...life can be translucent

Menu

Israel and Hezbollah

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Yesterday I asked the Yi for a prognosis of the conflict and the answer was 13.3.4.5 >27.

Looks promising, I think. What I find interesting is that hexagram 27 - apart from its conventional meanings - also seems to show in a more direct way what is going on there. Two forces (the two yang lines) that fight eachother from a distance.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
If you see hexagram 27 as an image of the future (I read it here as an image of the present background situation) it could indicate a neutral zone.
Apart from other things that can be associated with hexagram 27. Perhaps hunger, poverty, or more metaphorically the need to be "fed", people moving back in, rebuilding, and so on.
 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
martin said:
Looks promising, I think.

It depends. Yi is a you hun (wandering soul) hexagram meaning it signifies near death or comatose situations hence they are unfavorable. Given the fact that the problem with Israel and Hezbollah has a long history and the situation has never been on a positive track, to me it shows coma conditions still apply.

The Gui hun (returning soul) hexagram is 18 (Gui) Poison, Decay, Work on what is spoiled. Both 18 and 27 are in the house of Wood the pure hexagram is 57 Xun Gentle. Yet unless I have missed, there has not been any gentleness among them.

In terms of 5 phases (elements ) Hexagram 27, is wood below earth above . If we take the view that things move from bottom up to above then wood is controlling the earth. This is the K'o cycle (controlling cycle) and it is also not promising in my point of view.

So overall I would not call this outcome hexagram a positive one. Hope Jesed enters his comments as well, as I do not use Yi Jing on political matters a lot.

Best wishes
Togan
 
J

jesed

Guest
Hi

I hade made my own dialogue effort about this topic... but the answers lead me to a deeper question. This needs a macrocosmical search to understand well. As I had say, political issues in these days are linked with mayor changes for humanity that (according with Yi's answers to many people in the circle I belong) would come from 2008-2012

I hope to post in a few days the results of my search

Best wishes
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Hmm, I don't know Toganm, your interpretation would probably be spot on if _you_ had asked the question.
But I did ..

I believe that the Yi adapts itself to the mind of the questioner. It will not suddenly give me an answer that requires a method of interpretation that is totally different from the one I'm used to.
And when I consult the Yi I never interpret its answers in terms of K'o cycles or You huns or Gui huns (also not when the subject is politics). I don't even know much about such things, I'm a simple hun. :)
 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
martin said:
Hmm, I don't know Toganm, your interpretation would probably be spot on if _you_ had asked the question.
But I did ..
yet you brought the issue to get other people's point of view :)

martin said:
I believe that the Yi adapts itself to the mind of the questioner.
I would agree on this one :bows:

martin said:
I'm a simple hun. :)
Actually you are who you are because of your Shen. ;)

Best wishes
Togan
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Of course, we are all different and we interpret the answers of the Yi in different ways.
For example, these two forces at a distance that I see in hexagram 27 - it is quite obvious for me and I trust that the Yi knows that I hallucinate such things in hexagrams. :)
So there must be a message for me there. But perhaps it is farfetched for somebody else and there is no message in that idea for them.
This raises the question: can we interpret hexagrams that others receive? I don't know, it's a complicated issue, I think.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Crossed posts Toganm! Will read yours now ..
 
J

jesed

Guest
ps. about 13>27

If I understand you well, you did the cast on July 28, 2006. If that is correct, the answer is quite negative, according with traditional teachings

There are 2 contenders: Contender A (Represented by subject line) and Contender B (Represented by object line). I don't know wich one is Israel and wich one is Hezbollah. (Wich one was most in your mind when asking? Israel or Hezbollah?)

Now:
1.- Contender A is Pig (water) under the Father aspect (power, autority) in a very bad situation, because is destroyed by the month (fire month)

2.- Contender B is Dog (earth) under the Kid aspect (children, good fortune, rebelion). Is in a good situation (supported by the month and produced by the day)

3.- There are 3 moving lines... one in the field of contender A, and 2 in the field of contender B
a) Line 3.. is the subject line (contender A). It moves against object line (Contender B). The resultant is Dragon, wich is in conflict with Dog (contender B)
b) Line 4... is Horse..., under aspect Brothers... it moves to support object line (it means collegues helps contender B). The resultant is Dog, so the contender B is actually reinforced
c) Line 5... is Monkey, under aspect Money. It moves to produce subject line (contender A). The resultant is Rat, supporting subject line, but Rat is void element, so it is not significant

4.- There is a combination of Pig + Rabbit + Goat = Wood is quite strong. Wood reduces water (subject line= contender A) and destroys earth (object line=contender B)

5.- When a weak subject line moves, and transforms itself into its own Grave (in this case, Dragon).. that has a bad fortune to that line.

Interpretation:
Even if contender A is weaker than Contender B, contender A is directly atacking contender B.
That has as consecuence, that some B's allies came to action to support B.
Meanwile, from the same field of B, there are economical support to A, but that support is useless.
At the end, both sides would be hurted... B in a mayor degree than A... but this conflict is harmfull for both

a) If contender A is Hezbollah... its atacks against Haifa (Israel) would produce that USA come into action in Middle East to support Israel... and even from that field, there would be finantial useless support fro Hezbollah. At the end, Israel would suffer more than Hezbollah
b) If contender A is Israel... its atacks against Lebano would produce that Iran or Siria come into action in Middle East to support Hezbollah, and even economical offerings to Israel for peace would be useless. Even if Israel could destroy Hezbollah, the price would be of a mayor suffering from Israel itself.

So, at the end, this answer points as conclusion, a mayor suffering for all in Middle East (of course, one doesn't need Yi Jing to arrive to that conclusion)

Let's pray for Humanity.. it's entire future depends on Middle East's solution.


Best wishes
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
toganm said:
yet you brought the issue to get other people's point of view :)

Yes true, and your comments and those of others are very welcome. :)
But I didn't know that I would post the question and the answer when I asked the question.
Or did I, subconsciously? Or did the Yi know that I would do it?
See, it _is_ complicated! :D
 
J

jesed

Guest
Hi Martin

Yi means, among other meanings, simple. Keep simple, even about this

Diferent ways to interpret the same hexagram.... yes.

In my own experience... most of the time (when the incarnation of image and sense is adecuate, as Wang Pi wanted to be) one reach the same general conclusion, only with some mayor insights and details in one than another.

In this case, if I take the text-analysis... I would say that the conflicts in convivence (13) requieres as solution the independence (27). To achieve this, is needed to not fight, even if you want to do that (lines 3 and 4), so both contenders can live together (line 5)

Now, the answer is not the reality. If one is acting as the answer, one can expect to evolution as the the answer. If one is not acting like the answer, one can expect the other side of the coin of the answer.

So, I would say: Since there is actual fighting (not acting like lines 3 and 4), one cann't expect that they can solve the conflict by living together with independence


Best wishes
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Hi Jesed,

Yes, July 28th probably (but my sense of time is a bit fuzzy these days).
I think when I asked the question what I had in mind was mostly the suffering of the people in that region. Especially in Lebanon where the situation is even worse than in Israel.
 
J

jesed

Guest
Well, that would made Contendient A= Lebanon(Hezbollah) and Contendient B= Israel


Best wishes
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
(according with Yi's answers to many people in the circle I belong)

Qué tal, Rodrigo? Me podrías explicar exactamente a qué círculo perteneces? Curiosidad nomás... :)

About Martin's consult on the 28 of July, why do you relate the date to a "negative" outcome? How is the Gregorian Calendar in any way related to the Yi? Is there a Lunar and/or Zodiacal correspondence you see?

I am just trying to wrap my mind around other people's interpretation of the Yi and yours and Toganm's are interesting ways to see things.
 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
martin said:
Yesterday I asked the Yi for a prognosis of the conflict and the answer was 13.3.4.5 >27.

When there are three moving lines, one takes the middle line in consideration of the consulting.

Now line 4 being a yang line in a yin place is wrong. It is also not central. There is no juxtaposition of the 4th line with lines 3 and 5. there is also no resonance between line 1 and 4. Line 4 overall is a transitional and an uncertain stage . The 4th line also represents the minister.

In Richard John Lynn's translation regarding the 4th line:
"As it is in violation of the norms of righteousness and does damage to moral principles. Fourth Yang does not gain support of masses and this is why in spite of rid[ing] the top of the wall it fails in its attempt "

The good fortune is there if he understands his mistake and return to right principles.
jesed said:
As I had say, political issues in these days are linked with mayor changes for humanity that (according with Yi's answers to many people in the circle I belong) would come from 2008-2012
Is this for this case because line 2 of Tong ren is corresponding with line 2 of Kun which is the clan or the members of the world should maintain firmness, correctness as a superior man. Or what do you mean, maybe I was not following a thread.

Best wishes
Togan
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
I agree with Martin, based on the reading the outlook looks hopeful.

Maybe 27 has to do with opening relations to receive one another? This conflict has been going on for thousands of years in one form or another. Opening relations doesn’t seem like a logical possibility, but who knows?

One thing I’m convinced of based on personal experience: 13.5 does not (as Wilhelm depicts) necessarily lead to a rosy or lasting friendship, and neither does it preclude one. I think it shows that there is potential, but it always takes two to tango. So in that sense, it is entirely conditional. In other words, it doesn’t happen out of intuitive trust, and it won’t be natural or easy to accomplish. Sometimes a mutual humbling is the only means to reconciliation. Chances of that? :confused:
 
J

jesed

Guest
Hi sparhawk

In this case, I used mathematical method (also called "image and number", laso called "Wen Wang Gua"...)

This method doesn't use the text, but other kind of rules, to understand the answer.

One can adcribe to each line one of the 12 Sacred Animals (and that implies calendaric references); and one of the 6 relationships; and one of the 6 spirits.
 
J

jesed

Guest
Hi Togan

That comment wasn't based on Martin's reading.

Several people had receive Yi's answers advicing about mayor changes for Humanity that would happen from 2008-2012.

Many day-by-day conflicts (not only political, but even familiar) has its roots in that macrocosmical changes for humanity.

That is why, in the case of Middle East conflict (that is more complex than just Israel-Hezbollah), the answer I received from Yi's lead me to made a new searching, in the macrocosmical realm. I hope to post that answer in a few days.

Best wishes
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Based on the reading I'm still optimistic, although I don't know how long it will take and how much suffering is still to come. I also don't know if it means that some of the deeper problems (not only this particular conflict) will be solved.
We'll see.

The latest news is that Israel - after the terrible drama in Qana - agrees to suspend aerial activity (or even all military activity, that's not entirely clear) in Lebanon for 48 hours to allow people to leave and to allow for humanitarian aid.
With one exception, Israel can intervene when its intelligence spots rockets that are about to be launched.
Apparently the USA asked for this.
It's at least something - hopefully there is more to come.
 
J

jesed

Guest
mmm.... USA asking for humanitarian aid to Lebanon, while stops Security Council's resolution against Israel

Don't know, maybe I'm too pesimist, but that sounds close to ...

jesed said:
a) If contender A is Hezbollah... its atacks against Haifa (Israel) would produce that USA come into action in Middle East to support Israel... and even from that field, there would be finantial useless support fro Hezbollah. At the end, Israel would suffer more than Hezbollah


I hope to be wrong

Best wishes
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Just as an afterthought: 27 can represent hunger and consumerism. 13 can mean ‘the brethren’. Consuming ones brothers.

Yi speaks, or has the capacity to speak, from the impartial perspective. Taking sides is something it seeks to avoid. We, on the other hand, are full of opinions of right and wrong. Our scales are biased and partial, no matter how much we try to free ourselves of our own tunnel vision and tainted lenses.
 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
Hi Jesed
That is why, in the case of Middle East conflict (that is more complex than just Israel-Hezbollah), the answer I received from Yi's lead me to made a new searching, in the macrocosmical realm. I hope to post that answer in a few days.

Looking forward to your interpretation

Best wishes

Togan
 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
martin said:
The latest news is that Israel - after the terrible drama in Qana - agrees to suspend aerial activity (or even all military activity, that's not entirely clear) in Lebanon for 48 hours to allow people to leave and to allow for humanitarian aid.

This makes it in line with line 4 as I interprete it .http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=36768&postcount=15

bruce_g said:
Maybe 27 has to do with opening relations to receive one another?
27 is also related with words that comes out of the mouth. It is what one says and how says to provide nourishment. That is why the image says "superior man is carefull of his words"

But overall wishing to be wrong, I still do not see the outcome of the 13.3.4.5>27 as a positive one in this case.

Best wishes
Togan
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Hi Toganm,

If you focus on line 4 - according to the rule that the second line is the most relevant if there are 3 changing lines - it doesn't look so good. I agree.
Another method is to first read line 3, then change it, which gives hexagram 25, then read line 4 in that hexagram, and so on.

I'm a little bit :) suspicious of such methods, so I rarely use them.
I read the 3 lines (13.3.4.5) in this case succesively as a developing story that seems to have a more or less happy end in line 5, although even that line mentions suffering (weeping, lamenting).

On the other hand, there were unexpected developments over the weekend and hexagram 25 - a hexagram that you get with the second method - can indicate unforeseen events. Following that method the 'story' would end with 42.5 and that doesn't sound bad at all. :)

Well, I don't know. Perhaps I'm way too optimistic.
But I see this also as an exercise. Or an investigation into how the I Ching "works". By comparing the actual events with what the I Ching seems to say I can learn something about what it really says.
Before the last presidential elections in the USA somebody posted an answer of the I Ching about it on this forum. I thought it indicated, contrary to the opinions of others, that Bush would win.
And somewhat to my own surprise :eek: I was right. :)
I can only hope that I'm also right in this case. This should stop, the sooner the better.
 
Last edited:

cassius_clay

visitor
Joined
Nov 14, 1970
Messages
100
Reaction score
6
Here is my 2 cents....

13 T’ung Jên - Fellowship with Men
13.0 - The Judgement

Success is dependent on your ability to broaden your fellowship to include people who do not share the attributes you hold most dearly (spiritual values, blood relation, social values, life-style, etc.). You must approach things in a way that equally benefits everyone. To insure such selflessness, you may have to conquer your fears and/or the wrong ideas that are the sources of selfishness. Fear will inspire you to factional alliances, clannishness, covert actions, etc. Everything must be done in the open, and all actions that could be construed as incorrect must be avoided.
Success: You can proceed and succeed in your endeavors if you receive and perfect the counsel of lines 5 and 6.

Recommended Reports
1. Divine Law Meditation
2. Balancing the Life-force
3. Kidney Tonification

13.3 - Line 3
Circumstances have brought you into close contact with others outside of your fellowship comfort zone. Therefore, you adopt a strategy of trying to catch your “opponent” in the wrong by surprise. You mistrust the person and conclude that he too does the same. If continued, such behavior feeds the alienation, yet you blame the other person for the lack of fellowship and whatever else goes wrong.

13.4 - Line 4
Since you are in a situation where achieving fellowship is the way to proceed, it is best to avoid fighting as a means of resolving conflicts and opposition. Good fortune is assured, even though one is not at the point of achieving success in one’s undertakings through fellowship. Resolution of the difficulty will most likely be found through reflecting and dwelling on the good points of others, instead of their shortcomings.

13.5 - Line 5
This line indicates the overcoming of difficulties that were experienced in cultivating fellowship with others outside of our closest sphere of union (family, close friends), yet share common values-or with friends with whom we have estranged. Good fortune.

27 I - The Corners of The Mouth (Providing Nourishment)
27.0 - The Judgement

In many situations in life, it is necessary to find out what people are like in an objective manner, before a commitment is made to involve ourselves with them. The counsel given in this hexagram teaches how to accomplish this. Once you learn this lesson, you will also see how others learn about you through your actions. It will explain a great deal about why many things in your life are just not happening.
Some of the ways in which people reveal which part of the spirit they function out of, is through the company they keep, through which part of their body or themselves they cultivate, through their choices of food, through the subjects they prefer to converse about, through their pursuits, and so on.
Recommended Reports
1. Balancing the Life-force
2. Divine Law Meditation
3. Mindfulness Meditation



In a nutshell maybe the I Ching its saying that if the folks over there want to end that conflict they are going to have to stop being "clicksish", biased, stop mistrusting each other, do things in the open and learn about each other with no prejudice. Thats what they should do but will they follow that? Probably not. Interesting reading right there though. Peace.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Finally a truce today, much later than I hoped ...
The answer of the IC makes sense in a general way (13 being a central theme here, more specified in the lines) but it's hard to say if it can be regarded as "predictive" in any concrete sense. Also because I didn't use a time window in my question.
Till now all wars ended sooner or later, you don't need an oracle to predict that. We would like to know WHEN they end ..

Meanwhile it is still very uncertain if this truce will hold. There was a lot of talk about the complete disarmament of Hezbollah but it seems that nobody cares anymore at the moment.
Many casualties, a country in ruins - it looks like it is all for nothing again. The problems remain as yet unsolved. :(
 
Last edited:
J

jesed

Guest
martin said:
The problems remain as yet unsolved. :(

Oh yes...

The "problem" (from a macrocosmical point of view) is a current social reorganization of the Clans living in the Middle East; clans that are described like active-hostile (37.3) because they lost the deepness of their spiritual forms to just remain attached into cultural-religious formalism (2.3 as microcosmical cause).

But this suffering and risky Path (the Path of Water.. future effect hexagram) could lead to a karmic liberation (Macrocosmical Ruler Hexagram), something like the sense of the symbol of the Baustism of Water.


(This is the macrocosmical answer I got for the situation in Middle East; I'll post the full analysis on my blog in a few days)

Best wishes
 

ashplus

visitor
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
18
Reaction score
1
Some hebrew linguists translate 'Israel' to mean 'God is at war'. Maybe a name change would help a little:confused:
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top