is trying to force their interpretation on anyone or belittle anyone for their ideas which makes it a whole lot easier to consider opposing opinions and possibly discover fresh insights. Which is great for learning, but yeah, not so great for the one seeking guidance. Curious thing is - and I think this is not an uncommon experience - when I first started using the I Ching the answers seemed so much clearer, so much more obvious. Maybe my questions back then were not so complex but now it seems instead of giving direct advice the I Ching just sort of helps clarify the situation but still expects me to figure out what to do. Like here with your question about the surgeon, one might see "Danger!" and immediately think, "Wow, don't use this doctor!" But that's just what I get if I only read the line. As become more familiar with the I Ching I see 26's image advising "The superior man becomes familiar with sayings of antiquity" the then the message becomes, "There is danger in just blindly going forward trusting to luck or a coin toss. It's important for you to discuss this with people who have experience." Like the I Ching is saying, "the issue is more than just whether the surgeon is any good, it's also a wonderful opportunity for you to learn how to speak up and ask your doctor questions." Ugh. I wish the I Ching would just give me the simple clear answers.
 

flashlight

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It's funny, my first reaction at 26.1 and the surgeon was danger > the tumor is getting nasty > surgeon wages great taming to cut out the corruption.
Always the question whether the resulting hex is the backdrop/context or the outcome. And I wish there was a more certain consensus on that. I suppose one should be consistent in how reads, I surely am not :). Having 18 be the context made perfect sense to me in this reading. The corruption being the tumor.
 

rosada

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Yes, that' exactly what I mean. Your first reaction that 26.1 wasn't necessarily an answer to your question about the surgeon but more like a snapshot of your situation - 26.1 a dangerous tumor that must not be allowed to continue, that needed to be cut out.The hexagram - at first glance anyway - didn't seem to be about the surgeon, but a picture of the situation. this often happens with me. The hexagrams I get seem to not so much advise me as what to do but rather give me a picture of the situation or my attitude so I then based on knowing that, I then have to decide what action to take. Like just recently I posted the hexagrams I got when I asked if today would be a good day for a yard sale. Back last week when I asked it was warm and sunny but the weather prediction was for rain. The hexagrams seemed very encouraging - 48.6 - 57, a well that all could drink from and a gentle wind, perhaps representing yard sale items being distributed - and not a syllable about storm clouds. But I recognized that these hexagrams were mirroring my hopes and the fact they didn't seem to take the slightest reference to the negative weather predictions made me very suspicious. Like the I Ching was saying, "Do you really believe the weather predictions for 3 inches of rain are going to be this totally wrong and it will suddenly be a cloudless sky like this?" Anyway, I cancelled the sale and sure enough we got buckets of rain today and thank heavens I cancelled. So that's yet another way you can look at the hexagrams, are they giving you a picture of reality or are they mirroring your fantasy? I don't know. I think you're right that consistence seems to play a role. Like you decide "I'm going to take all predictions literally!" and see if that makes them more clear. Maybe there are other rituals one should incorporate to get clearer answers - burning incense of always facing South or whatever. But I think the important thing for now anyway is to try to be calm, neutral and to be aware of those first impressions. And then to ask Hilary!
 

flashlight

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"So that's yet another way you can look at the hexagrams, are they giving you a picture of reality or are they mirroring your fantasy?"

That's why I don't trust myself with my readings, and on the questions that really matter to me, post here. Because all too often, I am afraid that my interpretation is just a reflection of what I want it to say, or what I fear or or or. And after a couple of weeks of being numb at the news and flipping into project mode (organization, as best as I can), gotta say, I'm getting scared about this surgery, which I know is high risk (and high risk if I don't have it too).
 

flashlight

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Circling back...

Did a 17 hour RT to meet with this surgeon yesterday. I had had feedback she is both highly competent and very nice. And she had been nice on our two email exchanges. I expected the consult to be at LEAST an hour and I was out of there in 20 minutes. It was a pointless, exhausting and expensive foray. Nothing that could not have been handled by phone or skype, but that is how things are done here (and particularly at this hospital), I've had the situation with the gastro who follows me before. Living far away now, it royally pissed me off. But that's not the surgeon's fault.
What is on her (and is a result of the medical education here) is total absence of "bedside manner". Not even a hello. I walk in and she quips " Sit down. How old are you?". I replied but in my brain thought, yo babe, you have my file under my nose: know the person not just the images of the tumor.
I had two pages of questions. She seemed so irritated after I asked the first 2 that I gave up on the others (I had done so much research, I knew the answers but would have prefered discussing things with her). I know the medical culture here is of the "they are god, we should just be docile" matrix, but that's just not me.
I understand surgeons have to keep a certain distance to do the work they do, and she's probably more warm and fuzzy once she has you on the table, but still.
I have no doubts at all about her competence and that she'd do this surgery well.
The glitch too is that if operated there, I would have to return one month post op and every three months thereafter. it is a logistical nightmare and a huge expense not picked up by insurance.
She gave me the name of another surgeon who did his residency in her service and who is now at Hospital A (page 1 of this thread). i have to do some digging, put some questions to the I and go meet him and see if the vibes are better. It would be geographically a heck of a lot more convenient, even if in an ideal world I'd prefer to be operated where i have been monitored for years and which is THE reference center..
Tough decisions to make. it's like Russian roulette + administrative consequences!
 
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diamanda

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Her manners sound horrible! I hope you soon find an appropriate surgeon with better manners.
 

angelatlantis14

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Hi Flashlight,
it does not sound like this surgeon is a good fit for you. If she does not treat you with respect and care even in a consultation, I highly doubt she will be a different person once she gets to work. Someone in a different thread said not too long ago (sorry don't remember who it was) that how you do anything is how you do everything, and I agree with that.
Going back to the readings we had earlier, I think we all agreed (even though we disagreed on many other things :)) that meticulos planning and good information are key to a good decision by you. Well this doctor does not gtive that good information, so makes it impossible for you to make an informed decision. In this case, I'd stay clear of this option.
I hope you have better experiences with another doctor!

best wishes

maui
 

flashlight

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Thanks Diamanda and Maui :)

I'm seeing the chap she pointed me to next week. Crossing fingers and toes. He is at Hospital A, which nobody seemed to like :). this one is only a half day trip for a 20 minute consult LOL!
 
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diamanda

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Hi @flashlight, I came across this thread and thought to ask you, how did it all go in the end? Which hospital did you choose? I hope you're doing fine 🧡
 

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