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Thread: How to help people? 36.1 > 15 and 33.4.6 > 39

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    Default How to help people? 36.1 > 15 and 33.4.6 > 39

    I teach/counsel/coach people on meditation and other spiritual matters. I asked how best to help people and got

    (all translations by Legge)
    Hexagram 36.1 Clouded Perception > Hexagram 5 Temperance
    .1: " The first line, dynamic, shows its subject with clouded perception, flying, but with drooping wings. When the superior man is about his business he may go for three days without eating. Wherever he goes, the people there may speak derisively of him."
    Interesting. So the idea of traveling, meeting different people, and perhaps not worrying much about money for a while (the eating?). But to tell the truth I was confused by this reading.

    But there is the general theme of, of course, hiding my light, rather than displaying it prominently, which is odd, because I feel like I have been putting myself out there more recently, and it's been good.

    So I asked for a restatement/clarification and got:
    Hexagram 33.4.6 Retreat > Hexagram 39 Impasse
    .4: "The fourth line, dynamic, shows its subject retiring notwithstanding his likings. In a superior man this will lead to good fortune. An inferior man cannot attain to this.
    .6: "The sixth line, dynamic, shows its subject retiring in a noble way. It will be advantageous in every respect.
    Retiring? Retreating? In a way this has some connection to the hiding of my light of 36, but it seems to contradict the traveling portion of 36.1.

    Any ideas on what this is all suggesting I might do? Thanks.

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    That you should retreat from this idea ?

    I teach/counsel/coach people on meditation and other spiritual matters. I asked how best to help people and got
    Retreat from doing that. It may seem weird right now but in hindsight it may make more sense perhaps. Perhaps it is actually draining you and you need to get distance from the whole role ? (36.1)

    The 33>39 speaks for itself, it's a struggle, retreat, stop banging your head against a brick wall ? If you are the one that needs help, and the 33>39 makes it look that way, helping others doesn't help you. It looks to me like you need to help yourself now before others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojina View Post
    That you should retreat from this idea ?



    Retreat from doing that. It may seem weird right now but in hindsight it may make more sense perhaps. Perhaps it is actually draining you and you need to get distance from the whole role ? (36.1)

    The 33>39 speaks for itself, it's a struggle, retreat, stop banging your head against a brick wall ? If you are the one that needs help, and the 33>39 makes it look that way, helping others doesn't help you. It looks to me like you need to help yourself now before others.
    Thanks! Hrm, interesting. Could be, but I must say it doesn't feel like that. Indeed, if anything I'm coming off of a period where I had more or less retreated from it for a while, or at least receded somewhat, and now I'm getting more engaged and that feels good.

    I wonder if the 33 could be interpreted in somewhat more unconventional ways. For example, maybe it means literally teaching at various spiritual retreats, perhaps in different areas ... particularly in light of the sense of impasse (39) I've gotten in the places I've been trying to teach so far? And that might again go with the travel motif of 36.1.

    So I wonder if it's saying: "retreat from the places which don't value or understand you," "retreat from the places where it feels like a battle or you can't get forward traction easily."

    I asked, for example, about approaching a lot more yoga studios for the possibility of doing workshops (something I haven't done much of) and got
    45.4 Gathering Together > 8 Union
    45.4 is an interesting and somewhat ambiguous line.
    WB translates it as: "Great good fortune. No blame." but Legge translates it, in line with the Confucian commentators, "The fourth line, dynamic, shows its subject in such a state that, if he is greatly fortunate, he will receive no blame."

    Most translators, seem, however, to think of it as something good, and 45 as a whole is of course positive for spiritual meetings and the nourishment of others spiritually.

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    36.1-15. Maybe this is a caution for you to not get caught up in other people’s stuff?

    33-39. Maybe warning not to let your clients become too dependent on you?

    So the best way for you to help people is to not take on their burdens. Teach them to fish and move on.

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    Thanks! Hrm, interesting. Could be, but I must say it doesn't feel like that. Indeed, if anything I'm coming off of a period where I had more or less retreated from it for a while, or at least receded somewhat, and now I'm getting more engaged and that feels good.


    If it feels easy and natural and enlivening that's the same as feeling good but is that feeling the measure of whether people are helped ? I'm not very clear about that.

    I wonder if the 33 could be interpreted in somewhat more unconventional ways. For example, maybe it means literally teaching at various spiritual retreats, perhaps in different areas ... particularly in light of the sense of impasse (39) I've gotten in the places I've been trying to teach so far? And that might again go with the travel motif of 36.1.
    Possibly, if that's how it seems to you.

    So I wonder if it's saying: "retreat from the places which don't value or understand you," "retreat from the places where it feels like a battle or you can't get forward traction easily."
    I don't know, it depends on how you feel about the whole thing.

    I asked, for example, about approaching a lot more yoga studios for the possibility of doing workshops (something I haven't done much of) and got
    45.4 Gathering Together > 8 Union
    45.4 is an interesting and somewhat ambiguous line.
    WB translates it as: "Great good fortune. No blame." but Legge translates it, in line with the Confucian commentators, "The fourth line, dynamic, shows its subject in such a state that, if he is greatly fortunate, he will receive no blame."

    Most translators, seem, however, to think of it as something good, and 45 as a whole is of course positive for spiritual meetings and the nourishment of others spiritually.
    I guess I have difficulty with the idea of an individual setting out to nourish others spiritually because how would they know when they are doing that ? Who is to say what nourishing others spiritually is and how do you know when you've done it. To my mind being a yoga/meditation teacher is enough in itself, it doesn't come with spiritual authority does it ?

    Possibly I am confused by the question

    liquidity
    How to help people? 36.1 > 15 and 33.4.6 > 39
    I teach/counsel/coach people on meditation and other spiritual matters. I asked how best to help people and got
    I don't really understand how you mean 'best to help people', I mean I don't understand that sentence following on from the previous one. It is a burden to set oneself up as a spiritual authority surely which is why Yi says to withdraw ? Teaching yoga and meditation is enough isn't it, that's what you are doing ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojina View Post
    If it feels easy and natural and enlivening that's the same as feeling good but is that feeling the measure of whether people are helped ? I'm not very clear about that.
    This was in response to your earlier suggestion that it was perhaps draining me.

    I don't really understand how you mean 'best to help people', I mean I don't understand that sentence following on from the previous one. It is a burden to set oneself up as a spiritual authority surely which is why Yi says to withdraw ? Teaching yoga and meditation is enough isn't it, that's what you are doing ?
    Unfortunately it is not that simple. Spirituality as I see it goes far beyond some technique or knowledge that can be taught straightforwardly; it is a way of being that touches on the incommunicable. So it is far from obvious how best to convey that and to whom. This is why Zen monks and the like communicated in koans, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidity View Post
    This was in response to your earlier suggestion that it was perhaps draining me.



    Unfortunately it is not that simple. Spirituality as I see it goes far beyond some technique or knowledge that can be taught straightforwardly; it is a way of being that touches on the incommunicable. So it is far from obvious how best to convey that and to whom. This is why Zen monks and the like communicated in koans, for instance.
    I can't see how this is a reply to what I've said I've not said anything about spirituality as technique or knowledge that can be taught and I do of course know spirituality goes beyond practices etc. But I don't know in what way you want to convey something to people, I mean you don't see yourself as a guru do you. You don't generally come across like you think that you are.

    So it is far from obvious how best to convey that and to whom.
    I'm lost. Christ conveyed what he had to everyone though he also did say not to cast pearls before swine but I forget in what context. Do you mean you believe you have something to convey to people that will enhance their spirituality ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojina View Post
    I can't see how this is a reply to what I've said I've not said anything about spirituality as technique or knowledge that can be taught and I do of course know spirituality goes beyond practices etc. But I don't know in what way you want to convey something to people, I mean you don't see yourself as a guru do you. You don't generally come across like you think that you are.
    Depends on what you mean by guru. If by guru you mean spiritual guide or mentor, then yes, absolutely. But I don't act that way here. I'm not a guru here. Here I'm clearly a student of Yi. I said I was a meditation teacher who wanted to know how best to help people; you said -- isn't it enough to teach people to meditate? And I said: what I'm doing goes beyond a simple technique, so teaching it is not straightforward.

    What's confusing about that? Now I'm confused!

    I'm lost. Christ conveyed what he had to everyone though he also did say not to cast pearls before swine but I forget in what context. Do you mean you believe you have something to convey to people that will enhance their spirituality ?
    Yes, that's just what I mean to say.

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    Depends on what you mean by guru. If by guru you mean spiritual guide or mentor, then yes, absolutely.
    I don't see how people can appoint themselves as spiritual guides and mentors quite honestly. Sorry if you find that offensive but that's my view.

    My earlier point when I said

    I guess I have difficulty with the idea of an individual setting out to nourish others spiritually because how would they know when they are doing that ? Who is to say what nourishing others spiritually is and how do you know when you've done it. To my mind being a yoga/meditation teacher is enough in itself, it doesn't come with spiritual authority does it ?
    Why would you think you have more to convey spiritually beyond your work as a yoga/meditation teacher ? Why do you think you are more spiritually advanced than the people you teach ? I don't mean to be rude, I know I sound it, but if you believe you have something to convey to other people to develop their spirituality aren't you putting yourself above them ? How do you know they don't have something to convey to you ?

    That's what I think so that's what I see the 33 cast about, don't become a guru, withdraw from that whole idea, what you are doing in your work is enough. In spirituality develop yourself, I don't see how you can aim to develop other people's. 36.1 go your own way, carry your own light off, don't weaken yourself. You then asked for clarification and got 33.4.6>39 and again it's showing you protecting yourself by withdrawing towards heaven (trigram) In 33 you actually withdraw towards something, it's not just running away. This path leads to struggle so let it go and focus on your own spirituality.

    Other's may see it differently and I'm sure you will but that's my thoughts on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojina View Post
    Other's may see it differently and I'm sure you will but that's my thoughts on it.
    Ok, well, we can agree to disagree on these points. I appreciate your thoughts.

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